Doug Matthews just reiterated...

#601
#601
columbia vol said:
I didn’t like it at first, but was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because nobody knew how it would turn out. Couple of good on paper recruiting classes and winning some games gave everyone hope. Soon the cliches and lack of player development was clearly evident that we were going nowhere. If you are trying to get me to compare him to CPF I think is a stretch to say the least.
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I'm talking bottom line, Ws and Ls. Not "brick by brick" or "work like heck"

Phil won about 88% (outstanding) of his games thru the NC year (98).

That dropped to 73% (still very good) from 99' - 04'

It dropped again from 05'-08' to 58%.
* the Band Guy won 56% percent while he was here.

No one is saying the Flute Man's tenure here equaled Phil's tenure here. But the point still stands the slide started under Phil and the program slipped a ton after a great early run under him. The numbers dont lie.
 
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#602
#602
VolunteerHillbilly said:
I don't think that whatever is happening now is Fulmer's fault from his head coaching days. There are things that happened during the last 6-7 years of his tenure, which, had those things not happened, we probably would not have been down for nearly as long as we have. Specifically, I am referring to the slide in recruiting, the academic fraud issues that let let Cheek get his claws in the program when they transferred control of the AD from the president to the chancellor and the ensuing issues, and all of the off the field garbage that led to the Fulmer Cup. Those were all things that did not have to happen. Then there's the more subjective, but widely accepted, conclusion that the staff just got complacent after 1998 and they were not prepared to do what had to be done to keep up with Saban, Richt, Meyer, etc. If CPF had taken Vicky's advice and retired after 1998, none of these discussions would ever happen.
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What I am about to say may be a thread topic all its own, but I am not sure some of Tennessee's problems could have been prevented.

What has always been Tennessee's biggest obstacle to success is that they have to poach talent from out of state to be successful. For example, I can't remember the last Tennessee QB from Tennessee. Shuler, Manning, Martin, Clausen, Ainge, Crompton, Bray, Dobbs, current qb (not going to butcher his name). (went and looked it up) Andy Kelly was the last QB from Tennessee. But, a lot of Tennessee's standout all-SEC guys were not from Tennessee.

Well, around 2001....you have Saban at LSU, Richt at Georgia, and Bowden at Clemson (who could recruit). Soon after, you'd have Spurrier at Carolina, Meyer at Florida, Miles at LSU, Saban at Alabama and a little later Dabo at Clemson.

All of those programs, even today (some 10 or more years later), are better off than they were in the mid 1990's. I don't think anyone could argue otherwise with the exception of Florida. And the thing about Florida is everyone is recruiting the state of Florida. That's not to mention the Mississippi schools which I think can be said to be better than they were in the mid 1990's. I didn't even mention Auburn in all of this.

Long story short, life is a hell of a lot harder as a Tennessee coach than it was in 1995 when Ray Goff was at Georgia, Tommy West was at Clemson, Gerry Dinardo is at LSU, the Mississippi schools were not very good, etc.

I mean at that time, correct me if I am wrong, but Tennessee pretty much got what they wanted from certain parts of North and South Carolina.

It's just more difficult all the way around.
 
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#604
#604
a867d8446fba35f17a08f30152e6d749.jpg
 
#605
#605
99gator said:
What I am about to say may be a thread topic all it's own, but I am not sure Tennessee's problems could have been prevented.

What has always been Tennessee's biggest obstacle to success is that they have to poach talent from out of state to be successful. For example, I can't remember the last Tennessee QB from Tennessee. Shuler, Manning, Martin, Clausen, Ainge, Crompton, Bray, Dobbs, current qb (not going to butcher his name). (went and looked it up) Andy Kelly was the last QB from Tennessee. But, a lot of Tennessee's standout all-SEC guys were not from Tennessee.

Well, around 2001....you have Saban at LSU, Richt at Georgia, and Bowden at Clemson (who could recruit). Soon after, you'd have Spurrier at Carolina, Meyer at Florida, Miles at LSU, Saban at Alabama and a little later Dabo at Clemson.

All of those programs, even today, are better off than they were in the mid 1990's. I don't think anyone could argue otherwise with the exception of Florida. And the thing about Florida is everyone is recruiting the state of Florida. That's not to mention the Mississippi schools which I think can be said to be better than they were in the mid 1990's. I didn't even mention Auburn in all of this.

Long story short, life is a hell of a lot harder as a Tennessee coach than it was in 1995 when Ray Goff was at Georgia, Tommy West was at Clemson, Gerry Dinardo is at LSU, the Mississippi schools were not very good, etc.

I mean at that time, correct me if I am wrong, but Tennessee pretty much got what they wanted from certain parts of North and South Carolina.

It's just more difficult all the way around.
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Agree that it's more difficult.

Wouldn't agree that it should result in what it has however.
 
#606
#606
MurphyVol said:
I think you guys are right on the verge of changing each other's minds.
Problem is, then you'll be arguing with each other on opposite points.

OMG It's a paradox
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It's not even really about that. The slide started with Fulmer. He wasnt fixing it. The fact that UT hasn't fixed it since doesnt change that.

It also doesnt mean you can disregard Fulmers success either. The numbers dont lie there either.
 
#608
#608
BeecherVol said:
I'm talking bottom line, Ws and Ls. Not "brick by brick" or "work like heck"

Phil won about 88% (outstanding) of his games thru the NC year (98).

That dropped to 73% (still very good) from 99' - 04'

It dropped again from 05'-08' to 58%.
* the Band Guy won 56% percent while he was here.

No one is saying the Flute Man's tenure here equaled Phil's tenure here. But the point still stands the slide started under Phil and the program slipped a ton after a great early run under him. The numbers dont lie.
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Well I’ll take CPF last 10 yrs vs the last 10 we’ve had all day long.
 
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#609
#609
99gator said:
What I am about to say may be a thread topic all it's own, but I am not sure Tennessee's problems could have been prevented.

What has always been Tennessee's biggest obstacle to success is that they have to poach talent from out of state to be successful. For example, I can't remember the last Tennessee QB from Tennessee. Shuler, Manning, Martin, Clausen, Ainge, Crompton, Bray, Dobbs, current qb (not going to butcher his name). (went and looked it up) Andy Kelly was the last QB from Tennessee. But, a lot of Tennessee's standout all-SEC guys were not from Tennessee.

Well, around 2001....you have Saban at LSU, Richt at Georgia, and Bowden at Clemson (who could recruit). Soon after, you'd have Spurrier at Carolina, Meyer at Florida, Miles at LSU, Saban at Alabama and a little later Dabo at Clemson.

All of those programs, even today, are better off than they were in the mid 1990's. I don't think anyone could argue otherwise with the exception of Florida. And the thing about Florida is everyone is recruiting the state of Florida. That's not to mention the Mississippi schools which I think can be said to be better than they were in the mid 1990's. I didn't even mention Auburn in all of this.

Long story short, life is a hell of a lot harder as a Tennessee coach than it was in 1995 when Ray Goff was at Georgia, Tommy West was at Clemson, Gerry Dinardo is at LSU, the Mississippi schools were not very good, etc.

I mean at that time, correct me if I am wrong, but Tennessee pretty much got what they wanted from certain parts of North and South Carolina.

It's just more difficult all the way around.
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You just hit the proverbial nail on the head. If I remember correctly there was a part in The Blind Side where several other SEC coaches were disappointed that Fulmer was recruiting one of their targets. This pretty much sums up our recruiting in that time period. We plucked the Darwin Walkers out of the Carolina's....the John Henderson's stayed home to play for their home state and there was plenty of talent to be divided among the top 4-5 top SEC programs.

The timing of it all was perfect for a program killer. The rest of the SEC getting better....UT sliding downward....poor handling of the Fulmer decision, mostly how it was executed....and the incompetence of the people responsible for making the right hires from that point on.
 
#611
#611
MurphyVol said:
I think you guys are right on the verge of changing each other's minds.
Problem is, then you'll be arguing with each other on opposite points.

OMG It's a paradox
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#612
#612
99gator said:
No doubt about that
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To add to this,

I think it's one of those things where Tennessee should be a consistent 8-4 most years. Even if you're not getting those top 3-5 classes that won titles anymore, you still have enough talent to where you should be what is essentially Bo Pelini's Nebraska program or Butch's 2015 and 2016 seasons most years -- an 8-4 or 7-5 each year with a decent or okay bowl game on average. Some years you go 10-2, some years you go 6-6 or 5-7. That's where I think Tennessee can be right now on a consistent basis.
 
#613
#613
99gator said:
What I am about to say may be a thread topic all it's own, but I am not sure Tennessee's problems could have been prevented.

I mean at that time, correct me if I am wrong, but Tennessee pretty much got what they wanted from certain parts of North and South Carolina.

It's just more difficult all the way around.
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Not saying you are wrong but it still about recruiting, coaching, relationships, stable staffs w/cred, Standards and Accountability and fulfilling dream or providing the right opportunity for that to happen....

Right Kids, your system, your shot to make it happen as a coach....Hopefully CJP and Staff puts his signature on this team and it is successful....
 
#614
#614
I should clarify that from my previous post that I did not mean to imply that....

1. Things were bound to or should ever get this bad. There is no excuse for the program getting to the point it has.

2. That the fact it’s more difficult means it can’t be done. It can be done.

What I was implying was some sort of slide from the 90’s level of success was likely to occur because of those other factors
 
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#615
#615
columbia vol said:
Well I’ll take CPF last 10 yrs vs the last 10 we’ve had all day long.
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I would as well. But that also doesnt change the fact that Phil's winning percentage had dropped 30% from his most successful span in the 90s and he was trending the wrong way over the last 4, which was the beginning of UTs fall.
 
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#616
#616
I agree with the statement that we waited too long with Phil. He should have been gone after 2005. Started ranked #2 in the nation and had that disaster season.

Johnny Majors was fired after a 3 loss season, 2 years beyond an SEC championship/Sugar Bowl win, with a loaded roster at that. It paid off and Tennessee won the NC a short time later. Had Johnny not won 5 in a row in 1988 he'd have been fired then.

Auburn fired Tommy Tuberville a few years after going 13-0. He had a loaded roster. It paid off with a National title a short while later.

Mike Shula won 10 games and finished 8th in the nation. Two years later Bama canned him and went all in for Saban. They did the same thing to Curry before they hired Stallings. And Ray Perkins before Curry (we got really lucky they picked Curry, Bobby Bowden wanted the job). They don't sit around waiting on the program to collapse because they have loyalty to a man. They'd fire Saban if he went 5-7 two times in the next 4 years.

Plenty of examples of firing a guy leading to better things, but not many in the modern SEC where you recover after going sub .500 years into your tenure.
 
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#617
#617
99gator said:
I should clarify that from my previous post that I did not mean to imply that....

1. Things were bound to or should ever get this bad. There is no excuse for the program getting to the point it has.

2. That the fact it’s more difficult means it can’t be done. It can be done.

What I was implying was some sort of slide from the 90’s level of success was likely to occur because of those other factors
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The Sports Illustrated-worthy academic fraud scandal continues to be forgotten, overlooked, and ignored, but it added to all of the factors you summarized. Most programs have issues; few rise to the level of notoriety that this aspect of UT football did and I believe still does, and it continues to reverberate to this very day.
 
#618
#618
VolArmy74 said:
I agree with the statement that we waited too long with Phil. He should have been gone after 2005. Started ranked #2 in the nation and had that disaster season.

Johnny Majors was fired after a 3 loss season, 2 years beyond an SEC championship/Sugar Bowl win, with a loaded roster at that. It paid off and Tennessee won the NC a short time later. Had Johnny not won 5 in a row in 1988 he'd have been fired then.

Auburn fired Tommy Tuberville a few years after going 13-0. He had a loaded roster. It paid off with a National title a short while later.

Mike Shula won 10 games and finished 8th in the nation. Two years later Bama canned him and went all in for Saban. They did the same thing to Curry before they hired Stallings. And Ray Perkins before Curry (we got really lucky they picked Curry, Bobby Bowden wanted the job). They don't sit around waiting on the program to collapse because they have loyalty to a man. They'd fire Saban if he went 5-7 two times in the next 4 years.

Plenty of examples of firing a guy leading to better things, but not many in the modern SEC where you recover after going sub .500 years into your tenure.
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Yeah I’m sure if they had fired him 3 years earlier we would be rolling right now. Who’s to say if they had let him try to right the ship that he wouldn’t have? No one knows the answers to any of these questions. But I think everyone can agree we have been a sh!tshow since he left.
 
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#620
#620
KBVol said:
He “inserts himself” when asked to directly by the first-year/first-time head coach he hired last year.
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How do you know Pruitt asked? The way I understood it was Fulmer asked if he could help. Are you going to tell your boss no?
 
#622
#622
columbia vol said:
Yeah I’m sure if they had fired him 3 years earlier we would be rolling right now. Who’s to say if they had let him try to right the ship that he wouldn’t have? No one knows the answers to any of these questions. But I think everyone can agree we have been a sh!tshow since he left.
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The number of other programs who did it that way (and UT as well) and had it work shows that we'd likely be in better shape. As someone else pointed out, the roster was in much better shape in 2005 than 2008. The OL and DL were disasters when Kiffin got here.
 
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#623
#623
VolArmy74 said:
The number of other programs who did it that way (and UT as well) and had it work shows that we'd likely be in better shape. As someone else pointed out, the roster was in much better shape in 2005 than 2008. The OL and DL were disasters when Kiffin got here.
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Not this bad!
 
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#624
#624
VolArmy74 said:
The number of other programs who did it that way (and UT as well) and had it work shows that we'd likely be in better shape. As someone else pointed out, the roster was in much better shape in 2005 than 2008. The OL and DL were disasters when Kiffin got here.
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I guess none of the 11 players he ran off were ol or dL.
 
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