Did i hear this right?

#2

VolPack22

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#2
It could be worse. Pitchers used to throw that many in a single game back in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The Braves played a game way back in the day that went 26 innings and both pitchers pitched the entire game. Both pitchers threw over 300 pitches.
 
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#4
It could be worse. Pitchers used to throw that many in a single game back in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The Braves played a game way back in the day that went 26 innings and both pitchers pitched the entire game. Both pitchers threw over 300 pitches.
Those guys were throwing nowhere near max effort in those days. It was a totally different game and what was expected from pitchers was totally different. The dead ball era.

Baseball pitchers in the dead ball era were more similar to slowpitch softball pitchers than today's modern MLB pitchers. Pitchers threw nowhere near max effort, threw spitballs, the ball was much different (it was called the dead ball era for a reason) and not replaced during games. Very few extra base hits were hit in those days. Pitchers were expected to come in there and throw strikes, let hitters put the ball in play, and rely on the defense to make outs.
 
#5

peaygolf

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#5
It could be worse. Pitchers used to throw that many in a single game back in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The Braves played a game way back in the day that went 26 innings and both pitchers pitched the entire game. Both pitchers threw over 300 pitches.


Sorry....I kid.
 
#7

hog88

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#7
Those guys were throwing nowhere near max effort in those days. It was a totally different game and what was expected from pitchers was totally different. The dead ball era.

Baseball pitchers in the dead ball era were more similar to slowpitch softball pitchers than today's modern MLB pitchers. Pitchers threw nowhere near max effort, threw spitballs, the ball was much different (it was called the dead ball era for a reason) and not replaced during games. Very few extra base hits were hit in those days. Pitchers were expected to come in there and throw strikes, let hitters put the ball in play, and rely on the defense to make outs.
Guys were pitching on 3 days rest as late as the 80s. But you're right the expectations for pitchers now is completely different.
 
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#8

VolPack22

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#8
Those guys were throwing nowhere near max effort in those days. It was a totally different game and what was expected from pitchers was totally different. The dead ball era.

Baseball pitchers in the dead ball era were more similar to slowpitch softball pitchers than today's modern MLB pitchers. Pitchers threw nowhere near max effort, threw spitballs, the ball was much different (it was called the dead ball era for a reason) and not replaced during games. Very few extra base hits were hit in those days. Pitchers were expected to come in there and throw strikes, let hitters put the ball in play, and rely on the defense to make outs.
My original post was written being mostly sarcastic. It used to be there were several guys that could pitch complete games and do it pitching 100-120 pitches. Now if a pitcher gets to 80-90 pitches they are about to get yanked, unless they have shutout going. Roy Halliday is the last guy that could consistently go the distance. But honestly, I would have to think they were at least topping out somewhere in the low 80s, even back in the earlier 1900s. 300 pitches is a lot, even if they were only throwing 70-80 mph. The evolution of baseball has been truly amazing.
 
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#9

tnburban

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#9
Back in the days of let's say, Nolan Ryan, Jack Morris, Randy Johnson types who were all inning eaters it was different. Back then you didn't have every player in the lineup hitting dingers all the time. You knew when you got down to 7-8-9 in the order it was going to be not necessarily a cakewalk, but not 100% effort needed. 120+ pitch games from guys like that were expected. If they got yanked before the 7th it was a bad night for them.

Now 1-9 all require 100% effort. At all levels. Same thing has happened in softball. 7-8-9 in a softball lineup were .200 hitters. Now you've got girls who are hitting over .300 with power batting in those spots.
 
#10

hog88

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#10
Back in the days of let's say, Nolan Ryan, Jack Morris, Randy Johnson types who were all inning eaters it was different. Back then you didn't have every player in the lineup hitting dingers all the time. You knew when you got down to 7-8-9 in the order it was going to be not necessarily a cakewalk, but not 100% effort needed. 120+ pitch games from guys like that were expected. If they got yanked before the 7th it was a bad night for them.

Now 1-9 all require 100% effort. At all levels. Same thing has happened in softball. 7-8-9 in a softball lineup were .200 hitters. Now you've got girls who are hitting over .300 with power batting in those spots.
Those guys and Gregg Maddux all averaged 7 innings each start because they were good technical pitchers, today most starting pitchers average 5 innings a start.
 
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#11
My original post was written being mostly sarcastic. It used to be there were several guys that could pitch complete games and do it pitching 100-120 pitches. Now if a pitcher gets to 80-90 pitches they are about to get yanked, unless they have shutout going. Roy Halliday is the last guy that could consistently go the distance. But honestly, I would have to think they were at least topping out somewhere in the low 80s, even back in the earlier 1900s. 300 pitches is a lot, even if they were only throwing 70-80 mph. The evolution of baseball has been truly amazing.
Yes, 300 pitches is still a lot, but there had to be far less stress on the arm. Guys weren't throwing low 90s wipeout sliders and 99 MPH sinkers in 1900.
Guys were pitching on 3 days rest as late as the 80s. But you're right the expectations for pitchers now is completely different.
Even as recently as the 80s, the expectations were different. As @tnburban said 7-8-9 in a batting order used to be light hitting, defense-only players. I don't really think that max effort 100% of the time pitching really took hold among starting pitchers until some point in the 2000s (it had been around with relievers before that because they only threw 1-2 innings). And within the last 10 years, it has become really infrequent, almost taboo, for pitchers to pitch to contact.

These guys are throwing with max effort on every single pitch trying to generate swings and misses. They don't want anybody putting the ball in play. Not saying that is bad necessarily, but it is a huge philosophical change in the game. It's a total change from someone like Greg Maddux, who threw pitches that he wanted guys to swing at.
 
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#15
He wasn't throwing that in college
There are always exceptions/guys with rubber arms. Nolan Ryan was throwing in the upper 90s in his 40s.

There is no way in hell R.A. was throwing max effort for 11 straight innings. The reason most of these dudes last 5-6 innings today is because they throw every pitch with max effort and are intentionally avoiding pitching to contact.
 
#16

hog88

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#16
There are always exceptions/guys with rubber arms. Nolan Ryan was throwing in the upper 90s in his 40s.

There is no way in hell R.A. was throwing max effort for 11 straight innings. The reason most of these dudes last 5-6 innings today is because they throw every pitch with max effort and are intentionally avoiding pitching to contact.
What are you considering "max effort"? I find it hard to believe that D1 or professionals are not giving it their max effort on every pitch.
 
#18

hog88

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#18
I mean...exactly what it sounds like...guys throwing as hard as they can on each pitch.
What is that supposed to mean? There is a whole lot more to pitching than trying to blow it by the batter every pitch, a good pitcher tries to keep the batters confused by varying velocity, placement and with movement/breaking balls. I don't believe for 1 second that pitchers "back in the day" took pitches off. They gave it their all every pitch.
 
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#19
What is that supposed to mean? There is a whole lot more to pitching than trying to blow it by the batter every pitch, a good pitcher tries to keep the batters confused by varying velocity, placement and with movement/breaking balls. I don't believe for 1 second that pitchers "back in the day" took pitches off. They gave it their all every pitch.
There's a difference between "taking pitches off" and "not giving max effort with every single pitch." I don't think there has ever been a time where pitchers sometimes didn't give a s**t and just lobbed pitches up there, but there absolutely was a time where guys didn't go 100% with every single pitch because they didn't really have to, especially in the dead ball era. The game was totally different offensively. Today you can't throw spitballs, the baseball gets replaced all the time during the game, the outfield walls aren't 550 feet away, and there are good hitters 1-8 in lineups (1-9 in the AL). It's how a guy like Walter Johnson made 40 starts a year and threw ~30 complete games. He also wasn't up there necessarily trying to strike out every hitter he faced.

Way back in the day, baseball pitchers were more akin to slowpitch softball pitchers than today's pitchers. It was a defensive game, so throw strikes, make them put it in play, it's really hard to hit HRs or extra base hits, so rely on your defense.
 
#20

utvolpj

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#20
There's a difference between "taking pitches off" and "not giving max effort with every single pitch." I don't think there has ever been a time where pitchers sometimes didn't give a s**t and just lobbed pitches up there, but there absolutely was a time where guys didn't go 100% with every single pitch because they didn't really have to, especially in the dead ball era. The game was totally different offensively. Today you can't throw spitballs, the baseball gets replaced all the time during the game, the outfield walls aren't 550 feet away, and there are good hitters 1-8 in lineups (1-9 in the AL). It's how a guy like Walter Johnson made 40 starts a year and threw ~30 complete games. He also wasn't up there necessarily trying to strike out every hitter he faced.

Way back in the day, baseball pitchers were more akin to slowpitch softball pitchers than today's pitchers. It was a defensive game, so throw strikes, make them put it in play, it's really hard to hit HRs or extra base hits, so rely on your defense.
Way back in the day? Dickey played at UT in the mid 90s when they were one of the best around
 
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#21
Way back in the day? Dickey played at UT in the mid 90s
This current dogma of max effort with each pitch, 100% of the time only really took hold in the 2000s.

And like I said, there are always exceptions. Remember, Dickey also always threw a forkball (which he ended up perfecting into that "power knuckleball") that put way less stress on his arm than other pitches. That definitely helped preserve his arm.
 
#22

utvolpj

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#22
This current dogma of max effort with each pitch, 100% of the time only really took hold in the 2000s.

And like I said, there are always exceptions. Remember, Dickey also always threw a forkball (which he ended up perfecting into that "power knuckleball") that put way less stress on his arm than other pitches. That definitely helped preserve his arm.
Well that would explain why you used an example of a pre- WW1 player šŸ™„

So it's your assertion that before the 2000s pitchers didn't give max effort?

It seems your argument is being constructed via Google in real time. Maybe you should take a few minutes and get it all together
 
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#23
Well that would explain why you used an example of a pre- WW1 player šŸ™„

It seems your argument is being constructed via Google as you post. Maybe you should take a few minutes and get it all together
I'm using different examples from different eras. Like I said, this current "max effort with every single pitch" dogma has only been around for 15-20 years. In the dead ball era, the differences from the modern game were the most extreme, but guys didn't go max effort 100% of the time in the 70s and 80s either.

The way the game is approached offensively, and thus the expectations of a pitcher, are different. As recently as the 90s, there weren't dudes throwing 95 MPH wipeout sliders with 40% of their pitches. That has taken hold really only in the last decade or so. That puts tremendous stress on your arm and you aren't throwing complete games if you do that, especially if you aren't pitching to contact either (which hardly anybody does anymore).

Are you one of these "guys don't throw complete games anymore because they are pussies" guys?
 
#24

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#24
I think every pitcher is different - each one has a different delivery, different body type, etc. that impacts how a high number of pitches affects them.

I knew there would be some questions raised about Kopps' usage just like there was about Nikhazy, the West Virginia starter who threw 150 pitches a few weeks ago, and others. Heck Nebraska pitched their ace 130 pitches over 4 days. In the case of Kopps I think the fact that he's 24 years old and really built well physically makes him able to handle more pitches than normal college pitchers. He's also already had TJ surgery and doesn't throw a lot of fastballs at all where he has to really crank it in there. Arkansas' Saturday starter, Peyton Pallette, injured his arm a couple of weeks ago and he rarely went over 60-70 pitches per start all season, so it wasn't due to overuse it just randomly happened on one of his pitches.

I'm wondering if we don't see the NCAA get away from the current regional format that forces you to play so many games in 4 days and just do a normal 3-game series to avoid this.
 
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#25

utvolpj

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#25
I'm using different examples from different eras. Like I said, this current "max effort with every single pitch" dogma has only been around for 15-20 years. In the dead ball era, the differences from the modern game were the most extreme, but guys didn't go max effort 100% of the time in the 70s and 80s either.

The way the game is approached offensively, and thus the expectations of a pitcher, are different. As recently as the 90s, there weren't dudes throwing 95 MPH wipeout sliders with 40% of their pitches. That has taken hold really only in the last decade or so. That puts tremendous stress on your arm and you aren't throwing complete games if you do that, especially if you aren't pitching to contact either (which hardly anybody does anymore).

Are you one of these "guys don't throw complete games anymore because they are pussies" guys?
No I just think it's ridiculous to suggest that elite pre-2000s pitchers didn't "give their all every pitch.". I think using examples from over a century ago is even moreso
 

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