Dabo vs Butch

#201
#201
JC61 said:
once again....the historical significance of Neyland is acknowledged.

Look at the past 30 years of CFB and tell me which program has seemingly produced a better winning average....and probably expected to win by their fans, too.

As far as talent advantage the past 4 years....I'd beg to disagree, and it'd probably go farther back than that.
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Tennessee had more wins than Clemson in the last 30 years. Tennessee's fan base is way larger and has way higher expectations. I wasn't comparing the last 4 years. I was comparing Dabo's first 4 to Butch's first 4 and there is not really a comparison there. I stand firmly by my statement that what Dabo has done at Clemson is a hell of a lot harder to do than it would have been at Tennessee.
 
#203
#203
Tin Man said:
Dooley vs Butch?

Derek: 6-7 (2010) Music City Bowl loss, 5-7 (2011), 4-7 (2012) Fired after 11th game.
Lyle: 5-7 (2013), 7-6 (2014) Taxslayer Bowl win, 9-4 (2015) Outback Bowl win, 9-4 (2016) Music City Bowl win.

I'd say hiring Jones is a step in the right direction.

Note: Hart replaced Hamilton in 2011. When he hired Jones, men's athletics at Tennessee had yet to recover. To put it politely, it was financially thin. The football program was in disarray. Jones wanted the job. Other, higher profile coaches demurred.

Note: Tennessee has hired a new Chancellor who has yet to start the job. Tennessee is in the midst of a search for a new AD. One does not fire a coach under contract for the next 4 years in these circumstances. Like it or not, Jones is the HC for 2017 and very likely 2018.

It's the outset of the long wait for Tennessee football. Given the way it is, I choose to indulge in hopefulness, absurd flights of fancy, et al. Y'all are welcome to join me, or, you can continue curmudgeonly slamming CBJ and foretelling the Vols doom. Either way, it won't make one bit of difference in how Team 121 will play.
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See this is the issue. You give Butch a pass because his predecessor was a moronic ass clown that had no business being on the sideline of a P5. Stop basing your expectations for our program based on the results of Derek Dooley. I often hear..."well look where we were with Dooley compared to now." No. I refuse to lower my overall expectations of the Tennessee program because ass hat Hamilton made a dumb hire. Or 2 dumb hires. Also, the "he walked into a dumpster fire" excuse is slowly beginning to fade. He is going into year 5. Year 3 showed that he had developed the roster enough to where good coaching gets you a 10 win season. The roster this year was good enough to get to another 10 win season, win the eastern division, and play in the sugar bowl (including injuries). He blew both years. If he accomplishes the above, no one is blasting him. The divided fan base is his results. I personally became done with him when he embarrassed himself on TV with the "F 'em all" comment. He can say what he wants to cover it up, but anyone with a brain knows exactly what he said and intended. He said that to the people that were paying an asinine amount of money to watch this team compete and has backed/defended his ass since day 1. Back to the topic....Butch is not Dabo. He will more than likely never be Dabo because he can't get out of his own way. In the meantime, I will set back and watch Dabo cherry pick knox area recruits and compete for national titles while our own fan base screams, "BUT THE INJURIES"!!!!
 
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#205
#205
DERELICK_MY_VOLS said:
Butch Jones beat James Franklin while at Cincy...just pointing that out.
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Unfortunately that didn't do Tennessee any good. Context matters.

If we are going to go out of context the same year Butch beat Vandy, and Derek Dooley beat Butch.

So Dooley>Butch>Vandy is what you are suggesting?
 
#207
#207
Bigorangefaninga said:
exactly Franklins best season was 2013 when he beat UT and Jones. Went 9-4 with only win against a ranked team being Georgia, he beat unranked Florida(who jones also lost to) KY and UT. The rest of the wins on his schedule were against juggernauts like Austin Peay, Umass, UAB, Wake Forest and Houston in the bowl game in which they promptly fired their coach who had went 21-17 because as they said he didnt win enough games in which the cougars were favored in and went out and hired Tom Herman who went 22-4 the next 2 years!

so you are saying he beat a higher ranked team once in 4 years here?
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At Vanderbilt.... VANDERBILT
 
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#208
#208
TennVOLS93 said:
See this is the issue. You give Butch a pass because his predecessor was a moronic ass clown that had no business being on the sideline of a P5. Stop basing your expectations for our program based on the results of Derek Dooley. I often hear..."well look where we were with Dooley compared to now." No. I refuse to lower my overall expectations of the Tennessee program because ass hat Hamilton made a dumb hire. Or 2 dumb hires. Also, the "he walked into a dumpster fire" excuse is slowly beginning to fade. He is going into year 5. Year 3 showed that he had developed the roster enough to where good coaching gets you a 10 win season. The roster this year was good enough to get to another 10 win season, win the eastern division, and play in the sugar bowl (including injuries). He blew both years. If he accomplishes the above, no one is blasting him. The divided fan base is his results. I personally became done with him when he embarrassed himself on TV with the "F 'em all" comment. He can say what he wants to cover it up, but anyone with a brain knows exactly what he said and intended. He said that to the people that were paying an asinine amount of money to watch this team compete and has backed/defended his ass since day 1. Back to the topic....Butch is not Dabo. He will more than likely never be Dabo because he can't get out of his own way. In the meantime, I will set back and watch Dabo cherry pick knox area recruits and compete for national titles while our own fan base screams, "BUT THE INJURIES"!!!!
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Yes! Someone gets it!:dance2:
 
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#209
#209
MWAVolfan said:
Unfortunately that didn't do Tennessee any good. Context matters.

If we are going to go out of context the same year Butch beat Vandy, and Derek Dooley beat Butch.

So Dooley>Butch>Vandy is what you are suggesting?
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Ok, I'll play. Butch owns Spurrier and Spurrier owns Dabo. So Butch > Spurrier > Dabo. Also, from this season.. UT > Va Tech > Pitt > Clem.
 
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#212
#212
MWAVolfan said:
Unfortunately that didn't do Tennessee any good. Context matters.

If we are going to go out of context the same year Butch beat Vandy, and Derek Dooley beat Butch.

So Dooley>Butch>Vandy is what you are suggesting?
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Not true....Franklin vs Butch...that was the argument. Ten times a better coach. So you have to look at head to head guy. Taking Tennessee out of it. Franklin vs Butch.

I'm not defending Butch but just saying that one game counts coach vs coach....record vs record head to head.
 
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#213
#213
JFreak said:
Ok, I'll play. Butch owns Spurrier and Spurrier owns Dabo. So Butch > Spurrier > Dabo. Also, from this season.. UT > Va Tech > Pitt > Clem.
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So you understand how Butch beating Vandy while at Cincy is out of context? I'm confused by your post. Are you agreeing with me?
 
#214
#214
MWAVolfan said:
So you understand how Butch beating Vandy while at Cincy is out of context? I'm confused by your post. Are you agreeing with me?
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Manning vs Brady....do you suddenly take out the Colts record Manning and simply compare the Broncos Manning record vs Brady?

That is why you have to take your Butch hate out of it.
 
#215
#215
DERELICK_MY_VOLS said:
Not true....Franklin vs Butch...that was the argument. Ten times a better coach. So you have to look at head to head guy. Taking Tennessee out of it. Franklin vs Butch.

I'm not defending Butch but just saying that one game counts coach vs coach.
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My original statement was that Franklin was more successful in his 3 years at Vandy than Butch in his first 3 at Tennessee. Including beating Butch at Tennessee. And that's after Franklin inherited a program coming off of 2 seasons of 2-10 football and a whole hell of a lot less talent.

That was my comparison. That is what makes him 10x the coach that Jones is.

And then we can talk about the amazing things he has done at Penn State who was ravaged by scandal. He beat OSU and won the Big 10.

You can't win that argument.
 
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#216
#216
MWAVolfan said:
Tennessee had more wins than Clemson in the last 30 years. Tennessee's fan base is way larger and has way higher expectations. I wasn't comparing the last 4 years. I was comparing Dabo's first 4 to Butch's first 4 and there is not really a comparison there. I stand firmly by my statement that what Dabo has done at Clemson is a hell of a lot harder to do than it would have been at Tennessee.
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Incorrect - Clemson actually has 1 more win :crazy:

Both programs sit at about 67% win rate over the past 30 years.

I mistakenly looked at the past 40 when initially drawing this up, which doesn't make Clemson look light years better...but they are a bit better because of Danny Ford's early years.
 
#218
#218
MWAVolfan said:
So you understand how Butch beating Vandy while at Cincy is out of context? I'm confused by your post. Are you agreeing with me?
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It's no more out of context than Butch vs Muschamp. H2H coaching records are generally a gross onversimplification.
 
#219
#219
JC61 said:
Incorrect - Clemson actually has 1 more win :crazy:

Both programs sit at about 67% win rate over the past 30 years.

I mistakenly looked at the past 40 when initially drawing this up, which doesn't make Clemson look light years better...but they are a bit better because of Danny Ford's early years.
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I started in '86, so technically 31 seasons. Tennessee has 4 more wins.

Doesn't change the argument that more is expected of Tennessee than Clemson. I'm sure a die hard Clemson fan might argue that but no one else would. It's easier to have losing seasons and take longer to build a program at Clemson. It's also harder to recruit, or at least it was when Dabo started there. The tide has turned because we have had 2 crazy bad hires in a row. But there is way more pressure to win in the SEC and way more is expected there. All of history matters because people include all of history in the schools winning tradition. There really isn't a comparison there.
 
#220
#220
MWAVolfan said:
My original statement was that Franklin was more successful in his 3 years at Vandy than Butch in his first 3 at Tennessee. Including beating Butch at Tennessee. And that's after Franklin inherited a program coming off of 2 seasons of 2-10 football and a whole hell of a lot less talent.

That was my comparison. That is what makes him 10x the coach that Jones is.

And then we can talk about the amazing things he has done at Penn State who was ravaged by scandal. He beat OSU and won the Big 10.

You can't win that argument.
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No you're original argument was that Franklin > Butch x10. You didn't qualify it. Now you are backing up and trying to qualify it after the fact. I do believe JF is a better coach than Butch, but the fact remains that Butch beat him at Cincy.. and that has to plays into your analysis.
 
#221
#221
JFreak said:
It's no more out of context than Butch vs Muschamp. H2H coaching records are generally a gross onversimplification.
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Butch vs Muschamp is way more in context though. Are you saying Butch has been more successful in spite of never beating him? That's clearly debatable. Show me where Butch went 11-2 and won the east?
 
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#222
#222
JFreak said:
No you're original argument was that Franklin > Butch x10. You didn't qualify it. Now you are backing up and trying to qualify it after the fact. I do believe JF is a better coach than Butch, but the fact remains that Butch beat him at Cincy.. and that has to plays into your analysis.
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No. I stated exactly what I said in previous posts in this thread. Go back and read them.

Franklin is better and it's not even close for all the reasons I laid out.
 
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#223
#223
volfannbama said:
Please keep perspective. Ive have said over and over that CBJ deserves another year, maybe two based on what he has done. and yeah, its easy to overlook the first two years due to the state of the program. But it is fair to look at it in terms of setting a trend of what CBJ is capable of.

Yeah, Florida was a good win due to the way it happened. But a very strong argument can be made we should have beaten Florida for the last 3 years. Beating a mediocre UGA team two years in a row, signature wins...? Okay. VT is a good win signature win ? No not given the talent level and them having a new coach.

A good coach overachieves somewhere, CBJ has not shown that throughout a season. I get that you have lowered the expectations of the program to the point were beating losing to a bad Florida team for two years in a row, turns a win into a signature win. That's okay if you chose to view it that way. I don't.

My view on the first season, we all knew it was going to be bad. However, if CBJ were a good coach we beat Vandy and overachieve, go 6-6 to a bowl game. But we didn't...fast forward 4 years and 4 top tier recruiting classes, we still haven't developed enough talent to beat a bad Vandy team.
But this gets away from the original point that if Tennessee were in the ACC they would win 10 games every year, and nothing indicates that is true.
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Lost me at Florida the last three. Three years ago we had little talent bc of dools. Two years ago we were even with them and it was close as it should have been. He won this year. He is 1-1 for me bc I'm not counting the first two against him. He shouldn't have lost to the cocks and Vandy. That's what we are mad about but everyone gets upset. Peyton with a much better team lost to Memphis. We didn't want fumler's head.
 
#224
#224
MWAVolfan said:
Butch vs Muschamp is way more in context though. Are you saying Butch has been more successful in spite of never beating him? That's clearly debatable. Show me where Butch went 11-2 and won the east?
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Muschamp had more talented teams in 2013-2014. That's why it's out of context. And keep in mind that coaches coach and players play.. don't put so much weight into H2H coaching records.
 
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#225
#225
JFreak said:
Muschamp had more talented teams in 2013-2014. That's why it's out of context. And keep in mind that coaches coach and players play.. don't put so much weight into H2H coaching records.
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I wasnt putting so much into H2H though. That's not my original argument. My argument was that Franklin did more with less at Vandy than Butch at Tennessee. And Franklin continues to do more at a school that also fell on equally hard times if not harder than Tennessee did. My argument is that Franklin is a better coach. Then someone tried to derail my argument by bringing up Butch at Cincy. That's not my argument. Different poster.
 
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