Chris Kyle: American hero or

#555
#555
agent|orange said:
It's honestly difficult to say. Kyle's interviews were very erratic. He'd say he supported the killing of unarmed people retrieving a body and then turn around and say the ROE saying they had to be armed was justified.

He had PTSD even if he didn't admit it so this makes a lot of his comments very difficult to discern truth from fiction.

My comments on him shooting unarmed did admittedly go off into the realm of "hypothetical" which is noted when I first started talking about it but didn't reiterate, which I should have.
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Fair enough
 
#557
#557
hog88 said:
Still defecting I see.

But I'll answer this one if you'll clarify yours. Yes for some it is.
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Okay, I'm not deflecting. I thought that I answered them. Yes we do have and have had leaders that ultimately decide to murder people. Secondly, sure before they invade they tell us that they will fix our bridges and roads. Which ironically do need to be fixed.

To follow up with my thinking. Why is it that we find it so easy to call these people terrorists and blame them for resisting foreign invaders on their soil. When our brave and courageous troops were sent there IMO for reasons other than to topple a murderous dictator and restore "democracy." That is my opinion of course. Is Iraq better off now that we invaded?

War is hell and I believe many have said that we should send the politicans to fight in their wars. If so, I do not believe we would have ever sent our young to die there. Chris kyle would still be alive and thousands of other young men and women.
 
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#558
#558
#VFL__ said:
Okay, I'm not deflecting. I thought that I answered them. Yes we do have and have had leaders that ultimately decide to murder people. Secondly, sure before they invade they tell us that they will fix our bridges and roads. Which ironically do need to be fixed.

To follow up with my thinking. Why is it that we find it so easy to call these people terrorists and blame them for resisting foreign invaders on their soil. When our brave and courageous troops were sent there IMO for reasons other than to topple a murderous dictator and restore "democracy." That is my opinion of course. Is Iraq better off now that we invaded?

War is hell and I believe many have said that we should send the politicans to fight in their wars. If so, I do not believe we would have ever sent our young to die there. Chris kyle would still be alive and thousands of other young men and women.
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Ok, I'll answer your question.

If we were invaded today with our Republic as it is now, I would take up arms and do what was necessary to repel the invaders.

If we had a despotic dictator such as Saddam Hussein, I would probably already be in a rebel group and welcome the invaders.
 
#559
#559
hog88 said:
Ok, I'll answer your question.

If we were invaded today with our Republic as it is now, I would take up arms and do what was necessary to repel the invaders.

If we had a despotic dictator such as Saddam Hussein, I would probably already be in a rebel group and welcome the invaders.
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They wouldn't be invading to free us from our dictator. That's the whole problem.
 
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#560
#560
#VFL__ said:
They wouldn't be invading to free us from our dictator. That's the whole problem.
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Ok, a new wrinkle. What was the purpose of the invasion? Are they taking out our dictator and establishing free elections or just replacing one tyrant with another?
 
#561
#561
hog88 said:
Ok, I'll answer your question.

If we were invaded today with our Republic as it is now, I would take up arms and do what was necessary to repel the invaders.

If we had a despotic dictator such as Saddam Hussein, I would probably already be in a rebel group and welcome the invaders.
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What if the invaders had a decent component that thought all Americans are the same and this ended up with your daughter being killed.

I mean, it's not the occupiers job to parse her from a combatant that was rumored to dress like a woman.
 
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#562
#562
agent|orange said:
What if the invaders had a decent component that thought all Americans are the same and this ended up with your daughter being killed.

I mean, it's not the occupiers job to parse her from a combatant that was rumored to dress like a woman.
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If, ifs and buts were candy and nuts.

Sad that you think so little of the American Soldier.
 
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#563
#563
hog88 said:
Ok, a new wrinkle. What was the purpose of the invasion? Are they taking out our dictator and establishing free elections or just replacing one tyrant with another?
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Command and conquer. It's about expanding your sphere of control.

Like I said, if Dick Chaney would have been on the first plane to Iraq. The war would have never happened. We could have just gone after the real terrorists that attacked our country.
 
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#564
#564
#VFL__ said:
Command and conquer. It's about expanding your sphere of control.

Like I said, if Dick Chaney would have been on the first plane to Iraq. The war would have never happened. We could have just gone after the real terrorists that attacked our country.
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Completely irrelevant to your question, or are you admitting that your question was BS?

BTW invading Iraq was dumb. Just my personal opinion.
 
#566
#566
hog88 said:
If, ifs and buts were candy and nuts.

Sad that you think so little of the American Soldier.
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So you're fine keeping up a purely hypothetical scenario equating the US invasion of Iraq to the Chinese invasion of the US up to the point where you're caught in a rabbit hole. Then it's just "this is a stupid scenario, I don't want to play this imaginary game anymore because I'll out myself as a sociopath or a hypocrite".

So you do the typical and just make a thinly veiled comment alluding that I'm likely some liberal commie pinko that hates America. And you probably think you've just checkmated and sit back smugly as you look to your airborne patch. As a patriotic tear glistens on your cheek as you say "**** yeah, murica"
 
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#569
#569
hog88 said:
Completely irrelevant to your question, or are you admitting that your question was BS?

BTW invading Iraq was dumb. Just my personal opinion.
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My question was BS? My question was asked to put in perspective exactly what we did in Iraq. That we are killing some "terrorists" but for the most part our troops are killing people that are fighting back against invaders. It's very complex, thats my point. Chris kyle served his country and saved some of our troops lives no doubt. He would have done it in any theater that was asked of him I bet. The point is, he and many that serve have no choice but to live or die. Don't put our troops into a situation based on some BS and then justify shooting people because they are terrorists.

That movie will inspire rural american men, like chris kyle, to join and to continue dying for something that should not be happening. That's my point, that's why I asked the question.
 
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#570
#570
#VFL__ said:
My question was BS? My question was asked to put in perspective exactly what we did in Iraq. That we are killing some "terrorists" but for the most part our troops are killing people that are fighting back against invaders. It's very complex, thats my point. Chris kyle served his country and saved some of our troops lives no doubt. He would have done it in any theather that was asked of him I bet. The point is, he and many that serve have no choice but to live or die. Don't put our troops into a situation based on some BS and then justify shooting people because they are terrorists.
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I buy most of what you are saying....which I think is a problem that has little to do with Chris Kyle. That is why I don't get the hate for him.
 
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#571
#571
agent|orange said:
So you're fine keeping up a purely hypothetical scenario equating the US invasion of Iraq to the Chinese invasion of the US up to the point where you're caught in a rabbit hole. Then it's just "this is a stupid scenario, I don't want to play this imaginary game anymore because I'll out myself as a sociopath or a hypocrite".

So you do the typical and just make a thinly veiled comment alluding that I'm likely some liberal commie pinko that hates America. And you probably think you've just checkmated and sit back smugly as you look to your airborne patch. As a patriotic tear glistens on your cheek as you say "**** yeah, murica"
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You got me pegged, I just broke out the brasso and giving the wings a good polishing.

I'll play along.

So a good portion of the invaders think we're all bad and kill my daughter for dressing like a woman, right? Shooting unarmed women is within their ROE?
Do I have all of that correct? I'll assume I do even though ya'll will probably next say, well what if the Martians land.

I would as someone taking care of my family get to know as best I could the ROE that the invaders are operating under. Then I'd make sure my family didn't make themselves a target. But hey, mistakes happen and let's say my daughter was killed. If I couldn't take vengeance on the individual who made the mistake, which I probably couldn't, I'd take out on a random one.
 
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#572
#572
jp1 said:
I buy most of what you are saying....which I think is a problem that has little to do with Chris Kyle. That is why I don't get the hate for him.
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Becuase people are dumb and like to complain about everything.

The guy gave his life to our country and did a damn good job it sounds like. It has to do with Kyle because he could have been sniping kim Jung who cares from a mile away instead of people in Iraq.
 
#573
#573
hog88 said:
You got me pegged, I just broke out the brasso and giving the wings a good polishing.

I'll play along.

So a good portion of the invaders think we're all bad and kill my daughter for dressing like a woman, right? Shooting unarmed women is within their ROE?
Do I have all of that correct? I'll assume I do even though ya'll will probably next say, well what if the Martians land.

I would as someone taking care of my family get to know as best I could the ROE that the invaders are operating under. Then I'd make sure my family didn't make themselves a target. But hey, mistakes happen and let's say my daughter was killed. If I couldn't take vengeance on the individual who made the mistake, which I probably couldn't, I'd take out on a random one.
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That's a decent component of the insurgency in a nutshell.

Of course, that's simplifying things and not addressing the beehive of Shia/Sunni issues that enflamed Iraq and had little to nothing to do with the US going in there. That was an inevitability.
 
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#574
#574
jp1 said:
Sure sign of being wrong is when you continue to avoid the question. Thats fine. Carry on.
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It's actually a sure sign of avoiding the question, but not a sure sign of being wrong.

Of course, you probably also believe that refusing to allow weapons inspectors into your country is a sure sign of harboring weapons of mass destruction, or refusing to allow police officers to search your vehicle is a sure sign of carrying contraband.
 
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#575
#575
jp1 said:
I buy most of what you are saying....which I think is a problem that has little to do with Chris Kyle. That is why I don't get the hate for him.
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From guys that know a hell of a lot more about the SOF community... he's seen as a caustic person and a braggart. Not to mention a liar. He broke a cardinal rule amongst SOF guys and that is simply talking about what he did and how they operate... and profited from it.

Regardless, he's a complex guy behind the facade of a simple redneck persona. He denied having PTSD but a lot of his comments and his contradictory (even within the same interview) comments shed light on his internal struggle between decisions he made that he likely has kept to himself.

In the end he's a morally conflicted person that was thrust into a very difficult position. I respect that. He did his job and got a lot of Marines home. I respect that. He then devoted his time to helping out other vets with PTSD. I really respect that.

That, however, doesn't alleviate him from criticism.
 
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