CBJ Coaching Ability

#26
#26
KBVol said:
Here's one....he's 0-10 at Tennessee when trailing at halftime.
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What are your stats when leading at halftime?!?

Being 0-10 has something to do with limited talent the last few years. He is also 12-1 when leading at halftime.

Are you trying to say that he is a poor coach, because we do not come back and win games in which we are losing at halftime? There is only one score I am concerned with and that is the one at the final whistle.
 
#27
#27
I think he can be overly conservative and plays not to lose.

A big example for me was Vandy last year. I can't tell if it was vanilla play calling by bajakian or he was being led that way by Butch.

Forgot to mention the Florida game. We played not to lose until we gave up the lead. We started throwing down field and would have won the game if it wasn't for the bad throw by worley
 
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#28
#28
Sudden Impact said:
The call that CBJ challenged more than likely the Onside Kick that we recovered and still believe the Zebras made the wrong call.

His GA game management was good two years ago. As well as this past years comeback at USCe

Being a good coach equals what. He is not yet great. But he is on track. APR scores is coaching, He has continued to gain the necessary players and improve the teams performance. Time will tell this year is the start of it.
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They blew the offsides call IMO. They didn't blow us recovering the ball a yard short, which is what he challenged. There was no way he was winning that challenge and there was no way we were going to have a chance at winning by losing that TO. Should've pocketed the TO and played defense, and hope for the best.
 
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#29
#29
His worst play call last year was those 2 TDs he had riding the pine against FL. Dobbs looked better than Worley in 2013. Bump the red shirt...you play to win.
 
#30
#30
PowerT83 said:
Things I *****ed about.

- Starting & staying with Nate Peterman in the swamp 2 yrs ago.
- Time management vs UGA the past two years
- 2013 we had 4 Nfl o-lineman, couldn't figure out a way to utilize their strengths, failed in too many short yard situations in which we had more talent in the trenches.
- Being in field goal range vs Florida last year and running a double reverse that loses 15 yards. 3 points would of been big.
-2013 vs Vanderbilt
- 3rd & forever was converted too much against the defense.

I'm no football genius, but I don't like being in the shotgun the whole game. It's not so bad with Dobbs, but his system wasn't suitable at all for Worley and if I hadn't seen Lane Kiffin simplify his system to help Jon Crompton look %100 better I would just chalk it up to Worley simply being bad "which he was", but there's a part of me that thinks there was something they could've done to make him play better.

Every Vol fan seems to be an expert at what plays the team needs to be calling, I've been critical of every coach we've had; hated Fulmer ball with the two runs up the gut and then a bubble screen, Chavis' mustang package, Dooley's lack of football basics, Sunseris' unbelievably terrible 3-4 defense.

My hope is Butch' s offense is like that at Oregon and Mizzou, not that it's so fast or uptempo, rather that after a few years UT can plug anyone in and play and not miss a beat because they know the offense so well.
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I think the bolded was Ole Miss. But Florida was the game where we were threatening from the 36, and Medley had been dead on all game, and Butch punted. That was a tough one to deal with.
 
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#31
#31
SamRebel35 said:
Coaching is done during practice. Game management is done during games. I think Butch Jones is excellent during practices and getting teams prepared. His game management and game plan is decent but not great imo. Should have been more assertive against Florida last year on offense. Needs to keep his finger on the pulse more of the flow of the game so that he knows when to pull the plug on a failing game plan or improvise when necessary.

Overall, I think he is a great recruiter, great coach, and decent Gane manager. Overall B+
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Good post. I'm fully behind him until proven otherwise. He is an outstanding recruiter. I think he's a good coach. I think hes a good game prepper (and will probably be even better with Debord). Jury out on in-game manager.
 
#32
#32
I've seen things I like and things I don't like. We will have a fair idea after this season has finished.
 
#34
#34
DaddyChad said:
In game every coach makes boneheaded decisions. Even Meyer and Saban made a few questionable decisions last year in their game. Talent level magnifies or minimizes the impact of these decisions. Jones has had some questionable calls and decisions BUT I think he gets it right a lot more often than he gets it wrong. As the talent has gotten closer we have pulled closer to the pack even beating teams like Carolina and Spurrier. We just need to take the next step and this will be the year where you can begin to judge the Butch Jones era.
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Amen! the issue or challenge is rebuilding a program comes with these criticism, every coach that has been praised have received equal criticism. You run 60+ plays a game and expect perfection? If, if and buts were candy and nuts, what a Merry Christmas it would be, no one is perfect, CBJ is a good coach, until he wins those games, the praises will come.

Go Vols!
 
#35
#35
JMO

I think that he has underutilized and underperformed the available talent in his first two years. Particularly, I don't think UT should have lost to Vandy in year one. I don't honestly think UT should have lost to Mizzou in year 2 or UF in either year. In each of those games, Jones seemed to be coaching "not to lose" rather than being aggressive.

My HOPE is that what we've seen for the first two years was an investment. He has shown some stubbornness in not adapting his system to the players he had... and particularly year one. He HAS culled some players with the talent to help the team going back to V Dallas. Again, my HOPE is that those players plus some he recruited left because they just couldn't adapt to his standards and "program". If a standard is high enough and a program disciplined enough, some people just cannot fit... that's true in any organization. That's why not every physically capable guy who starts SEAL school becomes one.

Specifically on the subject of game day coaching... he's just lost more of the tight, winnable games than he's won. He's beaten Spurrier twice which speaks well but IMO the only reason it was close last year is that Jones tried to "manage the game" rather than going for the jugular. I have a bigger problem with the application of that philosophy than I do any particular playcalling or scheme.


FWIW, I think Jones is VERY good at game week prep. I personally do not think that recruiting is the greatest strength Jones has shown. After watching Fulmer for years and seeing guys NOT get good much less great development.... Jones is night and day different. IMO, he is an ELITE developer of talent with one caveat.... we haven't seen that on the OL yet. That group has lagged behind.
 
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#36
#36
First obvious weakness Jones has is recruiting and developing offensive linemen. He's playing 2 freshmen on the D-line, try a couple freshmen on the O-line.
 
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#37
#37
Monday morning QBing is easy. Maybe he can take more calculated risks when the team has more talent and experience than he could in the past. You can also argue that we would have Dobbs for 3 more years instead of 2 if he could have redshirted. It has been reported that Dobb's parents wanted him redshirted so he could go to grad school on a scholly.
 
#38
#38
Just so long as CBJ doesn't have Pete Carroll as a mentor for play calling, I'll be happy.
 
#39
#39
No one notices the game management when it's right. It's only noticed when it's wrong.
 
#40
#40
K-town Vol Fan said:
51-3 when leading at halftime all time.
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So what do we make of our 2 stats here? If he gets ahead he can keep it on the rails and finish the job....but if he doesn't, he can't make the appropriate adjustments and he'll lose every time?

Btw, my stat was his record only while at Tennessee, while your stat included his record at previous jobs...

At Tennessee....

*10-1 when leading at halftime overall (10 wins are vs Austin Peay, West. Ky, So Alabama, SCar, Ky, Utah St, Arky St, UTC, SCar, Ky)

*4-1 when leading an SEC team at the half (Scar & Ky in 2013; SCar, Ky and Florida in 2014)

*1-2 when tied at halftime (Vandy in 2013; Vandy and Mizzou in 2014)

Finally, at Tennessee, when trailing or tied at Halftime, Butch is 1-12 at Tennessee.
 
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#41
#41
GLDunlap said:
CBJ is 0-12 when tied or losing at halftime but he is 12-1 when leading at halftime.
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Actually 1-12 when tied or losing at half. Was tied with Vandy last year and won the game.

Also, I only counted 11 games that he's led at Tennessee, has gone 9-1....wins vs APSU, WKU, SoAlabama, SCar and Ky in 2013.......wins vs Utah St, Arky St, UTC, SCar and Ky in 2013. Lost to Fla in 2014 after leading 9-0 at half
 
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#44
#44
Here's a standard of excellence I'm considering. Probably already exists, and I heard of it but have forgotten that I did. So apologies to whoever I'm plagiarizing, heh.

Call it the two-thirds rule of coaching.

No coach is gonna win them all. He's simply not gonna win all the games, all the time (anyone ever hear of a coach with 100% lifetime record? Not even Larry Kehres or Knute Rockne could do that).

And no coach (head coach or OC/DC) is gonna win the play-calling battle within a game every play. You win some calls, you lose some. When you win, you stop the other guy ... or you win a first down or touchdown. When you lose, the opposite happens. Both sides advance to some degree in the game. Calling out a coach for "one or two or a handful" of bad play calls in a game is kinda silly. Making bad clock management decisions, sure...but not play calls.

So here's the two-thirds rule. If a coach playing a peer can get two-thirds of the calls to go his way, he's doing very well. If he beats his peer opponent 51% of the time, he's succeeding, of course, but if he wins 2 out of every 3 tries, he's doing really well.

Same in the wider perspective. A coach who beats peer competition two-thirds of the time is a very good coach. Over the long haul, you can't expect much more than that. Important to note: that doesn't mean a lifetime 67% win record...we're talking purely about games against peer competition. In other words, cupcakes and monsters don't count.

This year, Tennessee has four cupcakes (some would say five, but not quite ready to demote Kentucky yet; give it one more year). Vandy, NTexas, BGSU, and WCarolina don't count for the two-thirds rule. Neither does Bama, which (for now at least) counts as a monster; 10+ point favorites are monsters.

So there are seven peer games in 2015. Apply the two-thirds rule, and if Butch is a very good coach, we'll win 4.67 of them. Round it up to 5.

Add those five required wins to the 4 cupcakes, and Tennessee's bar to meet in 2015 is 9 wins. Butch gets to 9-3, and he's a very good coach.

And we can put that silliness about him having to be near-flawless during the games to bed. Two-thirds rule.

What do you think?
 
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#45
#45
It's definitely true that you can only be as good and aggressive as the talent on your team allows you to be. I think Butch now has the playmakers to where he can play the aggressive style of ball that he wants to play. There's definitely been a few head-scratchers with the decision to punt against Florida, as well as a handful of others, but with the lack of talent he had to work with it's understandable that he would be more conservative in certain situations. Like some of you have said, if you over-analyze and dissect enough you're going to find a few mistakes with any coach. Nobody can argue that he's pulled a complete 180 with the culture and recruiting aspects of the program. The effort is there and the players have obviously bought in to what CBJ is selling. I think after this year we'll have a lot better idea of Butch's actual ability to coach a game. If the players are all-in and are giving it 100% in practice and in games then it makes me think we're definitely headed in the right direction. Only time will tell if Butch's off the field management can translate into making good decisions come gameday and W's, IMHO.
 
#46
#46
Every coach is going to have questionable calls, I mean hell even the good ones. Look at saban in the iron bowl. Sending his locker on a 56 yard field goal, returned for a TD and lost the game.
 
#47
#47
KBVol said:
So what do we make of our 2 stats here? If he gets ahead he can keep it on the rails and finish the job....but if he doesn't, he can't make the appropriate adjustments and he'll lose every time?

Btw, my stat was his record only while at Tennessee, while your stat included his record at previous jobs...

At Tennessee....

*10-1 when leading at halftime overall (10 wins are vs Austin Peay, West. Ky, So Alabama, SCar, Ky, Utah St, Arky St, UTC, SCar, Ky)

*4-1 when leading an SEC team at the half (Scar & Ky in 2013; SCar, Ky and Florida in 2014)

*1-2 when tied at halftime (Vandy in 2013; Vandy and Mizzou in 2014)

Finally, at Tennessee, when trailing or tied at Halftime, Butch is 1-12 at Tennessee.
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That's the thing the numbers are just numbers unless explained. Without looking I could've guessed that he's good when leading against bad teams and bad when losing against good teams. I bet most of the 1-12 are against good teams. That's another thing to take into consideration: is he winning games he's supposed to win? Etc.
 
#48
#48
KBVol said:
Actually 1-12 when tied or losing at half. Was tied with Vandy last year and won the game.

Also, I only counted 11 games that he's led at Tennessee, has gone 9-1....wins vs APSU, WKU, SoAlabama, SCar and Ky in 2013.......wins vs Utah St, Arky St, UTC, SCar and Ky in 2013. Lost to Fla in 2014 after leading 9-0 at half
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Actually we were up on Vandy 17-10 at halftime so 0-12 is right I think. Not that it really matters.
 
#50
#50
DL916 said:
I would love to see all of the specifics of Butch's bad coaching. Not saying they don't exist I'd just like someone to point to something specific ie: play, situation etc.

Against Florida I'm sure he had some bad moves but was it more than average by a good coach in a game?

Also how much blame do you place on Worley throwing a pick in the red-zone that took potential 3pts off the board and the win?

So the question isn't does he make in game mistakes, everyone does, but does he make more than the good coaches? That I don't know.
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The only game I thought CBJ mismanaged the clock was the Mizzou game last year. TN is in the red-zone with 3 time outs, down by 2 scores. They burn a time out because they can't get on the same page. They could have spiked the ball or ran another play quickly. After the TO, Dobbs threw a TD to Croom (I believe). TN then attempts, and doesn't get the call for the Onside Kick. If TN hadn't burned the TO to get into the endzone, they still could have gotten the ball back, with a 3-and-out. They would have had to drive the field and get the 2-point conversion, so it would have been a long shot. But Jone's TO on their last possession took away any chance they did have.

The '13 Vanderbilt game and '14 Florida games, I thought CBJ just played too conservatively to not lose instead of to win. Now that they have the playmakers and depth across the board, I believe he won't coach 'scared' anymore.
 
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