Discrepancies in National Championships

#51
#51
BigPapaVol said:
I can't. Post almost exclusively from my cell. What did I miss?
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The NCAA Committee on Infractions called the University of Alabama a "serial repeat violator" with an "abysmal infractions track record" and an "extensive recent history of infractions cases unmatched by any other member institution in the NCAA."
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:hi:
 
#57
#57
You know...the best thing about "Got 12?" ; "Got 13?" ; or "Got 63?" or whatever the hell those people swaddle themselves in is that the answer to all their questions is the same.

No...and neither do you.
 
#58
#58
The Sentinel said:
You know...the best thing about "Got 12?" ; "Got 13?" ; or "Got 63?" or whatever the hell those people swaddle themselves in is that the answer to all their questions is the same.

No...and neither do you.
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The best thing about them is they start a stupid thread and we get to rag on them in it. Then they disappear.
 
#62
#62
CrimsonPride13 said:
Tennessee claims the following 6 national titles:

1938
1940
1950
1951
1967
1998

In 1938, Tennessee went 11-0 and won the Orange Bowl, yet did not finish as #1 in either the AP or UPI poll. They did finish #1 in several other polls, like Houlgate, Dunkel, and Billingsley. These are some of the very same "retroactive" polls that are used as ammunition to discredit Alabama's titles. TCU was also undefeated and won the AP title.

In 1940, TN went 10-1 and LOST in the Sugar Bowl. Losing in a bowl game has widely been used as a means of discrediting Alabama's claimed titles, but we see here that TN uses the same system. Tennessee's national title is based on their recognition by Dunkel and Williamson, NOT the AP or UPI. Minnesota and Stanford were also BOTH UNDEFEATED in the 1940 season.

In 1950, Tennessee went 11-1, which was the same record that Kentucky had that year, though Tennessee did beat Kentucky. They did, however, lose to a Mississippi State team with a losing record. Oklahoma also had 1 loss and was awarded BOTH the AP and UPI titles, but Tennessee claims this one anyway.

In 1951, Tennessee (10-1) won the AP title, despite the fact that Michigan State AND Maryland were both undefeated and untied. Georgia Tech and Illinois were also both undefeated, though each team had a tie. So, among the 5 teams that claim some form of a national title in 1951, Tennessee was the only team with a loss.

In 1967, Tennessee went 9-2 and lost in the Orange Bowl. USC and Oklahoma were both 10-1, and USC claimed BOTH the UPI and AP titles. In the Orange Bowl, the Volunteers faced Oklahoma and lost. So, despite finishing with 2 losses and losing to a team with a better record (remind anyone of 'Bama in 1941?), Tennessee claims a title for 1967.

The 1998 Tennessee team, though perhaps the luckiest team to ever win a BCS title (even compared to '02 Ohio State and '07 LSU), earned arguably the only completely legitimate title for the Volunteers.


Just wondering what the excuse for this will be...RTR :lolabove:
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The only discrepancy I see is you, a 'Bama fan. Your family must be so proud.
 
#63
#63
I've always said that you go with whatever systems/polls for determining champions were in place during the years in question. No retroactive titles.

1938

Tennessee​

1st-N-Goal
Angelo Louisa
Bernie McCarty
Bill Libby
Billingsley Report
Boand System
Bob Royce
Century Football Index
Cliff Morgan
College Football Researchers Association
Dunkel System
Earl Jessen
Edward Litkenhous
Harry Frye
Houlgate System
James Howell
Jim Koger
Loren Maxwell
Massy Ratings
Mel Smith
Nutshell Sports Football Ratings

Poling System
Ray Bryne
Sagarin Ratings​



1940

Tennessee​

Dunkel System
Williamson System​


Not sure about Williamson, but Dunkel's system started in 1929. So, this title is not retroactive.

1950

Tennessee​

Angelo Louisa
Bernie McCarty
Billingsley Report
Century Football Index
College Football Researchers Association
Dunkel System
Earl Jessen
Harry DeVold
Harry Frye
James Howell
James Whalen
Jeff Self
Loren Maxwell
Massy Ratings
National Championship Foundation

Patrick Premo
Soren Sorensen
The Fleming System​




1951
Tennessee​

1st-N-Goal
Allen Smith
Associated Press
Bob Royce
College Football USA
Edward Litkenhous
Jim Koger

Montgomery Full Season Championship
United Press
Williamson System​



1967
Tennessee
Edward Litkenhous​

This is, admittedly, a very shaky title to be claiming. We'll take it down when you take down your retroactive titles.

1998
No explanation needed here. Yes, we got lucky against Arkansas, but pretty much every champion has needed a bit of luck somewhere.
 
#64
#64
ukvols said:
pretty much every champion has needed a bit of luck somewhere
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but none greater than the bammers, and the overwhelming luck they got in the rose bowl -- the star and absolute crucial, key player for texas taken out for good on the 1st series.

given the fake punt fiasco, texas looking much better prepared while the alabubbas looked a bit flat, the quick 14-0 that would have been if mccoy was in the game, the open receivers missed by the backup texas QB, and a different mindset of the texas D if their team had been intact, well, the trophy tour of rural walmarts would have been a mere fantasy.
 
#66
#66
tvolsfan said:
Was the Litkenhous ever a recognized poll?
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Yes...at least as recognized as any others at the time. Litkenhous, Dunkel, and others all formulated separate mathematical formulas to devise a champion. Wheteher one would agree with the various formulas is obviously up for debate.
 
#69
#69
Alright, let’s just put this out there.

1) As for the maroon wave’s “13’ titles, the obvious oddball is 1941. That year, 1 out of a possible 40 recognized NC selectors picked Bammer who lost 3 games, finshed 3rd in the SEC, and 20th in the AP final poll. The one that picked them was Houlgate and only Bammer recognizes this title. Their official excuse is that Houlgate was “the more established and credible source” as compared to the AP and the other 38. I don’t think any further explanation is needed but let’s keep this Houlgate thing in mind for the next 2 claims.
2) 1926 – Bammer had 12 of 36 NC selectors but Navy had the “more credible” Houlgate…hmmm.
3) 1930 – Bammer had 7 of 36 NC selectors but the Notre Dame had the “more credible” Houlgate and the other 29 to boot…double hmmm.
4) 1934 – Bammer had 11 of the 40 NC selectors while Minnesota had the other 29. Bammer did get Houlgate here.
5) 1965 – Bammer had 11 of the 40 NC selectors (no more Houlgate) while Michigan St. had 27 of the remaining 29 including the UPI. This is interesting because the UPI was still selecting their NC prior to bowl games and would continue to do so until…
6) 1973 – Bammer had 5 of a possible 43 NC selectors with the UPI pre-bowl included. Notre Dame beat Bammer in the Sugar Bowl and the UPI was threatened with pollster death unless it went post bowl (like the AP – who selected Notre Dame). The UPI made the change for the next season.

So, if Bammer wants ‘41…it looks like they will have to give up ’26 and ’30. So now we’re down to 11. In ’34, they get their beloved Houlgate but it’s pretty obvious that they were not favored in the “Pre Major Poll Era”, if you will so I go MN – thus, Bammer is at 10. ’65 is a toss up as Bammer finishes 9-1-1 with a loss to UGA and a tie to the Vols but they did win their Bowl game while Mich St finished 10-1 losing 14-12 to UCLA in the Rose Bowl. I give them half credit so now we have 9.5. Finally, ’73, common sense prevails here so Notre Dame gets it, Bammer doesn’t.

Final tally – 8.5 and since I like to round up, you Bammer’s can go ahead and have the full 9 if it makes you feel better.
 
#70
#70
The Sentinel said:
I'm not sure how long it mattered but it ran from 1934-1984.
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At some point, the college football world decided to only recognize the champions declared by the AP and coaches' polls. Without looking that up, my guess is that it happened at or about the same time those polls started waiting until after the bowl games to issue their final rankings.
 
#72
#72
CrimsonPride13 said:
Tennessee claims the following 6 national titles:

1938
1940
1950
1951
1967
1998

In 1938, Tennessee went 11-0 and won the Orange Bowl, yet did not finish as #1 in either the AP or UPI poll. They did finish #1 in several other polls, like Houlgate, Dunkel, and Billingsley. These are some of the very same "retroactive" polls that are used as ammunition to discredit Alabama's titles. TCU was also undefeated and won the AP title.

In 1940, TN went 10-1 and LOST in the Sugar Bowl. Losing in a bowl game has widely been used as a means of discrediting Alabama's claimed titles, but we see here that TN uses the same system. Tennessee's national title is based on their recognition by Dunkel and Williamson, NOT the AP or UPI. Minnesota and Stanford were also BOTH UNDEFEATED in the 1940 season.

In 1950, Tennessee went 11-1, which was the same record that Kentucky had that year, though Tennessee did beat Kentucky. They did, however, lose to a Mississippi State team with a losing record. Oklahoma also had 1 loss and was awarded BOTH the AP and UPI titles, but Tennessee claims this one anyway.

In 1951, Tennessee (10-1) won the AP title, despite the fact that Michigan State AND Maryland were both undefeated and untied. Georgia Tech and Illinois were also both undefeated, though each team had a tie. So, among the 5 teams that claim some form of a national title in 1951, Tennessee was the only team with a loss.

In 1967, Tennessee went 9-2 and lost in the Orange Bowl. USC and Oklahoma were both 10-1, and USC claimed BOTH the UPI and AP titles. In the Orange Bowl, the Volunteers faced Oklahoma and lost. So, despite finishing with 2 losses and losing to a team with a better record (remind anyone of 'Bama in 1941?), Tennessee claims a title for 1967.

The 1998 Tennessee team, though perhaps the luckiest team to ever win a BCS title (even compared to '02 Ohio State and '07 LSU), earned arguably the only completely legitimate title for the Volunteers.


Just wondering what the excuse for this will be...RTR :lolabove:
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Until there is a playoff, I don't mind any school recognizing a national title awarded by any respectable poll; it its day or otherwise. So enjoy your 13th.

Every team that wins the MNC has to be lucky. Bama did it this year with a blocked FG. UT did it in 98 with a goofy fumble. But no team has had better BCS luck than that 07 LSU team. Hell, that team did it without a competent coach.
 
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