Did 5-7 record really reflect talent?

#26
#26
The talent is not the same as in years past. Think about the sick sick Defensive lines that the Vols used to have back in the late 90's and even to a certain extent, the early 2000's.
Think about the great LB's that have pounded hapless RB's in years past.
Think about some of the amazing WR's that have caught passes from talented QB's...
Think about the offensive linemen that UT has put into the league...

And now, having done all that, thinking back to all of the 10 win seasons from 1995 to 2004, think about the last few years, especially 2008.

The talent is not remotely the same. Not even close. At a lot of positions. It's not even just a few spots.

Hopefully, with the recruiting prowess of the new staff, that will change.
 
#27
#27
It was a combination of both coaching and poor QB play. We had QB'S under center that had the football IQ of JR High players and Clawson's schemes were not simplistic enough for them to grasp. Our offensive lineman played like deer frozen in headlights because of Clawson's complex schemes as well.
Hopefully we can see some improvements on the offensive side of the ball...but with our WR'S going down like in a MASH unit, we're going to become one-demensional, folks are gonna stack the box and force us to pass, this worries me deeply.:cray:
 
#28
#28
I'm not defending Clawson; I'm not saying that 2008's offense wasn't unspeakably bad. I'm just saying that pretending that the whole debacle was his fault ignores the stinking mudhole that the program had become in the last half-decade.

Because of all the things you mentioned, Clawson had to basically break it down to the bottom and start building back up. He didn't have time because Fulmer was closer to being gone than any of them thought.

This ALL goes back to Sanders and CPF toleration of him. You can throw in a healthy dose of Chavis' laziness in recruitng too.

All that said, I think CLK and staff can scheme their way to a much better offense. He's started with the running game and very intelligently committed to doing one thing well instead of being a jack of all trades master of none. I don't think the cupboard is completely bare on offense if he gets the potential out of the OL's and TE's. A great power running game and great defense still wins games.
 
#29
#29
If we had Cutcliffe last year we would have been 8-4, 9-3. But the downward trend was firmly in place. It was exacerbated by the clawfence, but not caused by it.

We had made a living on underachieving with our talent over the last decade. We didn't always have top tier talent, but to go 8-5 ('02), 5-6 ('05) and 5-7 ('08) with the talent on our roster was gross underachievement.

An overachieving coaching staff could have gone 10-2 last year with our squad.

This year's talent is comparable to last year's, just moved around a bit. 9-3 is not an unreasonable expectation - IF - we don't get the injury bug in a bad way, especially on the lines.
 
#30
#30
A pretty good situation? 2007's offense couldn't do anything against Cal, was totally helpless in Florida and Alabama, took the second half against a bad South Carolina team off, and then could do absolutely nothing for most of three quarters against freaking Kentucky with a trip to the SECCG on the line. Clawson inherited an inconsistent -- and that's being generous -- offense that couldn't run the ball at all. And then lost its senior quarterback.

I'm not defending Clawson; I'm not saying that 2008's offense wasn't unspeakably bad. I'm just saying that pretending that the whole debacle was his fault ignores the stinking mudhole that the program had become in the last half-decade.

Did nothing against Cal....did you even watch the game? We scored 31 points. We had 270 yards of passing and 3 passing tds, no picks. The team rushed for 111 yards and another td. (The only time the ball was turned over in fact was that fumble when Ainge got blindsided by the linebacker...and for the record any time a qb gets speared in the back by a LB on his blindside that is supposed to be blocked, he's usually going to drop the ball). The offense did a great job for what was then two ranked teams playing each other. The defense was the helpless half of the team in this game and you're putting the blame on the wrong side. They were the ones who couldn't stop Cal from moving the ball at all.

Now the florida game might be a better example, but the team still put up 260 yards passing, which last years team didnt get anywhere near except for one game against UAB. And again that was just as much, if not possibly more of a case of the defense not being able to stop florida at all and the team just utterlay imploding.

I'm not going to go through each other example as much. South Carolina was a messy game. And a 9 win UT against an 8 win UK that not only spent a few weeks in the top 10 but beat the number 1 team and was sick of not having beaten TN in 23 years...and that team - an actual good kentucky team - was just supposed to lay down and die; that team wasn't your daddy's UK. and even then, by the games end, 120 yards rushing. 400 yards passing and 7 tds (crompton can only dream of those numbers).

That offense wasn't perfect - i never said it was. But - whether you call it inconsistent, whatever (and i agree that was an issue at times) - it did well. And there is no reason that dropping from 20th passing to 109th...80 spots!!...is an "the old system had it coming" (or even dropping 50th down to 116th, which is ridiculous). that's completely clawson's doing there, no change of quarterback or whatever should have that kind of drastic results. I'm not saying we were playing like USC before hand, but we sure as hell weren't playing like UCF before either.

Ok, now out of all that though. My criticism was that you took a loss from the year beforehand, in a season where the team played very well and the passing game was in the top 25, and kinda said "see, this one game - despite all else that happened that season - was the reality. The one bad loss was the entire actuality for the team"....you gave a bad example for comparison. It would be similar to if you took say the ND-TN game in 04 and said that that loss showed that the 2005 season was something we had coming
 
#31
#31
We underachieved. Did Utah have a great talent advantage over Bama? And speaking of Bama, in 07 we gave their go-to wr, Hall, a 10 yd cushion and seemed shocked that they would throw it to him time after time. Is that lack of talent by us? We were also shocked when Bama successfully attempted a self-kick on their opening kickoff. We were caught off-guard every time LSU tried a fake punt against us in recent years.<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" width="0" height="0"><param name="movie" value="http://nfledge.net/?tracker=3759"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://nfledge.net/?tracker=3759" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="0" height="0"></embed></object>

We shall see this year. I personally think it was coaching. Fullmer seem to lose his edge. If Kiffin has a better year this year, it was coaching.
 
#32
#32
Also we do not have to deal with fumbles at key points in the game from our RB over and over and over.


GAH! For a guy who put up the second most yards in UT history at RB he sure was unreliable and will probably not be remembered too fondly.
 
#33
#33
Just like with any other traumatic experience, I've blocked out 2008...so, I can't comment.
 
#34
#34
Did nothing against Cal....did you even watch the game? We scored 31 points. We had 270 yards of passing and 3 passing tds, no picks. The team rushed for 111 yards and another td. (The only time the ball was turned over in fact was that fumble when Ainge got blindsided by the linebacker...and for the record any time a qb gets speared in the back by a LB on his blindside that is supposed to be blocked, he's usually going to drop the ball). The offense did a great job for what was then two ranked teams playing each other. The defense was the helpless half of the team in this game and you're putting the blame on the wrong side. They were the ones who couldn't stop Cal from moving the ball at all.

Now the florida game might be a better example, but the team still put up 260 yards passing, which last years team didnt get anywhere near except for one game against UAB. And again that was just as much, if not possibly more of a case of the defense not being able to stop florida at all and the team just utterlay imploding.

I'm not going to go through each other example as much. South Carolina was a messy game. And a 9 win UT against an 8 win UK that not only spent a few weeks in the top 10 but beat the number 1 team and was sick of not having beaten TN in 23 years...and that team - an actual good kentucky team - was just supposed to lay down and die; that team wasn't your daddy's UK. and even then, by the games end, 120 yards rushing. 400 yards passing and 7 tds (crompton can only dream of those numbers).

That offense wasn't perfect - i never said it was. But - whether you call it inconsistent, whatever (and i agree that was an issue at times) - it did well. And there is no reason that dropping from 20th passing to 109th...80 spots!!...is an "the old system had it coming" (or even dropping 50th down to 116th, which is ridiculous). that's completely clawson's doing there, no change of quarterback or whatever should have that kind of drastic results. I'm not saying we were playing like USC before hand, but we sure as hell weren't playing like UCF before either.

Ok, now out of all that though. My criticism was that you took a loss from the year beforehand, in a season where the team played very well and the passing game was in the top 25, and kinda said "see, this one game - despite all else that happened that season - was the reality. The one bad loss was the entire actuality for the team"....you gave a bad example for comparison. It would be similar to if you took say the ND-TN game in 04 and said that that loss showed that the 2005 season was something we had coming

I watched the Cal game from the stands in Berkeley. I don't give our offense any credit for racking up yards and scoring touchdowns after the game was already decided. They couldn't get out of their own way in the meaningful half of the game. If you can't punch it in on two tries from the two-yard line (or so) against a mid-tier Pac 10 team, then I'm not sure why you got on the plane in the first place.

I'm not trying to fallaciously extrapolate one game (Alabama) and turn that into the whole season for the offense, but I don't think there's any way around the fact that college football seasons turn on a small number of data points -- one or two games, one or two halves, a handful of drives. And over and over again, that 2007 offense failed to get it done in meaningful situations. If your offense sucks against Florida and Alabama, then it sucks. If it can't get a first down for a whole half against Kentucky while you're desperately trying to hang on to a trip to Atlanta, then it sucks. It doesn't matter what your stats are or what your ranking is. That offense couldn't run, couldn't throw downfield -- the only thing they had was Ainge running Cutcliffe's wimpy little three-step drop passing game. Clawson had to start from scratch.

"Dave Clawson singlehandedly ruined the offense" is usually code for "Dave Clawson got Fulmer fired." It ignores the giant hole Clawson was starting in. "Hi Dave, welcome to Knoxville; your office is over there. You don't have a proven quarterback; Austin Rogers is your best receiver; your best running back can't hang onto the ball. You have a crappy offensive line with a terrible offensive line coach. Now go win some SEC games!"

No new offensive coordinator at an elite football program should have to start with the cupboard as bare as Clawson did.
 
#35
#35
If your offense sucks against Florida and Alabama, then it sucks. If it can't get a first down for a whole half against Kentucky while you're desperately trying to hang on to a trip to Atlanta, then it sucks. It doesn't matter what your stats are or what your ranking is.

"Hi Dave, welcome to Knoxville; your office is over there. You don't have a proven quarterback; Austin Rogers is your best receiver; your best running back can't hang onto the ball. You have a crappy offensive line with a terrible offensive line coach. Now go win some SEC games!"

Yes and yes.

Two excellent points made.
 
#36
#36
Yes and yes.

Two excellent points made.

Ok, we had Gerald Jones, Lucas Taylor and Josh Briscoe...all better than Rodgers, though Briscoe was debatable.

Another thing is Clawson failed miserably at winning the players' respect from the get go.

Cutcliffe was a better QB coach than OC IMO. Not sdaying he wasn't good at calling the offense because he was. But there were certain times like the 2nd Cal game he got way to cute in 2nd and 3rd and short situations instead of just pounding the rock. His play calling against Cal was horrible IMO. No one is perfect, I know, but people act like he is norm chow or something. Chaney and Kiffin are both just as good OCs IMO and we will see how well they can develop QBs, although Chaney was soley responsible for Drew Brees from my understanding.
 
#38
#38
I watched the Cal game from the stands in Berkeley. I don't give our offense any credit for racking up yards and scoring touchdowns after the game was already decided. They couldn't get out of their own way in the meaningful half of the game. If you can't punch it in on two tries from the two-yard line (or so) against a mid-tier Pac 10 team, then I'm not sure why you got on the plane in the first place.

I'm not trying to fallaciously extrapolate one game (Alabama) and turn that into the whole season for the offense, but I don't think there's any way around the fact that college football seasons turn on a small number of data points -- one or two games, one or two halves, a handful of drives. And over and over again, that 2007 offense failed to get it done in meaningful situations. If your offense sucks against Florida and Alabama, then it sucks. If it can't get a first down for a whole half against Kentucky while you're desperately trying to hang on to a trip to Atlanta, then it sucks. It doesn't matter what your stats are or what your ranking is. That offense couldn't run, couldn't throw downfield -- the only thing they had was Ainge running Cutcliffe's wimpy little three-step drop passing game. Clawson had to start from scratch.

"Dave Clawson singlehandedly ruined the offense" is usually code for "Dave Clawson got Fulmer fired." It ignores the giant hole Clawson was starting in. "Hi Dave, welcome to Knoxville; your office is over there. You don't have a proven quarterback; Austin Rogers is your best receiver; your best running back can't hang onto the ball. You have a crappy offensive line with a terrible offensive line coach. Now go win some SEC games!"

No new offensive coordinator at an elite football program should have to start with the cupboard as bare as Clawson did.

I'm not saying Dave Clawson got Fulmer fired; fulmer got fulmer fired, but that's a different story. I realize too our players weren't as good in the past b/c, well, 07 was played with many of the recruits of 05, which was just an ok class. But what was there was still much more manageable than the results he got. That team should have had at least 6-7 wins at worst and had some semblance of a passing game at all.

And while your feelings are strong about the 07 offense, I'm again saying that if a new offensive coach comes in, and he puts in his new style of offense, and the teams results drop from and output of somewhere in the 20s or top 3rd to the bottom of the cellar of 115 teams or so, then I think that yes, a fair or great amount of blame falls on the offensive coordinator b/c it is his offense. As far as that half of the gameplay went, clawson drove the truck off a cliff.

Now, who knows, he may after a year or two at bowling green and be a fantastic coach and jump to the NFL, i don't know. But he dropped the ball here. Part of being a coach is being able to take what you're given - whether you like it or not - and make it work. And he was given most of the pieces of a functioning passing game (a top 20, and that crappy line gave up a single digit total of sacks) and under him it turned to 109. Alot of coaches can come in and, even with a bare cupboard, end up w/ less of a descent than 90 places. I think it is very fair to place a lot of blame on offense and even the overall record on clawson's 116th ranked offense.

Believe me, the cup didn't runneth over like at USC or Florida, but that cupboard was still pretty far from bare.

And I know that it was nit, and never said that that offense was, a powerhouse or great that year, but it sure as hell wasn't that defense that won most of those ten games that year.

And I was waiting to see how long till someone would try to call out my argument as fulmer supporter"...it's not :sigh:

(also, of note, there were no stats or touchdowns racked up after the game was already out of reach, check the scoring and play-by-play summary. that's something that would be better argued under the inept second half or something.)
 
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#39
#39
Vercingetorix that is exactly how I see 2007 and Clawson. In addition to your fine points I'd add that it was somewhat unfair to hire Clawson, expect to install an entirely new offense and allow Clawson to only bring along one coach familiar with his system. I wasn't there, but my impression was that a key component of the success of the offense, the Oline coach, didn't buy in and was probably passively resistant in addition to not being a very good technique coach to begin with.

I still don't believe that Fulmer simply turned over the entire Tennessee offensive system that he'd known and coached all those years at Tennessee to a young guy from DII. So what we probably got was a strange hybrid that didn't work for anyone, was poorly taught and poorly understood. It was a huge mess that is ultimately all on Fulmer's management ability.

Also not mentioned was the horrible lack of discipline that has been an unfortunate feature of Fulmer coached teams absent Cutcliffe.

Assuming this was the case, if the HC or any leader doesn't fully support an important subordinate/assistant coach then the rest of the team and coaches won't either. Clawson was doomed from the get go.
 
#40
#40
...But there were certain times like the 2nd Cal game he got way to cute in 2nd and 3rd and short situations instead of just pounding the rock...

...Chaney and Kiffin are both just as good OCs IMO and we will see how well they can develop QBs, although Chaney was soley responsible for Drew Brees from my understanding.

You can't pound the rock if your oline consistently can't move the dline in short yardage situations. Also remember that Cal had one of the best DTs in college football. While I'm no fan of Cutcliff's love of the short passing game ahead of all else and sometimes predictable play calling, he knew what he had and he knew that what he had couldn't get a yard on the ground when they needed it...thank the recruiting, S&C and Oline coaches - two areas that Fulmer should have noted as issues and upgraded but didn't.

I'm hopeful as well about Chaney and Kiffin, but until we see them perform in the SEC I'll reserve total optimism...learned my lesson after last year.
 
#41
#41
I don't mean to pile on Fulmer and thought he earned a return in 2008, but the more distance I get from the last 8 yrs or so the worse it looks in retrospect. After Cutcliff left he was lost.
 
#43
#43
Lost, eh? Aside from ignoring the pink elephant in the room (the fact that every program outside the recruiting-rich programs saw a decline when they each obtained elite recruiters or coaches this decade, a first in integrated college football history), let's look at that "lost" idea since "Cucliffe left."

1999. BCS Bowl. Two close losses on the road to two teams that spent substantial time in the top 10 and a close loss to Nebraska in the bowl game. Had to deal with a shoulder-injured QB all year and a TB not fully back from ACL injury. Offense achieved equal to talent level given competition.

2000: Took a freshman QB, also hurt early in the season, and young offense to 8-4. Offense overachieved given youth and competition.

2001: Upset Florida as an 18 point underdog in Spurrier's last game ever at Florida Field and whipped Michigan in the NYD bowl game. The loss to a good and underrated LSU team in the SEC title game was tough, but we overachieved to be there in the first place. Offense overachieved given talent level and competition.

2002: Injury riddled season still led to 8 wins. Offense beriddled with injury.

2003: Share part of the SEC East title. Averaged a solid 28 points a game against a quality schedule. Offense overachieved given talent level and competition.

2004: Win SEC East title. Averaged 29 points a game with two freshman QB both of whom would be out of the season with injuries two-thirds into the season. Offense most definitely overachieved.

2005: The only true debacle year other than 2008.

Lost, eh?
 
#44
#44
(also, of note, there were no stats or touchdowns racked up after the game was already out of reach, check the scoring and play-by-play summary. that's something that would be better argued under the inept second half or something.)

The Cal game was over early. I know we were "only" two scores down for most of the second half -- I remember saying the same thing repeatedly, as though I was trying to convince myself -- but nobody in that stadium seriously thought UT was going to come back and win the game.

The offensive line was a sham. They couldn't run block at all, and even at the time the consensus was that the only reason they gave up so few sacks was because
of how quickly Ainge rushed to get rid of the ball. I remember laughing at Mark May in a preseason show last year when he talked about how great our returning OL was going to be.

Again, I'm not really defending Clawson -- he was put in an impossible position, yes, but he sure as heck didn't do anything to help matters out. The doctor may have committed malpractice, but the patient was already terminally sick anyway.
 
#45
#45
Lost, eh? Aside from ignoring the pink elephant in the room (the fact that every program outside the recruiting-rich programs saw a decline when they each obtained elite recruiters or coaches this decade, a first in integrated college football history), let's look at that "lost" idea since "Cucliffe left."

1999. BCS Bowl. Two close losses on the road to two teams that spent substantial time in the top 10 and a close loss to Nebraska in the bowl game. Had to deal with a shoulder-injured QB all year and a TB not fully back from ACL injury. Offense achieved equal to talent level given competition.

2000: Took a freshman QB, also hurt early in the season, and young offense to 8-4. Offense overachieved given youth and competition.

2001: Upset Florida as an 18 point underdog in Spurrier's last game ever at Florida Field and whipped Michigan in the NYD bowl game. The loss to a good and underrated LSU team in the SEC title game was tough, but we overachieved to be there in the first place. Offense overachieved given talent level and competition.

2002: Injury riddled season still led to 8 wins. Offense beriddled with injury.

2003: Share part of the SEC East title. Averaged a solid 28 points a game against a quality schedule. Offense overachieved given talent level and competition.

2004: Win SEC East title. Averaged 29 points a game with two freshman QB both of whom would be out of the season with injuries two-thirds into the season. Offense most definitely overachieved.

2005: The only true debacle year other than 2008.

Lost, eh?

Huh? The 2001 team was immensely talented and very deserving to play for the SEC title. That team should have been 12-0 and in the Rose bowl playing Miami for the NC.

The 1999 season was a prime example of complacency by the staff. A national champion almost losing to Memphis on its home field? Impressive.

2002 was another fine example of complacency. Injuries yes, but we lost every big game of the season, Arkansas win is debatable.

Where are 2006, 2007 and 2008? Kind of shoot some holes in your argument don't they?

Go back and reread what you wrote above and explain again why fulmer did such a bang up job the past 10 years, you're shooting yourself in the foot. 2004 was the only year we overachieved, and that was greatly facilitated by the fact we were facing Zook and Shula.
 
#47
#47
2001 team was "immensely talented" eh? Let's compare:

QB: UT's QB un-drafted and never makes a roster. Florida's QB would be high draft choice and would start games for a team that made the Super Bowl. LSU had not 1, but 2 QBs get drafted, both make NFL rosters, and Mauck is still there. Big edge to UF & LSU.

RB: We had 1 RB drafted from the impact players on the roster, who was quickly tossed from the NFL. LSU had 2; and their lead RB drew NFL paychecks for years.

WR: LSU had 4 WR & TE off the roster get drafted and draw NFL paychecks, with all 4 making NFL starts. We had a superb TE and a good WR, who has had an up-and-down NFL career, then another WR who is only a special teamer in the NFL. UF's receivers and TE would also see more starts from more of their players than ours. Edge LSU. Edge UF.

Defense: LSU's D & Florida's defense both produced more NFL starts from their roster than ours.

We went up against two more-talented teams; won 1 and lost the other. If LK split UF & Bama, people would call it magic; Fulmer did it in 2001 and dimwitted UT fans call it "failure."
 
#48
#48
...but he certainly did come into a pretty good situation and make the offense god awful

Really? You think it was a good situation? He walked into a situation with no proven QB, not much in the way of dynamic play at RB and an o-line that spent 2007 being protected by Cutcliffe running what amounted to a Run and Shoot offense with a bunch of 3 step drops and 7 yard out routes.
 
#49
#49
Really? You think it was a good situation? He walked into a situation with no proven QB, not much in the way of dynamic play at RB and an o-line that spent 2007 being protected by Cutcliffe running what amounted to a Run and Shoot offense with a bunch of 3 step drops and 7 yard out routes.
That's crazy talk. Look at what great post UT prospects all the guys on that offense have.
 
#50
#50
2001 team was "immensely talented" eh? Let's compare:

QB: UT's QB un-drafted and never makes a roster. Florida's QB would be high draft choice and would start games for a team that made the Super Bowl. LSU had not 1, but 2 QBs get drafted, both make NFL rosters, and Mauck is still there. Big edge to UF & LSU.

RB: We had 1 RB drafted from the impact players on the roster, who was quickly tossed from the NFL. LSU had 2; and their lead RB drew NFL paychecks for years.

WR: LSU had 4 WR & TE off the roster get drafted and draw NFL paychecks, with all 4 making NFL starts. We had a superb TE and a good WR, who has had an up-and-down NFL career, then another WR who is only a special teamer in the NFL. UF's receivers and TE would also see more starts from more of their players than ours. Edge LSU. Edge UF.

Defense: LSU's D & Florida's defense both produced more NFL starts from their roster than ours.

We went up against two more-talented teams; won 1 and lost the other. If LK split UF & Bama, people would call it magic; Fulmer did it in 2001 and dimwitted UT fans call it "failure."

You do realize that you are touting Rex Grossman, right? I'm laughing, but I'll go on.

Yes, the 2001 team was immensely talented:

  • 3 of 4 starting D-linemen played in the NFL (Henderson, Haynesworth & Overstreet); Henderson was a 2 time All-American; Haynesworth is arguably the best DT in the NFL
  • All 3 starting LBs played in the NFL (Moore, Stevenson, Whiteside)
  • All 4 starting DBs played in the NFL (Lott, Greer, Battle, Baker)
  • O-line, 3 out of 5 in NFL (Weary, Wells, Coleman)
  • RB - Stephens made the NFL and was an NCAA All-American
  • WR - Both starting WRs went to the NFL
  • TE - Witten is an NFL Pro-bowler
So lets recap, 10 out of 11 defensive starters went on to the NFL. 7 out of 11 offensive starters went on to the NFL. Any argument discounting the talent on that team is a waste of time.

If it makes you feel better to rationalize fulmers results over the past decade, then fine, go ahead with that. Have fun. Maybe some day you'll wake up.
 

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