Difference between Malzahn, Chip Kelly, and CJH

#26

BigBadVol

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#26
Rule changes have helped offenses tremendously.The QB is more protected and can draw a penalty if anyone breathes on him.Offensive coaches are finding athletes who can play multiple positions without substituting leaving defensive personnel on the field creating mismatches.
This is spot on. How many times do you now see mismatches because the defense can’t substitute?
 
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#27

vettefool

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#27
Malzahn and Kelly built their careers being offensive geniuses only to fade later in their careers.

Looking for posters with some solid football knowledge to reply here.

Does CJH run an offense that can last longer than 5 years before becoming average?
In my opinion the spread is just a variation of the single wing. The main difference is that in the single wing the tailback (Q.B. in the spread) was always a runner 1st. but could pass adequately. If some of the old single wing coaches had opened up the offense it might have made the T formation obsolete. For you younger people watch some of the films on YouTube and see what you think.
 
#28

wmcovol

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#28
It’s about recruiting talent to run your offense. Auburns offensive talent has been alittle lacking last couple years. His Qb has to be a strong running threat. The last 2 QBs haven’t scared many people running.
 
#29

VFL-82-JP

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#29
It comes down to if they can adapt. That is one reason Saban stays at the top and why Pruitt crashed
I don't think Pruitt crashed because of anything to do with adaptation to a changing game.

The proximate cause of Pruitt's collapse is cheating by his staff (probably with his support, but we'll never really know).

But the deeper cause of Pruitt's collapse is a lack of leadership. He simply is not a very good leader. Doesn't have good inter-personal skills. Doesn't inspire. Doesn't have character. Doesn't have a tangible, resilient values system.

Now, would he be intelligent enough to adapt if he'd remained a head coach long enough to see significant change in the game? We can't know that. But that's not what killed him. Lack of leadership and cheating killed him as a head coach.
 
#30

wmcovol

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#30
I don't think Pruitt crashed because of anything to do with adaptation to a changing game.

The proximate cause of Pruitt's collapse is cheating by his staff (probably with his support, but we'll never really know).

But the deeper cause of Pruitt's collapse is a lack of leadership. He simply is not a very good leader. Doesn't have good inter-personal skills. Doesn't inspire.

Now, would he be intelligent enough to adapt if he'd remained a head coach long enough to see significant change in the game? We can't know that. But that's not what killed him. Lack of leadership and cheating killed him as a head coach.
Agree, Pruitt just doesn’t have head coach DNA. How Fulmer saw that in him is beyond me but then again, the worst thing Fulmer did as a HC was replace assistant coaches.
 
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#31

Daniel_Lincolns_Foot

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#31
Oh yeah, one more thing. Up tempo is no longer new to the SEC. The idea that you can wear the defense out by going fast, well...at Bama, Ole Miss, MSU, UGA, UF...they all practice versus that daily.
I think the up-tempo is evolving from "wear down the defense" to "catch the defense off guard."

More important than any conditioning is setting up a system of communication where plays are called and executed so quickly, with such small variations to the same formations, that it doesn't matter how conditioned the defense is--they are not going to be able to even guess what's coming at them.
 
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#32
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#32
In my opinion the spread is just a variation of the single wing. The main difference is that in the single wing the tailback (Q.B. in the spread) was always a runner 1st. but could pass adequately. If some of the old single wing coaches had opened up the offense it might have made the T formation obsolete. For you younger people watch some of the films on YouTube and see what you think.
My dad used to say the exact same thing. He was a wingback in the single wing back in the 40s. He was in awe the first time he saw Tim Tebow running Urban Meyer's offense. He said in his day Tebow might have been the biggest guy on the field and likely would have been on the line instead of the backfield. So yeah, times change, but offenses tend to get recycled with updated features that force defenses to adapt.
 
#33

sami

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#33
This isn't rocket science, but the two keys are adaptability and recruiting of good players who fit the system, and not necessarily in that order.

All the talk about Saban's adaptability is true and very much to his credit, but it's also made a hell of a lot easier with 4 and 5-star players at the skill positions and across the OL, and the ability to coach them up. At this level, any system will only be as good as the quality of players recruited and the how well the coaching staff can grow the talent, and no one has ever been better at it than Saban.
 
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#34
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#34
Malzahn and Kelly built their careers being offensive geniuses only to fade later in their careers.

Looking for posters with some solid football knowledge to reply here.

Does CJH run an offense that can last longer than 5 years before becoming average?
The one thing I like about CJH is he calls plays according to the strength of his play makers. You can watch some of the UCF games on YouTube and see this. That is what we have been missing is a coach that utilizes the playmakers strengths. Not to be attacked but Lane showed this while here, Dooley could have done the same but ran recruits away with his arrogance, Butch tried to run the RPO with a QB that had the mobility of a dump truck. The exception was Dobbs and he did great but could have been coached better. Pruitt tried to run an Alabama pre 1999 O with Slippery Rock players (especially at QB). I’m not saying CJH is the second coming of Saban, but I think he will play to the O strengths.
 
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#35

BondJamesBond

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#35
Once upon a time, the wishbone, properly executed, was considered unstoppable. Then speed and assignment defense caught up. Defense always seems to catch up.

There is no unstoppable offensive scheme. A great coach must evolve his approach, regardless of what his current scheme is. If he doesn't, he will be out in a few years.
 
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#36

WilcoVolsFan

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#36
All the talk about Saban's adaptability is true and very much to his credit, but it's also made a hell of a lot easier with 4 and 5-star players at the skill positions and across the OL, and the ability to coach them up. At this level, any system will only be as good as the quality of players recruited and the how well the coaching staff can grow the talent, and no one has ever been better at it than Saban.
Spot on. Saban will go down as the best modern era college football coach and a solid argument can be made that he's the all-time best.

But Saban also got lucky. If LSU doesn't offer him the job and goes in another direction, does he ever become what he is? No matter how good the Coach is, you can't attract and keep the staff and recruit talent at some programs the way you can at others. Spurrier and Holtz won National Championships at Florida and Notre Dame but couldn't get it done at Carolina and Les Miles is looking like Dooley at Kansas. Mullen left MSU for UF because of that ceiling and Franklin left Vandy for the same reason.

If Ryan Day and Lincoln Riley are promoted to HC from OC at Illinois and Kansas instead, does anyone outside their conference know who they are? That's not to say that "second tier" programs can't be very successful but to reach that highest level much less sustain it the way Saban has can't be duplicated everywhere.
 
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#37

WilcoVolsFan

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#37
Pruitt tried to run an Alabama pre 1999 O with Slippery Rock players (especially at QB).
I'm still not convinced that all of that is on Guarantano. And I mean that literally, I don't know and there's no way to ever know. But I look at the Frosh-to-Soph jump he made and just wonder what he could've been had he the luxury of a consistent offensive philosophy, coaching development, an O-line that wasn't a sieve, and a fan base that didn't shatter his confidence a rock through a window. He went from Jones to Pruitt as well DeBord to Scott, to Helton, to Chaney.

I'm not saying he'd ever have become the next Manning or Shuler, but maybe w/the right development could have been a Tyler Bray light.
 
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#38

VolPack22

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#38
The common denominator in most successful offenses is the quarterback. Pretty high chance you will be a successful team no matter the system as long as you get great play out of your quarterback.
 
#39

CAVPUT

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#39
Malzahn and Kelly built their careers being offensive geniuses only to fade later in their careers.

Looking for posters with some solid football knowledge to reply here.

Does CJH run an offense that can last longer than 5 years before becoming average?
I'll take average for a bit.
 
#40

sjt18

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#40
Rule changes have helped offenses tremendously.The QB is more protected and can draw a penalty if anyone breathes on him.Offensive coaches are finding athletes who can play multiple positions without substituting leaving defensive personnel on the field creating mismatches.
No doubt. Saban politicked for rules that would slow O's down... then to his credit converted his team to take advantage when he couldn't get the rule changes.
 
#41

unfrozencvmanvol

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#41
I'm not sure Heupel has done anything yet to really be put in the same breath with those guys. If some UCF had come on here last year and tried to equate him with those two guys we'd have laughed at him, and rightfully so. Heupel may as yet so great things but he hasn't yet.
 
#42

sjt18

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#42
I'm not sure Heupel has done anything yet to really be put in the same breath with those guys. If some UCF had come on here last year and tried to equate him with those two guys we'd have laughed at him, and rightfully so. Heupel may as yet so great things but he hasn't yet.
There is no problem making a comparison between their systems, philosophies, and schemes... lighten up. No one is coronating the guy.
 
#43

sjt18

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#43
The issue that this system will have is that many of the trap , cutback and power runs take far too long to develop and they allow too much backside pressure. He will need to depend on the RPO game , as I dont think the zone read game as a main weapon will get you very far in the SEC. He is going to have trouble , the top half of the SEC will man cover with success which will allow the backers to attack the running game. His system at Mizzouri feasted on weak teams and floundered badly against against capable defenses .

It will be interesting
Great point. I wonder if he has adapted and figured something out to answer this issue? At the same time, Mizzou did not have a very talented team outside of Lock. Heupel and his staff got a lot more out of a lot less. This is probably the most raw offensive talent he's had since OU.
 
#44
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#44
Malzahn and Kelly built their careers being offensive geniuses only to fade later in their careers.

Looking for posters with some solid football knowledge to reply here.

Does CJH run an offense that can last longer than 5 years before becoming average?
You are asking us to predict the future? Man, nobody knows what kind of rule changes or new trick play might come out that other coaches emulate. Hell, I remember when Bill Walsh's west coast offense was the cutting edge. I remember when the shotgun formation was considered dumb. I thought the niners were crazy when their defensive coordinator went with four down linemen, one backer, and six DBs in the second half of a Super Bowl. But it worked because the Bengals running game was not doing anything, and they were forced to pass pretty much exclusively because they were behind. Go get a magic 8 ball, or go see a psychic. The one thing that makes football so interesting is it evolves, and has more unpredictable changes than any other sport. You don't get that in baseball, basketball, hockey, or any other sport. So I don't care how much football acumen anyone has. To see 5 years into the future on anything schematically related? There is no way of telling, except in some ways great or small, things will change. Somehow.
 
#45

sami

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#45
The one thing I like about CJH is he calls plays according to the strength of his play makers. You can watch some of the UCF games on YouTube and see this. That is what we have been missing is a coach that utilizes the playmakers strengths. Not to be attacked but Lane showed this while here, Dooley could have done the same but ran recruits away with his arrogance, Butch tried to run the RPO with a QB that had the mobility of a dump truck. The exception was Dobbs and he did great but could have been coached better. Pruitt tried to run an Alabama pre 1999 O with Slippery Rock players (especially at QB). I’m not saying CJH is the second coming of Saban, but I think he will play to the O strengths.
Attacked for what? I honestly don't get the hate for Kiffin, especially at this point. Guy got offered his dream job and took it - who the hell wouldn't have gone? I have intense dislike (I reserve hate for politicians and the media) for Mike Hamilton for the dreadful Dooley hire and sending the program into a free fall it hasn't recovered from.

Kiffin took the dreck that Fulmer left, maximized the talent on hand, and went 7-6, beating a ranked SC and just about knocking off #1 Bama. That year was the last time I actually believed that UT was on the right track. Just hoping to get that feeling back with Heupel.
 
#46

metafour

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#46
Nothing really wrong with Malzahn.

His offense still worked. Auburn just cant be Bama so they fired him.
Auburn fan here. This post is wrong.

Malzahn wasn't fired because he "couldn't beat Bama". Thats absurd. He had a Top 5 coaching salary and was producing ~8-5 results. That doesn't cut it, period. Bama is one game on Auburn's schedule - this year we lost to Will Muschamp and South Carolina and he came out of that game talking as if it was an acceptable loss.

Also, his offense has had major problems going on ~3 years now. Zero consistency there and an obvious over-reliance on seasons where all the pieces are clicking (ie: 2010 Cam Newton, 2013 Nick Marshall, 2017 Jarrett Stidham & Kerryon Johnson).

His "offensive genius" was a total fluke.
 
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#47

PlanetVolunteer

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#47
Auburn fan here. This post is wrong.

Malzahn wasn't fired because he "couldn't beat Bama". Thats absurd. He had a Top 5 coaching salary and was producing ~8-5 results. That doesn't cut it, period. Bama is one game on Auburn's schedule - this year we lost to Will Muschamp and South Carolina and he came out of that game talking as if it was an acceptable loss.

Also, his offense has had major problems going on ~3 years now. Zero consistency there and an obvious over-reliance on seasons where all the pieces are clicking (ie: 2010 Cam Newton, 2013 Nick Marshall, 2017 Jarrett Stidham & Kerryon Johnson).
No I said yall fired him because Auburn wants to "be" Bama, but you're not.

Unrealistic expectations. Sure you guys could probably do better, but how much? The SEC West is unbelievably stacked.
 
#48

metafour

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#48
No I said yall fired him because Auburn wants to "be" Bama, but you're not.

Unrealistic expectations. Sure you guys could probably do better, but how much? The SEC West is unbelievably stacked.
Thats not why he was fired. Thats absurd LMAO.

Auburn fans have extremely tempered expectations. Malzahn was fired because he was paid $7+ million to produce an average year-over-year 8 win season with complete inability to even stay in the game against the rivals. Nobody at Auburn is expecting 13-0 seasons. Its ab absolute joke to suggest that.
 
#49

majic73

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#49
Great point. I wonder if he has adapted and figured something out to answer this issue? At the same time, Mizzou did not have a very talented team outside of Lock. Heupel and his staff got a lot more out of a lot less. This is probably the most raw offensive talent he's had since OU.
He seems like a smart guy and has SEC experience. Compared to Butch who had a successful offense but was never able to adapt it to the challenges SEC defenses provide.

I have thought about your points . He will have more talent and I think his issue will be to develop a qb ...the opposite problem he had at mizzou. We have a weaker schedule next season ....so we may be in the money. I hope so . I am not dogging him just recognizing that he will have challenges with his offense . We play in the NFL Jr. League
 
#50

LittleVol

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#50
Adapt or die. Isn't that the case with most anything in life. Successful coaches allow themselves to grow and by in large steal from mother successful programs. I was fortunate enough to coach, high school only now, for over 20 years. I worked with a very good head coach both her in middle TN and in GA. He is a Wing T guy. Ran it here very well and in GA very well. But he has grown it and added to it so that is not the wing t many of us are familiar with from the 1979-80s. Because we were never blessed with a great throwing QB, we mixed in the inside veer and then then midline option. Great stuff. No one would want to see that at the college level today.
Heuple better be ready to shift the speed up on his offense because while he has been successful, the defenses he will face regularly in the SEC are a step above what he has faced thus far in his career. If he can do that and evolve just enough each year to keep growing then he has a chance. If he is like Butch and keeps a guy like AK off the field and not putting a lead blocker front of a back like Hurd, then we will be doing this again in 4 to 5 years. I hope it works and he is here for 20 years. I'm tired of the Vols sucking hind tit in the SEC.
Heupel was the OC for Mizzou for 2 years.

Hung 46 on Florida's top 10 defense in 2017.

The "ELITE " SEC defeneses are giving up an average of 7 more points and 100 total more yards a game on average right now, opposed to 10 yeara ago.

There's no such things as an ELITE defense anywhere anymore.
 

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