Difference between Kiffin and Dooley

#126
#126
Volfan8282 said:
Unless they're in a spot where they're happy (Tressel), then most of the top coaches would move if the money was right. Meyer, Kelly, Saban, and Spurrier either still are or have been that way in their careers. Most coaches are looking out for themselves in terms of money and opportunity... not that there's anything wrong with that necessarily.
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no I meant Kiffin is not a top coach (and not in the league of the guys you just mentioned)
 
#127
#127
utvolpj said:
no I meant Kiffin is not a top coach (and not in the league of the guys you just mentioned)
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Oh yeah, I wasn't trying to infer that, but I can def see how that would've come across that way. He's certainly not in that league as of right now and may never be, especially if he isn't able to survive through the USC sanctions.
 
#128
#128
Volfan8282 said:
I have no connection to Kiffin. I don't care what or how he does out in California. But, it doesn't take a genius to understand that he's in an impossible situation out there. That isn't my opinion. It's the truth of the matter. I don't feel sorry for Kiffin. He's the one that wanted to go out there (albeit before the sanctions hit).

The fact that you don't understand how energy and willpower affect defense in particular speaks volumes for your knowledge of football. Their offense has been fine aside from the last 2 weeks when Barkley went out. You take the will out of a football team, and the first thing to go will be the defense. Voila... that's where they blow this year. They have zilch to play for, and it's glaring on that side of the ball.

And, Al Davis is a complete moron. If he had left Kiffin alone, they would've been fine under him as the HC. Davis is like a lot of owners... they think they know the sport of the team that they own b/c they have a lot of money or just lucked into owning the team. Prime example: Davis wanted Russell, Kiffin didn't.
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So you are admitting here that Kiffin and his pappy can't motivate 5* talent. Thank you.
 
#129
#129
Volfan8282 said:
It is amazing that after all of this time that people still think secondary violations matter.
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Secondary violations can and do matter. If you get enough of them in a small period of time and have blatent disregard for the rules as Kiffin did, they can matter. The NCAA can start snooping around and find a lot bigger things. Marvin Austin at UNC tweeted something stupid and the NCAA starts digging. Come to find out that the improper benefits were the least of their problems.

Kiffin did some good things for our team (Tyler Bray) and some really boneheaded things. IMO he showed his youth and inexperience by committing the secondary violations (sometimes intentionally) and his constant struggle w/ our compliance office. We should hope that we don't end up have a UNC situation on ours hands when this is all said and done.
 
#130
#130
RDU VOL#14 said:
Secondary violations can and do matter. If you get enough of them in a small period of time and have blatent disregard for the rules as Kiffin did, they can matter. The NCAA can start snooping around and find a lot bigger things. Marvin Austin at UNC tweeted something stupid and the NCAA starts digging. Come to find out that the improper benefits were the least of their problems.

Kiffin did some good things for our team (Tyler Bray) and some really boneheaded things. IMO he showed his youth and inexperience by committing the secondary violations (sometimes intentionally) and his constant struggle w/ our compliance office. We should hope that we don't end up have a UNC situation on ours hands when this is all said and done.
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He committed I think 6 (+/- 2) while he was here. Fulmer did that in his sleep, and nobody batted an eye. Granted, Kiffin brought more attention for things like that, but it ultimately didn't matter.
 
#131
#131
Volfan8282 said:
He committed I think 6 (+/- 2) while he was here. Fulmer did that in his sleep, and nobody batted an eye. Granted, Kiffin brought more attention for things like that, but it ultimately didn't matter.
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I think it might be a little too soon to say whether they mattered or not. I really don't like the fact that the NCAA has been on campus this fall. They are on a massive witch hunt since this Reggie Bush deal. I'm with you on the fact that most secondary violations are joke i.e. saying Bryce Brown's name on the radio.

Kiffin was also here for just over a year and Fulmer was here forever. I honestly don't know the most violations PF got in a small time frame. Either way, Kiffin's attitude was a major issue.
 
#132
#132
BoseefusTheVol said:
So you are admitting here that Kiffin and his pappy can't motivate 5* talent. Thank you.
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Vince Lombardi would struggle to motivate a team that has zilch to play for. Get real.

Also, since you're so hung up on 5* defensive players, they only have 3 that currently play for them:

T.J. McDonald (S) - leading tackler
Devon Kennard (LB) - second leading tackler
Chris Galippo (LB) - very good player that was moved from MLB so his stats are down compared to last year
 
#133
#133
Volfan8282 said:
Vince Lombardi would struggle to motivate a team that has zilch to play for. Get real.

Also, since you're so hung up on 5* defensive players, they only have 3 that currently play for them:

T.J. McDonald (S) - leading tackler
Devon Kennard (LB) - second leading tackler
Chris Galippo (LB) - very good player that was moved from MLB so his stats are down compared to last year
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So your logic is that if Kiffin can't do it, no one can? Super :eek:k:
 
#134
#134
You want to know the biggest difference between Dooley and Kiffin???

Kiffin was our coach.

Dooley is our coach.


Who gives a crap what USC and Kiffin are doing, who cares really? It doesn't matter. We are Tennessee. We need to focus on UT. It's time to move on from the past. The past is the past and we can't change it.

Right now we need to look to the future.

We have a Bowl game to win, a 2011 class to recruit and a football team that needs to continue to rebuild and improve so that we can go on to being the terror of the SEC once again.

Whining and fighting over Kiffin vs Dooley isn't going to accomplish anything.
 
#135
#135
RDU VOL#14 said:
Secondary violations can and do matter. If you get enough of them in a small period of time and have blatent disregard for the rules as Kiffin did, they can matter. The NCAA can start snooping around and find a lot bigger things. Marvin Austin at UNC tweeted something stupid and the NCAA starts digging. Come to find out that the improper benefits were the least of their problems.

Kiffin did some good things for our team (Tyler Bray) and some really boneheaded things. IMO he showed his youth and inexperience by committing the secondary violations (sometimes intentionally) and his constant struggle w/ our compliance office. We should hope that we don't end up have a UNC situation on ours hands when this is all said and done.
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Ohio State has had hundreds of secondary violations under Tressel. None of them have mattered.
 
#137
#137
BoseefusTheVol said:
So your logic is that if Kiffin can't do it, no one can? Super :eek:k:
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I'm simply pointing out that it's a legitimate reason for their struggles this year... especially on defense. This is not some earth-shattering news. Defense in any sport is a lot about effort and will.
 
#138
#138
Kiffin showed how much he can "coach" this year by taking a team full of talent to a grand 7-5 record. He will spend the next 3 years at USC slowly regressing the mighty Trojans to the mean, all the while enjoying his dream job.
 
#139
#139
Volfan8282 said:
Vince Lombardi would struggle to motivate a team that has zilch to play for. Get real.
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Pure BS. There is ALWAYS something to play for in football. USC had plenty to play for. If you want a direct comparison of how a great coach CAN motivate a team with "nothing" to play for check the 27-0 NCSU Basketball team in 72-73. Only one other team (76 Indiana) has gone undefeated since them.

Sloan used the same thing Kiffin tried to start this season- play to be the "real" champion. Every game is a playoff game... play for pride.

I guess you could say that Sloan had credibility though... and no trust issues.

Also, since you're so hung up on 5* defensive players, they only have 3 that currently play for them:

T.J. McDonald (S) - leading tackler
Devon Kennard (LB) - second leading tackler
Chris Galippo (LB) - very good player that was moved from MLB so his stats are down compared to last year
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Only 3? Poor, poor Trojans. They started the season with 19 of the 22 in their D 2 deep being 4* or 5* players... and that somehow isn't enough talent in your opinion? You feel compelled to apologize for and excuse them?
 
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#141
#141
sjt18 said:
Pure BS. There is ALWAYS something to play for in football. USC had plenty to play for. If you want a direct comparison of how a great coach CAN motivate a team with "nothing" to play for check the 27-0 NCSU Basketball team in 72-73. Only one other team (76 Indiana) has gone undefeated since them.

Sloan used the same thing Kiffin tried to start this season- play to be the "real" champion. Every game is a playoff game... play for pride.

I guess you could say that Sloan had credibility though... and no trust issues.



Only 3? Poor, poor Trojans. They started the season with 19 of the 22 in their D 2 deep being 4* or 5* players... and that somehow isn't enough talent in your opinion? You feel compelled to apologize for and excuse them?
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I don't care if you want to agree with it or not, but there isn't a football analyst in the country who would deny that USC would have trouble finding motivation this season and that they would probably fall somewhat flat. It's not like they were great last year either (9-4). They easily could've gone 8-5 this year w/ a UCLA win and a would be bowl win. So, one game difference... big whoop. I'm mostly referring to their troubles on defense which, again, is mostly just heart and desire.

Also, you're comparing basketball and football. In basketball, you need one or two great players (Thompson), and you can still win. It's not even close to a direct comparison. It's a lot easier to get 12 guys to buy into something, especially when they notice that they have one of the best college basketball players in history on their team.

My only point with the 5* defensive players was stating that it's not like the entire team is full of them which is what the other poster was suggesting. And, in fact, their 5* players are the best on the team on defense along with Roby probably. Their offense has been fine.
 
#144
#144
Volfan8282 said:
I don't care if you want to agree with it or not, but there isn't a football analyst in the country who would deny that USC would have trouble finding motivation this season and that they would probably fall somewhat flat. It's not like they were great last year either (9-4). They easily could've gone 8-5 this year w/ a UCLA win and a would be bowl win. So, one game difference... big whoop. I'm mostly referring to their troubles on defense which, again, is mostly just heart and desire.
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You are doing nothing but excusing supposedly "great" coaches for not doing their jobs. I guarantee that EVERY analyst could give a strong list of things USC was playing for. USC had one of the most if not the most talented teams in the country and still managed to lose to 5-6 OSU, 7-5 (and bad) ND, and 5-6 UW along with Stanford and Oregon.

Oregon scored MORE AT USC than they did against a UT team that was nowhere close to being as talented or ready for prime time.

Also, you're comparing basketball and football. In basketball, you need one or two great players (Thompson), and you can still win. It's not even close to a direct comparison. It's a lot easier to get 12 guys to buy into something, especially when they notice that they have one of the best college basketball players in history on their team.
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If the comparison is lacking at all then it would be in Kiffin's favor. His team is absolutely loaded and by comparison to the rest of the Pac 10 they are REALLY loaded. Sloan's teams played other great ACC teams. A year later they ended UCLA's championship string. They also had to get up 27 times- each time finding a reason to gut through.

I find it absolutely incredible that you guys defend Kiffin like he has actually proven something as a HC. He's proven no more than Dooley and maybe even less considering he's had better circumstances.
 
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#145
#145
sjt18 said:
You are doing nothing but excusing supposedly "great" coaches for not doing their jobs. I guarantee that EVERY analyst could give a strong list of things USC was playing for. USC had one of the most if not the most talented teams in the country and still managed to lose to 5-6 OSU, 7-5 (and bad) ND, and 5-6 UW along with Stanford and Oregon.

Oregon scored MORE AT USC than they did against a UT team that was nowhere close to being as talented or ready for prime time.

If the comparison is lacking at all then it would be in Kiffin's favor. His team is absolutely loaded and by comparison to the rest of the Pac 10 they are REALLY loaded. Sloan's teams played other great ACC teams. A year later they ended UCLA's championship string. They also had to get up 27 times- each time finding a reason to gut through.

I find it absolutely incredible that you guys defend Kiffin like he has actually proven something as a HC. He's proven no more than Dooley and maybe even less considering he's had better circumstances.
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We just don't agree on the defensive side of the ball then. Their offense has not been the problem. I maintain that, regardless of "talent", a player must have drive and will to be on the defensive side of the ball. It's obviously the reactionary side of the ball, and, consequently, requires more effort. I don't know what "motivation lists" you're really referring to. Other than trying to play well to get noticed for the NFL, those players had to have a dip in how much they really care. It's impossible for them not to have that. And, again, a feasible 8-5 season (coming off of 9-4) would be about right in that area. It's not like they were 11-1 or something last year.

The comparison doesn't match up b/c again the sports are completely different. Look at the 2003 Syracuse team. Without Melo, that team probably squeaks into the tournament. You can win and win big with just one or maybe two big time players and the other 10 guys really believing in it. I know what you're saying with USC having a lot of talent, and I'm not arguing that point. But, it's more than just talent in football. The team has to believe and care about winning as a whole (as corny as that sounds). It's a lot more difficult to do that with 85 players (especially when a lot of them are probably prima donnas) than it is 12 players.

I'm not defending Kiffin at all. Again, most analysts would agree with everything I've said. It's not rocket science. The weird thing is that if Kiffin doesn't survive these next 3-4 years at USC, then I still don't think we'll know for sure what kind of coach he really is. If he does make it through and never gets them to an elite level when they have a chance to be in bowls, then I'll be the first to say that he's not the coach I thought he was when he was at UT. But, you can't base much on what's going on for the next few years at USC.
 
#146
#146
SGMVols said:
There's no doubt he did. Take away Bray, James, Fulton, Jackson, Teague, Gordon, et al, and we're really hurting.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Can't say Kiffin didn't recruit well those players listed are good players. But CDD did get James Stone, DreRick Rodgers, Hunter, Rajon Neal on short notice so he isn't a slouch either. Hopefully, he will close hard with A. Richardson, C. Clear and maybe even G. Wright. Still some long shots like Chickillo, Jay Rome, Bellamy would really be nice. While Kiffin did recruit well he gambled on some high risk kids like Nuke that hurt the program some to. I'm hoping with luck we can crack the top 10 in recruiting this season. Making a bowl game is very helpful and gives a little buzz about the program.
 
#147
#147
dw0731 said:
Can't say Kiffin didn't recruit well those players listed are good players. But CDD did get James Stone, DreRick Rodgers, Hunter, Rajon Neal on short notice so he isn't a slouch either.
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But all of those guys were originally Kiffin targets and every one of them had either had a visit with Kiffin or Kiffin set up the visit that occurred with Dooley. The real measure of Dooley's recruiting will be somewhat this class (which appears to be coming together very well) but I'd say the class of 2012 will be better.
 
#148
#148
SGMVols said:
Ohio State has had hundreds of secondary violations under Tressel. None of them have mattered.
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I agree that most secondary violations are a joke. You can go back and see that I said that. I just think that your boy was somewhat reckless. It seemed like he was almost trying to dare or toy w/ the NCAA. He was very cavalier with our program and athletic department. Nobody cares if you do something stupid here or there, but when you do it on purpose or say it's no big deal it becomes a big deal. It was your boy's attitude that had him put on notice.
 
#149
#149
Volfan8282 said:
I have no connection to Kiffin. I don't care what or how he does out in California. But, it doesn't take a genius to understand that he's in an impossible situation out there. That isn't my opinion. It's the truth of the matter. I don't feel sorry for Kiffin. He's the one that wanted to go out there (albeit before the sanctions hit).

The fact that you don't understand how energy and willpower affect defense in particular speaks volumes for your knowledge of football. Their offense has been fine aside from the last 2 weeks when Barkley went out. You take the will out of a football team, and the first thing to go will be the defense. Voila... that's where they blow this year. They have zilch to play for, and it's glaring on that side of the ball.

And, Al Davis is a complete moron. If he had left Kiffin alone, they would've been fine under him as the HC. Davis is like a lot of owners... they think they know the sport of the team that they own b/c they have a lot of money or just lucked into owning the team. Prime example: Davis wanted Russell, Kiffin didn't.
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Just like Kiffin didn't want Cam Newton?
 
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