Did i hear this right?

#26
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#26
No I just think it's ridiculous to suggest that elite pre-2000s pitchers didn't "give their all every pitch.". I think using examples from over a century ago is even moreso
I think you are conflating "less than maximum effort" with "didn't care."

Marathon runners don't run at a dead sprint for all 26.2 miles. Does that mean they don't care?
 
#27

utvolpj

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#27
I think you are conflating "less than maximum effort" with "didn't care."

Marathon runners don't run at a dead sprint for all 26.2 miles. Does that mean they don't care?
another bad example
Runners are giving maximum effort to the task at hand within a defined goal.

A pitcher does not go out thinking they will pitch 11 innings so they better keep some in the tank
 
#28

volfanbill

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#28
What is that supposed to mean? There is a whole lot more to pitching than trying to blow it by the batter every pitch, a good pitcher tries to keep the batters confused by varying velocity, placement and with movement/breaking balls. I don't believe for 1 second that pitchers "back in the day" took pitches off. They gave it their all every pitch.
Horsesh**. They wouldn’t last three innings. There’s a reason fastball specialists can crank it up to 101, but typically pitch in the upper nineties. They’re making sure they can go 6-7 innings. Same reason pitchers like Eck and Smoktz extended their careers by becoming closers
 
#32

hog88

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#32
Horsesh**. They wouldn’t last three innings. There’s a reason fastball specialists can crank it up to 101, but typically pitch in the upper nineties. They’re making sure they can go 6-7 innings. Same reason pitchers like Eck and Smoktz extended their careers by becoming closers
Wow, you have to be kidding me? Really, pitchers don't throw every pitch as hard as they can? You mean they vary velocity between pitches? Who would have thunk it?
 
#35

volfanbill

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#35
I thought you were smart enough to detect the sarcasm, guess I was wrong.

Just because a pitcher isn't throwing his hardest every pitch doesn't mean he's not giving his "max effort" on every one.
Please explain that one. They literally repeatedly go over explaining how they learn and perfect giving 90% so that they can last deeper into ballgames. And why it’s so important to have breaking stuff to keep the batter off balance.
 
#36

hog88

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#36
Please explain that one. They literally repeatedly go over explaining how they learn and perfect giving 90% so that they can last deeper into ballgames. And why it’s so important to have breaking stuff to keep the batter off balance.
"max effort" doesn't mean they are throwing the ball as hard as they can every pitch. "max effort" is a stupid term to use because they are giving their max effort every pitch. That max effort may be in placement, velocity or movement.
 
#37

GroverCleveland

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#37
... It's how a guy like Walter Johnson made 40 starts a year and threw ~30 complete games. He also wasn't up there necessarily trying to strike out every hitter he faced.

Way back in the day, baseball pitchers were more akin to slowpitch softball pitchers than today's pitchers. It was a defensive game, so throw strikes, make them put it in play, it's really hard to hit HRs or extra base hits, so rely on your defense.
Well thank goodness Big Train was not trying to strike out every hitter he faced, being as he held the Major League record for strikeouts (3508) until 1983. If he'd meant to strike out every one, there is no telling how many he'd had.
 
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#38
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#38
"max effort" doesn't mean they are throwing the ball as hard as they can every pitch. "max effort" is a stupid term to use because they are giving their max effort every pitch. That max effort may be in placement, velocity or movement.
You're doing the same thing PJ did, which is conflating "less than max effort" with "does not care" or "lazy."

I'm using the term "less than max effort" to mean the physical exertion required to throw the pitch. The term is widely used around baseball to mean that. Not that they don't care about the outcome. Most pitchers today are putting all the physical energy that they have into each and every pitch, and they did not used to do that. Of course they were still trying to hit their spot, but they were not throwing every pitch as hard as they could.

A marathon runner is not using "max effort" for every single mile of the marathon; it doesn't mean he does not care.
 
#39
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#39
Well thank goodness Big Train was not trying to strike out every hitter he faced, being as he held the Major League record for strikeouts (3508) until 1983. If he'd meant to strike out every one, there is no telling how many he'd had.
His number of Ks was a function of how many innings he threw. His K rate for his career was 5.3 Ks per 9 and the highest single-season rate he had was 7.6 per 9, which was great for his era but is considered really low today.
 
#40

stolitonic

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#40
There are always exceptions/guys with rubber arms. Nolan Ryan was throwing in the upper 90s in his 40s.
Weird thing is that Nolan threw his arm out on the next to last scheduled start of his career.

Crazy when you think about it. Go 30 years just taking advil and then your arm pops when it's basically over.
 
#42

volfanbill

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#42
"max effort" doesn't mean they are throwing the ball as hard as they can every pitch. "max effort" is a stupid term to use because they are giving their max effort every pitch. That max effort may be in placement, velocity or movement.
lol no. That’s not what the term means. So we’re in agreement, you just don’t understand words. Max effort literally means giving it everything you have. Everything.
 
#43

VolnJC

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#43
It could be worse. Pitchers used to throw that many in a single game back in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The Braves played a game way back in the day that went 26 innings and both pitchers pitched the entire game. Both pitchers threw over 300 pitches.
Yeah but the life expectations back then were like 43 so no need in saving an arm or learning the knuckleball
 
#44

volfanbill

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#44
If say they throw seven innings, 89 pitches and start to lose it, over the duration of seven innings, they gave it their all. They didn’t necessarily give maximum effort every pitch. That’s just impossible. The marathon runner is a prime example. He/she will run in a pack at a pretty set pace, save up and the last five miles or so take off from the pack by running considerably faster because they were saving for the end.
 
#45

ButchPlz

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#45
I'm using different examples from different eras. Like I said, this current "max effort with every single pitch" dogma has only been around for 15-20 years. In the dead ball era, the differences from the modern game were the most extreme, but guys didn't go max effort 100% of the time in the 70s and 80s either.

The way the game is approached offensively, and thus the expectations of a pitcher, are different. As recently as the 90s, there weren't dudes throwing 95 MPH wipeout sliders with 40% of their pitches. That has taken hold really only in the last decade or so. That puts tremendous stress on your arm and you aren't throwing complete games if you do that, especially if you aren't pitching to contact either (which hardly anybody does anymore).

Are you one of these "guys don't throw complete games anymore because they are pussies" guys?
This is even bigger than anything. All the breaking stuff pitchers are expected to litter their repertoire with, and pitch more and more, put more of a strain on the arm than throwing hard- or at least that's what I believe. There was a reason back when I played high school ball in the late-2000s the coaches didn't expect guys to go out throwing curves and sliders every pitch.
 
#46

hog88

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#46
This is even bigger than anything. All the breaking stuff pitchers are expected to litter their repertoire with, and pitch more and more, put more of a strain on the arm than throwing hard- or at least that's what I believe. There was a reason back when I played high school ball in the late-2000s the coaches didn't expect guys to go out throwing curves and sliders every pitch.
Kids are expected to start throwing breaking balls way to young these days then you throw in the fact way to many of them start specializing in one sport before they become teenagers. Kids are playing way too many baseball games and it shouldn't surprise anyone that their arms are almost wasted by the time they turn 20.
 
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#48

Vol423

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#48
I'm using different examples from different eras. Like I said, this current "max effort with every single pitch" dogma has only been around for 15-20 years. In the dead ball era, the differences from the modern game were the most extreme, but guys didn't go max effort 100% of the time in the 70s and 80s either.

The way the game is approached offensively, and thus the expectations of a pitcher, are different. As recently as the 90s, there weren't dudes throwing 95 MPH wipeout sliders with 40% of their pitches. That has taken hold really only in the last decade or so. That puts tremendous stress on your arm and you aren't throwing complete games if you do that, especially if you aren't pitching to contact either (which hardly anybody does anymore).

Are you one of these "guys don't throw complete games anymore because they are pussies" guys?
If you believe that pitchers didn't give maximum effort on every pitch until the last 15-20 years, that just tells me that you aren't old enough to have watched baseball prior to the year 2000. That is an absolutely ludicrous statement.
 
#49

Vol423

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#49
You're doing the same thing PJ did, which is conflating "less than max effort" with "does not care" or "lazy."

I'm using the term "less than max effort" to mean the physical exertion required to throw the pitch. The term is widely used around baseball to mean that. Not that they don't care about the outcome. Most pitchers today are putting all the physical energy that they have into each and every pitch, and they did not used to do that. Of course they were still trying to hit their spot, but they were not throwing every pitch as hard as they could.
That is complete ********. Pitchers today are not trying to throw every pitch as hard as they can. If they were, there would be no curve balls, sliders, sinkers, change ups, etc. Pitching is no different today than it was in the eighties or nineties other than the fact that pitchers today are coddled just like the rest of their generation in other professions are coddled.
 
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#50
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#50
That is complete ********. Pitchers today are not trying to throw every pitch as hard as they can. If they were, there would be no curve balls, sliders, sinkers, change ups, etc. Pitching is no different today than it was in the eighties or nineties other than the fact that pitchers today are coddled just like the rest of their generation in other professions are coddled.
Do you know anything about baseball? Pitchers do not change their arm speed on breaking or off speed pitches. They don't slow their arms down or anything about their physical exertion on those pitches.
 

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