D'Andre Payne

[bowlinggreenvol]

Please list the 8 players you speak of and break each one down and tell us simpletons why it's a big deal that they are leaving. Outside of Hendrix, Helm and Scott which I hate to lose what are we missing from the other 5 players.

Maybe if Barnett and Maggitt go down next year having minimal DE's on the roster won't hurt.

 

[GLDunlap]

Maybe if Barnett and Maggitt go down next year having minimal DE's on the roster won't hurt.

Did I say anything about minimal DE's? No I ask you to list the 5 players outside of Hendrix Helm and Scott that are leaving and why you think it matters. I have seen several times how you avoid anyone that makes sense or just try to twist their posts to fit your agenda.

 

[vol-un-tear]

So you now contradict your point about being glad Kamara left Alabama, since your logic is Kamara wasn't good enough to be the 6th best RB at Alabama or wants to "give up football."

You are reading into it too much. Play words etc... Henry is why Kamara left Bama. He is welcome to the team. I often have no logic just opinions. We may agree to disagree but there is nothing we can do but move on and hope for the best. Go Vols!!

 

[ShowMeVol]

He gone?

 

[smokey0625]

Did I say anything about minimal DE's? No I ask you to list the 5 players outside of Hendrix Helm and Scott that are leaving and why you think it matters. I have seen several times how you avoid anyone that makes sense or just try to twist their posts to fit your agenda.

You and Butchna are only feeding the 13 year old machine. He's like jameis winston stealing crab legs. He's stupid. Move on. Ignore and move on.

 

[GLDunlap]

You and Butchna are only feeding the 13 year old machine. He's like jameis winston stealing crab legs. He's stupid. Move on. Ignore and move on.

Good point.

 

[butchna]

You and Butchna are only feeding the 13 year old machine. He's like jameis winston stealing crab legs. He's stupid. Move on. Ignore and move on.

I know you're correct but it's the dynamic of the usually ignored crazy street preacher...:crazy: sometimes you ask him just why does he think that Ecuador is planning to invade. :dunno:

 

[sjt18]

Not if we are bringing in good talent. And fools players didn't leave. Unfortunately his players only left if they committed a crime or jones ran them off.

So... again the unanswered question by you guys... Does experience vs youth matter as much as it was said to matter this past year?

Hendrix was very good talent. Miller might have been "good" talent. Helm was very good talent. Payne appeared to be good talent.

Unless most of the defenses of Jones this past fall were completely bogus.... Experienced (2nd-5th year players) with good talent >>>>>>> Fr with good talent.

A constant stream of good talent with a high % gone before starting their 2nd year isn't an answer if the problem is a team that's too young and underdeveloped.

 

[butchna]

So... again the unanswered question by you guys... Does experience vs youth matter as much as it was said to matter this past year?

Hendrix was very good talent. Miller might have been "good" talent. Helm was very good talent. Payne appeared to be good talent.

Unless most of the defenses of Jones this past fall were completely bogus.... Experienced (2nd-5th year players) with good talent >>>>>>> Fr with good talent.

A constant stream of good talent with a high % gone before starting their 2nd year isn't an answer if the problem is a team that's too young and underdeveloped.

I guess we disagree on the level of their experience...I don't feel they played enough to warrant the bemoaning you're doing.

 

[sjt18]

Haven't really studied up in it and don't care...if this is truly the beginning of the end, we'll acknowledge that you and Bowl did the heavy lifting at the post apocalyptic awards dinner...until then, these benchmarks you incessantly cite from OTHER programs are going to be disregarded...there's no set blueprint for rebuilding a powerhouse and since Ole Miss and Mississippi State aren't traditional powers, I'm not sure why you continue to use them as examples. I don't know that Butch's way will work, but I'm willing to risk HIS job that he succeeds...gonna happen that way regardless.

You could have saved bandwidth by just saying that you aren't willing to consider anything that might cast any doubt on the staff.

If I seem to post it "incessantly" it is only because the same blather keeps coming from those determined to spin everything in a way that they can believe "everything's just fine". If those folks will stop pretending that the loss of good talent in the way it is being lost is somehow not a bad thing and may very well reflect something the staff isn't doing well... then I won't have to "incessantly" challenge their thinking, OK?

 

[KKruzVFL]

The guys were freshman so we really dont know what they would have developed into. They were all 4 stars so Im sure half would have eventually been staters. We just didnt need to lose all of these guys because it hurts our depth. Something this program needs right now.We are damn if we do and damn if we dont. We have complained for years about not having enough talent which is a farce.And then when we get talent we cant hang on to them.

 

[butchna]

You could have saved bandwidth by just saying that you aren't willing to consider anything that might cast any doubt on the staff.

If I seem to post it "incessantly" it is only because the same blather keeps coming from those determined to spin everything in a way that they can believe "everything's just fine". If those folks will stop pretending that the loss of good talent in the way it is being lost is somehow not a bad thing and may very well reflect something the staff isn't doing well... then I won't have to "incessantly" challenge their thinking, OK?

It's a difference of opinion...you don't believe anyone else's is valid...hence the angst and turmoil in every one of your posts. You give away your haute tendencies when you use words like "blather" and "pretend" when referring to counter arguments...I don't begrudge you the soothing pain and worry that you revel in...just quit getting all perplexed when we don't join in.

 

[sjt18]

Are you counting Henderson and Paulk? If so, I don't see how you would count them as "lost returnees". If Butch doesn't succeed we'll be smart enough to realize it...worrying about failure that hasn't happened doesn't sound like much fun...I'll pass.

The players have left and regardless of why you think they left or why they actually left... each to a varying degree is a "failure".

The interviews and testing recruits are subjected to are designed to reveal strengths and risks. Maybe the wrong questions are being asked. Maybe the wrong risks are being taken with regard to emotional make up, academics, athleticism, or some other factor?

Maybe... Jones' perception of his staff is skewed. That might cause him to sign guys who don't mesh with them.... who can't take their style of coaching.

This is a current problem that is evidenced by players leaving that needs to be fixed. It isn't a future problem or projection of catastrophic failure... just an honest, eyes open recognition that something isn't is perfect as you want to imagine.

 

[sjt18]

Did I say anything about minimal DE's? No I ask you to list the 5 players outside of Hendrix Helm and Scott that are leaving and why you think it matters. I have seen several times how you avoid anyone that makes sense or just try to twist their posts to fit your agenda.

If those two were to get injured, the departure of Miller would become a pretty big deal.

 

[butchna]

The players have left and regardless of why you think they left or why they actually left... each to a varying degree is a "failure".

The interviews and testing recruits are subjected to are designed to reveal strengths and risks. Maybe the wrong questions are being asked. Maybe the wrong risks are being taken with regard to emotional make up, academics, athleticism, or some other factor?

Maybe... Jones' perception of his staff is skewed. That might cause him to sign guys who don't mesh with them.... who can't take their style of coaching.

This is a current problem that is evidenced by players leaving that needs to be fixed. It isn't a future problem or projection of catastrophic failure... just an honest, eyes open recognition that something isn't is perfect as you want to imagine.

Nor as dire and morose as you espouse...nothing could be.

 

[butchna]

If those two were to get injured, the departure of Miller would become a pretty big deal.

Mixon replaces him easy...Miller was a body...we have those.

 

[smokey0625]

So... again the unanswered question by you guys... Does experience vs youth matter as much as it was said to matter this past year?

Hendrix was very good talent. Miller might have been "good" talent. Helm was very good talent. Payne appeared to be good talent.

Unless most of the defenses of Jones this past fall were completely bogus.... Experienced (2nd-5th year players) with good talent >>>>>>> Fr with good talent.

A constant stream of good talent with a high % gone before starting their 2nd year isn't an answer if the problem is a team that's too young and underdeveloped.

I agree with butchna. I don't think they have played enough to warrant the judgement by folks that they can actually play in the SEC at a quality level. I do know that if they leave it usually means they could not take it at this level. Si did an study on this a few years ago.
For players like peterman leaving, I know what he can do and it isn't much. I would rather have a talented unknown frosh than him. Because, he can't be any worse than Peterman.

 

[sjt18]

It's a difference of opinion...you don't believe anyone else's is valid...

If they cannot or do not answer all of the facts... and challenges cannot be answered then how would you characterize them.

You assume you know my opinion more often than not. I say there's a problem and you automatically assume I am condemning the staff to ultimate failure. That simply isn't the case.

hence the angst and turmoil in every one of your posts.

I can see how someone who would rather ignore problems would consider it "angst and turmoil" when someone points those problems out.... but I honestly do not have any "angst or turmoil". This is a problem. Leaders are hired to identify and solve problems. Jones' success will depend very much on figuring out why he's losing talented players so soon. If that somehow offends you... then I'm sorry.

You give away your haute tendencies when you use words like "blather" and "pretend" when referring to counter arguments...

Yeah so your "haute tendencies" are revealed when you say I "incessantly" repeat the same thing... in response to the same arguments, right?

I don't begrudge you the soothing pain and worry that you revel in...just quit getting all perplexed when we don't join in.

You really can't take it can you? Someone points out something that doesn't let you ignore unpleasant things and possibilities... and they must be "bad, bad" people who are miserable and have awful intentions. You make lame attempts at mockery because you really just want it to go away...


Let's "sooth your pain and worry" over my posts a bit. I don't hate Jones or expect him to fail. I also do not expect him to succeed without setbacks and/or failures. This recent attrition IS a problem that I am very hopeful he will solve very, very quickly.

I do argue with posters here that refuse to acknowledge problems or attempt handwave them away. That isn't just a "difference of opinion". As Patrick Moynihan once quipped: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”

I also challenge the logic of those whose "different opinion" is that these losses do not hurt. I have asked a simple question that I haven't seen answered by you or anyone else in a few different versions.

Essentially: If losing players that have a little experience and development is not a problem or a problem that is answered by incoming freshmen.... then how can the excuse of too much youth be valid going forward?

 

[smokey0625]

If those two were to get injured, the departure of Miller would become a pretty big deal.

We have 3 quality DEs. Next year prolly grow to 4 or 5. It then becomes quality depth level. Calm down. Depth takes years not over night.

 

[GLDunlap]

if those two were to get injured, the departure of miller would become a pretty big deal.

I never once said losing Miller wouldn't hurt depth a little. That said if those two were to get injured we're screwed anyway. Miller was a below average prospect and player. I think any of the freshman de's could easily replace Miller's 2 total tackles in 2014. Also we still have Latroy Lewis, Corey Vereen and I wouldn't be surprised to see Jakob Johnson move back to De all of which would be better options then Miller. Besides that why is this worth discussing? If Miller wants to leave then sobeit we can't cower in the corner and suck our thumbs.

 

[sjt18]

I agree with butchna. I don't think they have played enough to warrant the judgement by folks that they can actually play in the SEC at a quality level. I do know that if they leave it usually means they could not take it at this level. Si did an study on this a few years ago.
For players like peterman leaving, I know what he can do and it isn't much. I would rather have a talented unknown frosh than him. Because, he can't be any worse than Peterman.

I agree that this is often the case but do not agree that it completely explains the rash of players that have left... and especially those who have earned PT. Attrition happens. It happens in every program. But I have not seen it happen so early with so many players either in my time closely following UT or with other programs I am aware of. Usually the 20-30% or so that are lost from each class are more spread out. IOW's, Peterman leaving would be more "normal" than Hendrix leaving.

I speculated that maybe the post-season meetings that Jones had with the players was an impetus. Maybe he has a way of culling guys who ultimately won't make it so that he doesn't waste his time with them. I think this does help explain those who haven't played or carved out a significant role. However it would not seem to apply to several of them. And it would be odd for him to play young players only to run them off before they are fully developed.

I can't remember any team that lost players between the season and bowl like this... that part is odd.

 

[butchna]

If they cannot or do not answer all of the facts... and challenges cannot be answered then how would you characterize them.

You assume you know my opinion more often than not. I say there's a problem and you automatically assume I am condemning the staff to ultimate failure. That simply isn't the case.

I can see how someone who would rather ignore problems would consider it "angst and turmoil" when someone points those problems out.... but I honestly do not have any "angst or turmoil". This is a problem. Leaders are hired to identify and solve problems. Jones' success will depend very much on figuring out why he's losing talented players so soon. If that somehow offends you... then I'm sorry.



Yeah so your "haute tendencies" are revealed when you say I "incessantly" repeat the same thing... in response to the same arguments, right?

You really can't take it can you? Someone points out something that doesn't let you ignore unpleasant things and possibilities... and they must be "bad, bad" people who are miserable and have awful intentions. You make lame attempts at mockery because you really just want it to go away...


Let's "sooth your pain and worry" over my posts a bit. I don't hate Jones or expect him to fail. I also do not expect him to succeed without setbacks and/or failures. This recent attrition IS a problem that I am very hopeful he will solve very, very quickly.

I do argue with posters here that refuse to acknowledge problems or attempt handwave them away. That isn't just a "difference of opinion". As Patrick Moynihan once quipped: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”

I also challenge the logic of those whose "different opinion" is that these losses do not hurt. I have asked a simple question that I haven't seen answered by you or anyone else in a few different versions.

Essentially: If losing players that have a little experience and development no is not a problem or a problem that is answered by incoming freshmen.... then how can the excuse of too much youth be valid going forward?

I hate quoting this because I have latent reluctance to waste paper and your posts would have destroyed rainforests back in the day...you anticipate failure and the follow up excuses, so you argue it out before it happens...bully for you. You don't ask questions...you drone on and on about how our program is doomed and take any dissent as a personal affront. Feel free to run to the hills well in advance of the impending disaster...just don't get ornery when you tire of arguing with yourself at your lonely campfire and then wander back down to civilization with your same tired schtick.

 

[sjt18]

Mixon replaces him easy...Miller was a body...we have those.

Mixon helps if he moves outside. There could also be a LB that can play DE.

The early attrition is still a problem that needs to be resolved. Just my guess... but I would imagine that Jones is taking a very close look at their recruiting profile for DL's especially DE's.

 

[smokey0625]

I agree that this is often the case but do not agree that it completely explains the rash of players that have left... and especially those who have earned PT. Attrition happens. It happens in every program. But I have not seen it happen so early with so many players either in my time closely following UT or with other programs I am aware of. Usually the 20-30% or so that are lost from each class are more spread out. IOW's, Peterman leaving would be more "normal" than Hendrix leaving.

I speculated that maybe the post-season meetings that Jones had with the players was an impetus. Maybe he has a way of culling guys who ultimately won't make it so that he doesn't waste his time with them. I think this does help explain those who haven't played or carved out a significant role. However it would not seem to apply to several of them. And it would be odd for him to play young players only to run them off before they are fully developed.

I can't remember any team that lost players between the season and bowl like this... that part is odd.

Sabans first two years were mass exodus as he recruited over kids. GA lost 10 freshmen from 2013 to 2014 and that's just freshmen. I didn't count uppers who left. We lost 7 freshmen, 2 were not on jones. They were out his hands due to academic fraud and one due to hitting his gf.

 

[sjt18]

I hate quoting this because I have latent reluctance to waste paper and your posts would have destroyed rainforests back in the day...you anticipate failure and the follow up excuses, so you argue it out before it happens...bully for you.

This is about as valid as the accusation that it "wastes paper" to electronically quote it.

You don't ask questions...you drone on and on about how our program is doomed and take any dissent as a personal affront.

Nope. But I know that makes you feel better. You need to make it about me and not the actual problems. "Bully for you".

Cite one place where I have said that Jones will fail much less that the program is doomed. You can't but feel the need to use hyperbole.

Feel free to run to the hills well in advance of the impending disaster...just don't get ornery when you tire of arguing with yourself at your lonely campfire and then wander back down to civilization with your same tired schtick.

lol:lol:

Your tendency to build strawmen is amusing.

You're right. I am a bad, bad guy who hates Jones and UT football... :crazy: ORRRRR I'm just a guy who really doesn't want to see an acute problem turn into a chronic one in such a way that Jones fails when I so badly hope he will succeed in a huge way?