Chris Kyle: American hero or

#129
#129
It's in this thread. The modern rhetoric is that snipers have targets, but often they are put out to guard patrols, or other moving units. Kyle basically has no remorse in admitting that he killed anyone he considered suspect and as TRUT blatantly put it, considered all of age males to be suspect.

If just one of some of his post Iraq tales are true, then he's an even worse human being than I thought.
 
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#130
#130
And for the record, Kyle obviously did a lot of good protecting patrols and what not. That's not to say everything he did was good though. And that's what troubles the innocent bystanders in the countries we go to fight. They see us as just as bad as the radicals because in many ways they don't see us acting differently.
 
#131
#131
volfanbill said:
And for the record, Kyle obviously did a lot of good protecting patrols and what not. That's not to say everything he did was good though. And that's what troubles the innocent bystanders in the countries we go to fight. They see us as just as bad as the radicals because in many ways they don't see us acting differently.
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Can be said about everyone.
 
#133
#133
MercyPercy said:
I'm sure this will make a good country song, but it doesn't address anything about our contentions with your feelings on killing innocents. Are you suggesting that since they killed a bunch of American innocents, you don't care if we kill their innocents? Where does it end? When does it stop? For every innocent we kill we've probably inspired two Muslims to radicalize. You can't destroy an ideal. Is your personal desire for revenge worth it in the face of a doomed from the start strategy?
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back on topic
how many of Kyle's 150+ kills were innocent

anyone can answer this
 
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#134
#134
n_huffhines said:
Can we first agree that there is no way we are eradicating radical, Islamic terrorism with our current strategy?
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I'll agree with you on that. Unfortunately I don't think having symposiums and etc. that was suggested by Volprof will work either. I'm not advocating extermination, but tend to believe that's the only thing that will work.
 
#135
#135
volfanbill said:
And for the record, Kyle obviously did a lot of good protecting patrols and what not. That's not to say everything he did was good though. And that's what troubles the innocent bystanders in the countries we go to fight. They see us as just as bad as the radicals because in many ways they don't see us acting differently.
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Acting differently? I haven't heard that US personnel had begun using tactics such as kidnapping, rape and absolute torture of innocents in any situation to have intel and/or access to the enemy.
 
#137
#137
ETV said:
Acting differently? I haven't heard that US personnel had begun using tactics such as kidnapping, rape and absolute torture of innocents in any situation to have intel and/or access to the enemy.
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That's well and good, but when innocent Iraqis and Afghans see us killing innocent Iraqis and Afghans, go ahead and feel free to tell those Iraqis and Afghans how different we are.

But there are plenty of stories with pictorial and video evidence to show abuse and unwarranted torture of US Soldiers to foreigners.
 
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#138
#138
vol_in_ar said:
back on topic
how many of Kyle's 150+ kills were innocent

anyone can answer this
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I have no idea. I was responding to a specific post that wasn't about Kyle. If I had to guess, though, going by what people here are saying about viewing any male 15-55 as a threat, it was probably more than a few.
 
#139
#139
Obsessed said:
Please.... Tell me.....

I have no back ground in the military.

Snipers don't have targets or objectives? May be I have played call of duty too much.
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Depends on the mission and scope.

Targets and objectives are more in line with conventional military where the target is a clearly identifiable and targetable enemy. Afghanistan/Iraq? Not so much.

AFAIK most snipers were just higher-level designated marksmen. They were spotters and support elements that had overwatch for a separate group.
 
#140
#140
MercyPercy said:
I have no idea. I was responding to a specific post that wasn't about Kyle. If I had to guess, though, going by what people here are saying about viewing any male 15-55 as a threat, it was probably more than a few.
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I don't know that you could ever determine the number. It's a he said she said argument with an answer probably somewhere in the middle. But, as the movie famously states, he gets to answer for every shot that he took.
 
#141
#141
MercyPercy said:
I have no idea. I was responding to a specific post that wasn't about Kyle. If I had to guess, though, going by what people here are saying about viewing any male 15-55 as a threat, it was probably more than a few.
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no one on here knows what went down over there
what he saw and his spotter saw, the situation at the time threat level or anything before he squeezed the trigger, and to lump him into killing innocent civilians, is bull****, just because folks want to push an agenda

would be interesting for 7th, to jump in, as he's probably as close as we will get to someone on VN, that could have had any of the same experiences
 
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#142
#142
vol_in_ar said:
no one on here knows what went down over there
what he saw and his spotter saw, the situation at the time threat level or anything before he squeezed the trigger, and to lump him into killing innocent civilians, is bull****, just because folks want to push an agenda

would be interesting for 7th, to jump in, as he's probably as close as we will get to someone on VN, that could have had any of the same experiences
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I think it's clear that some of us just don't participate in the hero worship of soldiers or cops simply because they run the risk of getting shot at. I respect what they do and I do understand that in war you have to make quick, tough decisions. But I don't believe he is impervious to criticism because of his job, I don't think anyone is.
 
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#143
#143
MercyPercy said:
I think it's clear that some of us simply just don't participate in the hero worship of soldiers or cops simply because they run the risk of getting shot at. I respect what they do and I do understand that in war you have to make quick, tough decisions. But I don't believe he is impervious to criticism because of his job, I don't think anyone is.
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Criticism is okay.

Calling him a war criminal or a mass murderer is over the line.
 
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#145
#145
Grand Vol said:
Criticism is okay.

Calling him a war criminal or a mass murderer is over the line.
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I personally don't know if he is or not. I haven't read his book and all the other material out there about him. I've mostly read about him lying a whole lot, which isn't as egregious as indiscriminate killing.
 
#146
#146
MercyPercy said:
I personally don't know if he is or not. I haven't read his book and all the other material out there about him. I've mostly read about him lying a whole lot, which isn't as egregious as indiscriminate killing.
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People like Colonel Paul Tibbetts could be construed as a mass murderer as well. And let's face it, Kyle has far less to answer for.

Point being that it's easy for the author and others to claim that what Kyle did was mass murder. And even as distasteful as some of the things he might have done likely were, he very likely saved lives. Just like the bombing of Hiroshima likely saved a lot of lives. Military members will always have those who claim their actions were unjust. But the most important question to ask is whether his actions saved lives.

This isn't directed at you in particular MP. Just my take on the whole deal.
 
#147
#147
I can't disagree with that. However, it's also really easy to blindly assume he's a great American hero, with no wrongdoing. As I said about the kill totals, his true life's worth probably lies somewhere in the middle
 
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#148
#148
Most of us here that support Chris Kyle's actions and his merits are not blind to the fact that no one is perfect. To associate him with a mass murderer was just beyond comprehension.
 
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#149
#149
There is a huge difference between:

" I shot those hajis because I don't like them or their religion."

-and-

" I was assigned to watch and protect boots on the ground. I killed a lot of people. Some were probably innocent and wrongly profiled by me in a quick-reaction situation where I made mistakes. I'm not above reproach and I regret the death of anyone wrongly in my crosshairs."

Kyle, from what I've seen, is between those 2. He undoubtedly killed innocents. If he was bragging about that in his book, yes, that is murder. Especially because of his training. I haven't read his book and I have no intention to. I'm just relaying across the standard ROE in the sandbox and his reputation among fellow special forces guys that have read his book.

The movie previews seem like over-the-top Hollywood hero sh1t to me. I'll gladly not partake in that.
 
#150
#150
agent|orange said:
There is a huge difference between:

" I shot those hajis because I don't like them or their religion."

-and-

" I was assigned to watch and protect boots on the ground. I killed a lot of people. Some were probably innocent and wrongly profiled by me in a quick-reaction situation where I made mistakes. I'm not above reproach and I regret the death of anyone wrongly in my crosshairs."

Kyle, from what I've seen, is between those 2. He undoubtedly killed innocents. If he was bragging about that in his book, yes, that is murder. Especially because of his training. I haven't read his book and I have no intention to. I'm just relaying across the standard ROE in the sandbox and his reputation among fellow special forces guys that have read his book.

The movie previews seem like over-the-top Hollywood hero sh1t to me. I'll gladly not partake in that.
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I've read the book and at no time in the book did he claim to kill innocents, brag about it or state any male 15-55 was fair game.
 
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