Did 5-7 record really reflect talent?

#51
#51
General Jack said:
You do realize that you are touting Rex Grossman, right? I'm laughing, but I'll go on.

Yes, the 2001 team was immensely talented:

  • 3 of 4 starting D-linemen played in the NFL (Henderson, Haynesworth & Overstreet); Henderson was a 2 time All-American; Haynesworth is arguably the best DT in the NFL
  • All 3 starting LBs played in the NFL (Moore, Stevenson, Whiteside)
  • All 4 starting DBs played in the NFL (Lott, Greer, Battle, Baker)
  • O-line, 3 out of 5 in NFL (Weary, Wells, Coleman)
  • RB - Stephens made the NFL and was an NCAA All-American
  • WR - Both starting WRs went to the NFL
  • TE - Witten is an NFL Pro-bowler
So lets recap, 10 out of 11 defensive starters went on to the NFL. 7 out of 11 offensive starters went on to the NFL. Any argument discounting the talent on that team is a waste of time.

If it makes you feel better to rationalize fulmers results over the past decade, then fine, go ahead with that. Have fun. Maybe some day you'll wake up.
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Wowzers...What a demolition.

No one wants to talk about what happened at LSU but here is a hint, compare the NFL talent from the Nebraska team that HUMILIATED Peyton Manning in his last college game and UT that season. Chavis could not scheme. Period. He had good-great players, he could stop the run and his scheme worked against pro style offenses. We almost lost to tons of HORRIBLE talent level option teams, and we got ROLLED by option teams with talent. Chavis against TN with that awesome LSU talent? Run some option against him and watch him die inside. Or you can try running for no yards for two plays in a row up the middle and then throwing to your wide open WR or TE thanks to the Mustang defense to pick up your first down.
 
#52
#52
VegasVol said:
2001 team was "immensely talented" eh? Let's compare:

QB: UT's QB un-drafted and never makes a roster. Florida's QB would be high draft choice and would start games for a team that made the Super Bowl. LSU had not 1, but 2 QBs get drafted, both make NFL rosters, and Mauck is still there. Big edge to UF & LSU.

RB: We had 1 RB drafted from the impact players on the roster, who was quickly tossed from the NFL. LSU had 2; and their lead RB drew NFL paychecks for years.

WR: LSU had 4 WR & TE off the roster get drafted and draw NFL paychecks, with all 4 making NFL starts. We had a superb TE and a good WR, who has had an up-and-down NFL career, then another WR who is only a special teamer in the NFL. UF's receivers and TE would also see more starts from more of their players than ours. Edge LSU. Edge UF.

Defense: LSU's D & Florida's defense both produced more NFL starts from their roster than ours.

We went up against two more-talented teams; won 1 and lost the other. If LK split UF & Bama, people would call it magic; Fulmer did it in 2001 and dimwitted UT fans call it "failure."
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Are you seriously trying to argue that 2001 LSU had more talent than 2001 UT? Even a decent coaching staff would have taken the 2001 team to the NC game with at worst an 11-1 record (may not have beaten Miami in that game, but we'll obviously never know). If the new staff (or something comparable to it) had been coaching here that year, we beat LSU in that game by a minimum of 3 TDs.

Not to mention, we beat LSU handily in Knoxville earlier that season, and LSU wasn't missing its entire starting backfield like they were in the SECCG.
 
#53
#53
sjt18 said:
I disagree. At least part of those 7 yard misses were because receivers read the route wrong. With a few exceptions that his haters howled over, JC just took the blame.

It also didn't help that the OL was playing bullfighter... and scheme had little to do with that. They just flat got beat... and often.

Notice where CLK spent much of their time this spring and the one thing he consistently criticized... drop back pass protection.




The pass protection thing was Clawsons fault. His scheme called for pulling and switching regularly. Our OL was confused last year. You do not have to take my word for it, look up the interviews our OL gave this spring about the coaching change. They now have to get out of their stance and hit whoever is in front of them. On a running play, run forward and hit people in front of you. On a passing play, stand up and hit the people in front of you. That is so easy for these guys and I think people will be shocked at the difference it makes especially for the tackles.
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#54
#54
MikeHamiltonFan said:
With the spirit of your question.

Last year our offense linemen have said in interviews that they were uncomfortable and often did not know what they were doing. The clawfense seemed to confuse and frustrate our players so that we could not score 40 against Maryville College.

Also we do not have to deal with fumbles at key points in the game from our RB over and over and over.

I think this team will be significantly better. Our O Line will seem better to everyone when they are just setting up (as skinnier and more in shape men) and blasting people. I think our QB will look better and I even believe Crompton will be drafted. When that happens everyone on here will say, "well I always said he was talented."

Brandon Warren instead of unused TE becoming regularly thrown to WR who can throw off of him any 1 on 1 DB including in the SEC? Great stuff.

Nukeese will look like Percy Harvin looked his freshman year. Bryce Brown will look like Jamal Lewis looked his freshman year. Can you guys see how important that is? Jamal did not play against UF because Fulmer loves seniors and because he did not know all the blitz pick ups. Kiffin has already said that will not keep our freshmen out.
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I agree totally with you but I would like to add one thought. Talent at the college level is such a relative comodity. In the days of Bear Bryant, a program could stockpile talent. Not today. Florida, USC, Texas, etc. can only sign x number of players. There is more parity in college football than when I first started watching in the early 70's. As a result, to say that Tennessee has less talent than Florida is misleading. We have the same amount of talent, for whatever reason, we have not achieved to the same degree of success,lately, that Florida, USC and Texas have achieved. I loved Coach Fulmer and I hated to see him go, but he was the problem not our level of talent. If the coaches that we have hired can infuse the desire to excel that Meyers and Carroll have succeeded in infusing into their programs, Tennessee will be back on top quickly. If they can't, we'll be looking for a new coaching staff again in a few short years.
 
#55
#55
Vol71 said:
I agree totally with you but I would like to add one thought. Talent at the college level is such a relative comodity. In the days of Bear Bryant, a program could stockpile talent. Not today. Florida, USC, Texas, etc. can only sign x number of players. There is more parity in college football than when I first started watching in the early 70's. As a result, to say that Tennessee has less talent than Florida is misleading. We have the same amount of talent, for whatever reason, we have not achieved to the same degree of success,lately, that Florida, USC and Texas have achieved. I loved Coach Fulmer and I hated to see him go, but he was the problem not our level of talent. If the coaches that we have hired can infuse the desire to excel that Meyers and Carroll have succeeded in infusing into their programs, Tennessee will be back on top quickly. If they can't, we'll be looking for a new coaching staff again in a few short years.
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If you think Tennessee and Florida have remotely comparable talent right now, you might want to see your physician. Hallucinations can be a symptom of a serious problem.
 
#56
#56
There's not a talent gap right now between Tennessee and Florida. It's more of a talent gulf.
 
#57
#57
hatvol96 said:
If you think Tennessee and Florida have remotely comparable talent right now, you might want to see your physician. Hallucinations can be a symptom of a serious problem.
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Yes, I believe that Tennessee and Florida have remotely similiar talent. I believe that for the reasons that I stated earlier. I believe coaching is where Tennessee has been lacking in the recent past.
 
#58
#58
GAVol said:
There's not a talent gap right now between Tennessee and Florida. It's more of a talent gulf.
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There isn't a coach in the country who would have won more than 8 games with Tennessee's personnel last year.
 
#59
#59
Vol71 said:
Yes, I believe that Tennessee and Florida have remotely similiar talent. I believe that for the reasons that I stated earlier. I believe coaching is where Tennessee has been lacking in the recent past.
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Yeah, I was just thinking how comparable Tim Tebow and Jonathan Crompton are. That's the microcosm of Tennessee's macro talent problem right now.
 
#60
#60
Vol71 said:
I believe that for the reasons that I stated earlier.
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You mean the fact everyone has the same number of scholarships? I bet New Mexico State is going to be shocked they have comparable talent to Oklahoma by virtue of having an equal number of rides.
 
#61
#61
hatvol96 said:
There isn't a coach in the country who would have won more than 8 games with Tennessee's personnel last year.
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Hatvol, I respectfully submit that unless you have a crystal ball how exactly would you know that. The coach the year before won 10 games with that talent and played in the SEC championship game. Admittedly, two major changes occurred. The Offensive Coordinator changed and the quarterback changed. I believe that if the offensive coordinator had not changed, we would have won at least 8 games last year.

One last point, keep your personal opinions about me to yourself. I treat you with respect, you do the same.
 
#62
#62
hatvol96 said:
There isn't a coach in the country who would have won more than 8 games with Tennessee's personnel last year.
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You really think? We ended the 2007 season with a pretty solid beatdown of a decent Wisconsin team, and played LSU tough in the SECCG. Things were looking up.

I actually think if Cut had stayed around we might have squeaked out 9 wins again. The offensive woes cost us 3 wins minimum, maybe even 4 (UCLA, Auburn, Wyoming for sure, Georgia/USCe being the wildcards).

Fortunately though Cut didn't stick, and we got the much needed change.
 
#63
#63
Talent? yes...Depth? no...Coaching? CPF was totally lost without Cut and had no idea what to do with Clawson. Top that with no QB coach and you have what we had.

This year UT will be out for redemption with Management in place to get the job done.
 
#64
#64
Vol71 said:
Hatvol, I respectfully submit that unless you have a crystal ball how exactly would you know that. The coach the year before won 10 games with that talent and played in the SEC championship game. Admittedly, two major changes occurred. The Offensive Coordinator changed and the quarterback changed. I believe that if the offensive coordinator had not changed, we would have won at least 8 games last year.

One last point, keep your personal opinions about me to yourself. I treat you with respect, you do the same.
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Here's a point, if you make ridiculous assertions, you'll get made fun of here. If you can't handle it, I'm sure Volquest or some other sheep site will be glad to have you.
 
#65
#65
General Jack said:
You really think? We ended the 2007 season with a pretty solid beatdown of a decent Wisconsin team, and played LSU tough in the SECCG. Things were looking up.

I actually think if Cut had stayed around we might have squeaked out 9 wins again. The offensive woes cost us 3 wins minimum, maybe even 4 (UCLA, Auburn, Wyoming for sure, Georgia/USCe being the wildcards).

Fortunately though Cut didn't stick, and we got the much needed change.
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Georgia and South Carolina both kicked our teeth out. Bill Walsh calling plays wouldn't have changed that.
 
#66
#66
The question is who had better talent. The claim the team "should have been" 12-0 was the claim.

Grossman was a much better talent than Clausen, pure and simple. One "laughed" his way to million dollar paydays and Super Bowl starts; the other couldn't make it out of summer camp to be on the practice squad. LSU had 2 QBs play in the NFL off their roster; we had 0. Are you one of those folks saying our QB disadvantage this year doesn't matter?

So, "let's recap."

PLAYERS BY TEAM WHO WENT ON TO THE NFL

UT 17
UF 23
LSU 21
MIAMI 33

But we were "better" than everybody else and "should" have been undefeated?
 
#67
#67
One of the thing that worries me the most is our lack of depth. I think we can hang talent wise with most teams in the SEC, excluding UF & LSU, on a 1 deep chart. After that we are screwed.
 
#68
#68
Vol71 said:
Hatvol, I respectfully submit that unless you have a crystal ball how exactly would you know that.
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You don't need a crystal ball to see Tennessee got hammered by Florida, Georgia, Alabama, and South Carolina, just two functioning eyes and a modicum of football knowledge. The coach hasn't been born who would have made a difference in those beatings.
 
#69
#69
"Here's a point, if you make ridiculous assertions, you'll get made fun of here. If you can't handle it, I'm sure Volquest or some other sheep site will be glad to have you."

True -- Hatvol has a licensed monopoly on ridiculous assertions and works hard to keep his #1 status in that category.
 
#70
#70
hatvol96 said:
Here's a point, if you make ridiculous assertions, you'll get made fun of here. If you can't handle it, I'm Volquest or some other sheep site will be glad to have you.
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LOL!! So much for respect. Please let me know what else your crystal ball tells you.
 
#72
#72
"Are you seriously trying to argue that 2001 LSU had more talent than 2001 UT?"

The NFL thought so. They put 2 LSU QBs in the NFL; we got none. They put 4 wideouts or tight ends to start in the NFL; we put 2. They put 2 RBs in the NFL; our 1 panned out fast. They had 19 NFL draft choices from that roster; we had 21, but they had 2 NFL QBs, and we had none. So yes, I'd say they were at least as talented, but given the QB edge, more talented.
 
#73
#73
hatvol96 said:
You mean the fact everyone has the same number of scholarships? I bet New Mexico State is going to be shocked they have comparable talent to Oklahoma by virtue of having an equal number of rides.
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Ten to fifteen years ago, Utah wasn't on anyone's football map. Let's ask Alabama about Utah now. It's called parity and if New Mexico State hired the right coach then I would venture that they could compete with Oklahoma in a few years. Quit making my points for me Hatvol.
 
#74
#74
Dr Dread said:
Most of the pre-season predictions that I've seen, as well as numerous posts on the forums have the Vols hoping for a bowl game; and view a 9-4 record as quite a bit of over-achieving for the upcomming season. They often site last season's 5-7 record, and a lack of talent as reasons for thier opinions. But after seeing turn-around the vols made the season after they brought Coach Cut back, I have to ask this question.

How much was last season's 5-7 record a reflection of talent, and how much did it reflect coaching?
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If I am not mistaken only real loss was at the QB position last year from 07. I also don't know if/how much effect Ainge's short drop backs covered for a bad offensive line. I do know after the 08 UGA/UT game one of the UGA LB's was quoted saying something to the effect that he knew which way the plays were being run by how the offensive line lined up for UT. That told me a lot there.

I guess another way of asking your question is why did UT's offense drop so much from 07 to 08 when majority of the offense returned from 07.
 
#75
#75
Vol71 said:
Ten to fifteen years ago, Utah wasn't on anyone's football map. Let's ask Alabama about Utah now. It's called parity and if New Mexico State hired the right coach then I would venture that they could compete with Oklahoma in a few years. Quit making my points for me Hatvol.
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Yeah, you have great points. I'm just waiting for the New Mexico State-Baylor BCS Title game that's coming when they hire the "right" coaches.
 
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