CFN asks: Is mediocrity the new TN?

[JC61]

I'd take it over what Jones has done... you?

You're comparing losing to Bama in the NC game to losing to say... a 4-8 UF team coached by Muschamp?

to your first retort - in a vacuum...yes. I still want to see if Jones has it in him. I think he does, he's just got to get out of his own way...if he can.

as to #2 - no, but I would compare it to losing to a 2-10 Maryland team.

It does appear Muschamp has his number. But I will say this....that 4-8 UF team had a run of bad luck w/ key injuries that year. Their D was still top 10. And no, I don't think our VOLS were more talented that year.

 

[JC61]

So... you are saying he was a guy with a pedigree thought to be an up and comer who inherited a bad situation and proved that he wasn't up to the task... and left the next guy with limited talent?

Sounds pretty much like Dooley. He didn't handle it well at all... but Dooley inherited a situation about as bad as what he handed Jones. The roster was thin and had no talent in some groups. He had no returning QB's. Simms transferred in and he signed Bray after Kiffin got his commitment.

Give Jones max credit for at least getting the UT roster healthier... but is that really enough?

I don't Shula was on par w/ Dooley, and don't necessarily think he handed Saban a $h!t samich...he coached them to 10 wins...a baffoon doesn't do that.

I'm not a UA fan...so someone with better knowledge or the will to do the research will have to give you a better roster answer.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

He's won his Div and Conf, now a NT in spite of it all...beating Saban, somewhat miraculously on Watson's talent, but nonetheless beating UA.

If you can say this and you have one intellectually honest bone in your body then you have to acknowledge that without Dobbs, Butch Jones would not be our head coach today. Coaches use the players they bring in.

 

[KBVol]

Yet, as the article states, his teams had (and still have) a knack for under performing / choaking...hence the "Clemsoning" tag. I think this is where some folks may see the similarities, which...are there.

The ACC wasn't doing too well when he took over, but he did capitalize. Being on the staff for 5 1/2 years may have had something to do with it. It does appear he's "grown" into a better coach the last 2.

He's had some signature wins....as well as some signature losses; to a 2-10 Maryland team, a 7-6 SCAR squad and quite a few mediocre teams they should have beaten...as well as peer teams that were choked away.

I think it's beyond fair to say that your assertion that Dabo and Clemson "still have a knack for underperforming" is 100% wrong. Maybe you're not aware that in the last 2 seasons they're 28-2, have played in the last two National Title games vs the best team/program in the country (Alabama) both times, narrowly losing once and narrowly winning once. Clemson is the reigning college football National Championship.....I feel somewhat comfortable qualifies as not having "a knack for underperforming".

 

[jakez4ut]

Dabo is not an exact comparison, too many variables to say one = the other.


but there are perceptions of the two and their respective programs that are similar, relative to the same point in each career.

If Butch is here in 5 years and has anything resembling of the same success, then great, good for him.... and us.

just figured i'd bump this. Dabo and Butch are not directl comparable for a lot of reasons.

but relative to the same points in their careers, there were similar perceptions of the two, and their respective programs.

Dabo has since gone on to do great things.

we wait and see if Butch can out acheive his past precedents. until or unless that happens, that's where the comparison dies.

 

[KBVol]

Yet, as the article states, his teams had (and still have) a knack for under performing / choaking...hence the "Clemsoning" tag. I think this is where some folks may see the similarities, which...are there.

The ACC wasn't doing too well when he took over, but he did capitalize. Being on the staff for 5 1/2 years may have had something to do with it. It does appear he's "grown" into a better coach the last 2.

He's had some signature wins....as well as some signature losses; to a 2-10 Maryland team, a 7-6 SCAR squad and quite a few mediocre teams they should have beaten...as well as peer teams that were choked away.

Dabo lost to that bad 2-10 Maryland team in 2009, his first full season as Clemson's head coach. If he'd lost to that 2-10 team last year or in his 4th full season while significantly underperforming, then your point would be valid (btw, he went 11-2 and finished #10 in the country in 2012).

Another way of saying it is nobody is pointing back to a 2013 loss to Vandy and criticizing Jones for it (even though I thought he should've won that game). No, he's gotten criticized for two really bad losses last year to sCar and Vandy, in 4th season here, when he fell well short of expectations despite being a prohibitive favorite to win the East Division.....and he doesn't have a Florida State in his division he's competing with to get that done like Clemson does.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

God I wish people would stop trying to justify Butch by bringing in Dabo. Dabo is in a whole other league as a coach and we have a mediocre one. Why cant some poeple just accept that?

 

[Enki_Amenra]

We just lost all of our top skill players. The last 2 recruiting classes slipped. UGA and UF are improving and will probably both be favorites when we play them. BAMA is still on the schedule. Muschamp has Jones' number. Yeah. I guess we've got 'em right where we want 'em.

We did not lose all of our top skill players. We lost a few. The players who were sitting behind those who left are very good, better than what Dooley, Kiffin, and even Fulmer were reloading with and better than the majority of the SEC.

Maybe the recruiting slipped compared to the top 5 classes, but 14th and 17th consensus classes are good. Including those classes, we have one of the most talented returning rosters in all of college football.

Your have an extremely weak argument for how bad Tennessee and Butch is/will be.

 

[sjt18]

to your first retort - in a vacuum...yes. I still want to see if Jones has it in him. I think he does, he's just got to get out of his own way...if he can.

But why would you expect after 4 years that he can? How long do you keep saying "next year" he'll get it?

as to #2 - no, but I would compare it to losing to a 2-10 Maryland team.

That was Swinney's first full year as HC... so to use the defenses thrown up here... not his players, had to change the culture, system wasn't implemented, bad luck, key players didn't buy in, former S&C coach was a louse, it was Dooley's fault, too slow, etc, etc,.

But the fact remains that DS has several good wins at Clemson and has made the program nationally relevant. He won the ACC in his third full year. Jones has failed to win the East at a historic low point for the division.... EVERYONE has been bad for the last two years.

It does appear Muschamp has his number. But I will say this....that 4-8 UF team had a run of bad luck w/ key injuries that year. Their D was still top 10. And no, I don't think our VOLS were more talented that year.

Oh... maybe Georgia Southern was though.....

 

[terrypedigo]

http://collegefootballnews.com/2017/preview-2017-this-might-be-what-tennessee-is


SIAP - thought it was interesting analysis of our program.

Yes indeed we are a average football program as a fan of 49 years didn't think i would live long enough to say that we hire average people for top jobs, just look around in most sports we got average or below average coaches, we just hired a average AD and then you got a coach that says we are back after 2 8 win seasons, this year we will be lucky to win 8 games and if we do the hype will begin for the 18 season then some lame excuse when we win 8 games this football program will win 7 to 9 games the next 3 or 4 years just good enough to give the fans hope but deep down we the fans know we can't beat the elite teams week in week out some on here will think just taking a shot at coach Jones but i am not he is a good person but a average coach i am just telling the truth about our sports programs.:thud:

 

[08Vol]

But why would you expect after 4 years that he can? How long do you keep saying "next year" he'll get it?

That was Swinney's first full year as HC... so to use the defenses thrown up here... not his players, had to change the culture, system wasn't implemented, bad luck, key players didn't buy in, former S&C coach was a louse, it was Dooley's fault, too slow, etc, etc,.

But the fact remains that DS has several good wins at Clemson and has made the program nationally relevant. He won the ACC in his third full year. Jones has failed to win the East at a historic low point for the division.... EVERYONE has been bad for the last two years.


Oh... maybe Georgia Southern was though.....

If we played UF at the end of 2013 then we would have won too. Their team had more starters injured than we did last year. Ignoring this fact shows what kind of fan you really are

 

[HuntlandVolinColo]

It's always nice to read the Team motivational articles. It helps them focus on proving the doubters wrong!

At the end of the season, Team 121 can wipe their arses with articles like this!!!

 

[JC61]

But why would you expect after 4 years that he can? How long do you keep saying "next year" he'll get it?

That was Swinney's first full year as HC... so to use the defenses thrown up here... not his players, had to change the culture, system wasn't implemented, bad luck, key players didn't buy in, former S&C coach was a louse, it was Dooley's fault, too slow, etc, etc,.

But the fact remains that DS has several good wins at Clemson and has made the program nationally relevant. He won the ACC in his third full year. Jones has failed to win the East at a historic low point for the division.... EVERYONE has been bad for the last two years.


Oh... maybe Georgia Southern was though.....

Look man, I'm not a sunshine pumper nor a butch appologist. I am an admitted optimist and have seen enough bright spots....that others admitedly don't.

The fact remains, Butch lost to that "horrid" UF team in his 2nd year....albeit one that had a top 10 D. Dabo was the OC and AHC at Clemson before taking over mid season....so, he sorta had a thumbprint on that team...which Jones didn't when he steped in. He lost to a much worse UM squad in a relatively similiar time span.

GSU was an anomoly....they happen. Like the last guy said...had we played them later in the year, based on their attrition...it could have been a different game.

I get it...you have no faith in CBJ. I'm willing to let it play out for one or two more years based on his 2nd and 3rd years...which I do think were over achievements...based on the experience of the talent available.

you and others tout Freeze, Mullens, Herman and various other bright and shining stars....yet, they also lose to some pretty pitiful teams....and yet, you can't seem to muster any semblance of support for UT's coach.

 

[JC61]

Dabo lost to that bad 2-10 Maryland team in 2009, his first full season as Clemson's head coach. If he'd lost to that 2-10 team last year or in his 4th full season while significantly underperforming, then your point would be valid (btw, he went 11-2 and finished #10 in the country in 2012).

Another way of saying it is nobody is pointing back to a 2013 loss to Vandy and criticizing Jones for it (even though I thought he should've won that game). No, he's gotten criticized for two really bad losses last year to sCar and Vandy, in 4th season here, when he fell well short of expectations despite being a prohibitive favorite to win the East Division.....and he doesn't have a Florida State in his division he's competing with to get that done like Clemson does.

yes....I think many are going back to the 13 loss to Vandy. I have my own opinions on that game, but it was one UT should have one....as well as a few others.

Dabo may have been in his first full year....but he was OC and AHC of that team before taking over...so he had a thumbprint on the squad and scheme.

Last year sucked...I agree and blame Jones for not having his team as focused as the previous 2 seasons...but not for in game coaching. Shouldn't have lost to SCAR...they werent too good, but I'm not so sure about Vandy....our guys should have won...yes! But Vandy lost virtually every game outside of GT by 7 or less...and beat UGA as well as Ole Miss....they weren't exactly hot garbage.

When he loses to a 2-10 team....I'll be happy to revisit this debate.

 

[TrueOrange]

What is Pete Fiutak's VN identity? Which Jones bashing NegaVol is he?

I doubt he has one. Though to be fair, he was also all over bashing Lane Kiffin (and the attitude he'd carried / type of attention he'd drawn that offseason) following the 2009 loss to Florida.

 

[Orange_Vol1321]

Another quote:



Ouch!

Found your expert journalist while he was writing your story.

 

[TNnative]

Off-season click bait.

Exactly. Interesting analysis? More like random conclusions that have been made by 100 other journalists. Any idiot could have wrote it, and seeing it's from USA Today, that is probably the case. I have read more fascinating food ingredient labels. If this guy has ever drove by ATC, much less used a press pass there, I would be shocked. Go sue yourself, OP.

 

[KBVol]

yes....I think many are going back to the 13 loss to Vandy. I have my own opinions on that game, but it was one UT should have one....as well as a few others.

Dabo may have been in his first full year....but he was OC and AHC of that team before taking over...so he had a thumbprint on the squad and scheme.

Last year sucked...I agree and blame Jones for not having his team as focused as the previous 2 seasons...but not for in game coaching. Shouldn't have lost to SCAR...they werent too good, but I'm not so sure about Vandy....our guys should have won...yes! But Vandy lost virtually every game outside of GT by 7 or less...and beat UGA as well as Ole Miss....they weren't exactly hot garbage.

When he loses to a 2-10 team....I'll be happy to revisit this debate.

Yes, let's do......when Jones ever wins a national, conference or division title....or when he gets to a 10 win season. Or even when Dabo becomes the first Clemson coach to lose twice to the worst ACC team in conference history for the first time in 65 years or so.

 

[Neyland Law Vol]

Exactly. Interesting analysis? More like random conclusions that have been made by 100 other journalists. Any idiot could have wrote it, and seeing it's from USA Today, that is probably the case. I have read more fascinating food ingredient labels. If this guy has ever drove by ATC, much less used a press pass there, I would be shocked. Go sue yourself, OP.

eace2: Look, I get it, the article may be harsh, but the program hasn't done anything in over a decade. Thus, I think it is a point worth raising - Has TN's football program become ok with slightly better than average?

There are subtle compliments in the article - acknowledging how great our program is historically, and how the author has been expecting the program to bounce back for years. It comes across as "hey I believed in you, you let me down, so now I will assume you are ok with being average until you prove otherwise." I think that is a fair assessment for a neutral sports analyst.

 

[jakez4ut]

eace2: Look, I get it, the article may be harsh, but the program hasn't done anything in over a decade. Thus, I think it is a point worth raising - Has TN's football program become ok with slightly better than average?

There are subtle compliments in the article - acknowledging how great our program is historically, and how the author has been expecting the program to bounce back for years. It comes across as "hey I believed in you, you let me down, so now I will assume you are ok with being average until you prove otherwise." I think that is a fair assessment for a neutral sports analyst.

yep, and it's a sentiment shared by many that bought in the last two years. the credit we've built up the last two years is that of a program that's "almost good enough".

so those outside the program, feel a little jilted, and are in show me mode, and not willing to go out on a limb...

 

[TNnative]

eace2: Look, I get it, the article may be harsh, but the program hasn't done anything in over a decade. Thus, I think it is a point worth raising - Has TN's football program become ok with slightly better than average?

There are subtle compliments in the article - acknowledging how great our program is historically, and how the author has been expecting the program to bounce back for years. It comes across as "hey I believed in you, you let me down, so now I will assume you are ok with being average until you prove otherwise." I think that is a fair assessment for a neutral sports analyst.

Harsh? Try boring. As I said, he said nothing....absolutely nothing that has shown the slightest flicker of new light on the program. It's like he wrote it after reading other people's articles. I reinforce my doubt he has been anywhere near the team. It almost seems USA Today hired this guy to make people like John Adams seem readable. Shrewd? Try again.

Reading that article reminded me of listening to any teenage girl who just broke up with her first boyfriend; just a bunch of incoherent rambling that if you ever heard it once, you have heard it a thousand times. It's that bad! Sorry if I have no patience for that kind of drivel, but I have a niece who is a big Taylor Swift fan. And that BS really lowers your tolerance.

If you are going to start a discussion about an article, find one that actually give a unique slant or says something we haven't already heard over and over. This was a complete waste of time. It's like disco, nobody wants to dance to it anymore, and they quit making leisure suits. Remember Tyler from Atlanta? That Georgia fan who dialed a radio call in show and started crying for Richt to be fired? That is who I was reminded of when I read this article, but maybe only half as drunk.

Trust me, this article is not shocking evidence that is going to win a big case. That sound you may hear
that resembles a busted chain saw? That is the snoring of the jury. It put the anal in analysis. I dare say my objection is sustained.

 

[IknoxvolsI]

You wouldn't post this if we were winning championships.

I thought we were? Did they take back our champions of life? (Blue/Font)

 

[sjt18]

If we played UF at the end of 2013 then we would have won too. Their team had more starters injured than we did last year. Ignoring this fact shows what kind of fan you really are

Yes. One that wants to win and doesn't make excuses for losses that should have been wins.

FWIW, the combined records of the teams UF beat that year was 17-31... skewed by mighty Toledo at 7-5. Their record later in the season had more to do with playing MUCH better teams than injuries.... and that's why Muschamp was fired. They beat Toledo then lost to Miami who finished 9-4. After beating 3-9 Arkansas... they played and lost to 7 straight opponents who finished with winning records.


Notably, the reasons UF fired Muschamp are similar to the complaints about Jones. After Muschamp was fired... they've won the East twice with teams that weren't very talented by UF standards.

 

[sjt18]

I get it...you have no faith in CBJ. I'm willing to let it play out for one or two more years based on his 2nd and 3rd years...which I do think were over achievements...based on the experience of the talent available.

you and others tout Freeze, Mullens, Herman and various other bright and shining stars....yet, they also lose to some pretty pitiful teams....and yet, you can't seem to muster any semblance of support for UT's coach.

The consistent reality in CFB is that if you aren't climbing... you are sinking. Almost no one treads water. Let Jones have two more years without producing real results... then the roster could be as lacking in talented depth as it was when Fulmer was fired at the start of this whole mess. Fulmer's firing in retrospect came a couple of years too late. The roster had declined to a pretty desperate level. If that happens again... how does that help anyone?

I have talked about Freeze in the past. He produced early success after inheriting very similar circumstances. He achieved that success in the West and even has wins over Bama. There seem to be distractions and some possible NCAA trouble. But on the field, he's been a very good coach.

I don't recall using Mullen or Herman. I do feel sorry for Mullen. I think he's a better coach than he'll ever be able to show at MSU.

 

[sjt18]

but I'm not so sure about Vandy....our guys should have won...yes! But Vandy lost virtually every game outside of GT by 7 or less...and beat UGA as well as Ole Miss....they weren't exactly hot garbage.

.

You just made a decent case for firing Jones and hiring Mason.... nah.

Yeah, they were pretty much hot garbage on O. They had one real offensive threat and if you stopped him... they basically had nothing else... until UT made their QB look like Peyton. Shurmur has one career game over 300 years... the 416 he had against UT. Vandy scored 20 ppg vs the SEC (13th in the SEC just ahead of mighty USCe)... and scored 45 vs UT.

Any way you slice it or dice it... Vandy was hot garbage and UT should have beaten them by 30 points.

And by year 4... the HC OWNS team depth.