Butch says our D-line has "always" lined up a yard back. Is immediately proven wrong

['Boro-vol]

And, by the way, let's throw tomatoes at the troops, too (you know, Guarantano, Jumper, etc.) because they looked sullen in formation or weren't as fast as we wanted them to be.

I'm not going to address the rest of it again, because I already have clearly and succinctly, and because the metaphor of Butch Jones to a General ais patently absurd outside of the haircut. It also doesn't seem to be resonating with you....so likely it doesn't matter.

But I will address the point about the players again. The players deserve our admiration and loyalty simply because of their desire to be here, and the sacrifices they make to do so. A student-athletes life is difficult, even at this level. I know...I have a son that is a Div. III football player. They lead a different life than other students, with rewards...yes, but with a lot of sacrifices that other students never know. I don't criticize players much outside of "life-choices" they may make. What happens on the field is the coaches responsibility. It is the coach that recruited them for a particular job, coached them to perform a task, and put them in the position on gameday to succeed or fail. Outside of just not trying, it's not the players fault if he is not successful. Choices were made well in advance that set that course. Players deserve our admiration, and whatever definition of loyalty fits your personal agenda.

 

[BigZiti09]

It is so weird that we always says things everyone knows is not true.

What is not true about it?

Someone just posted a picture from a year ago of us doing it?

 

[Orange_Crush]

How dare any of you question Coach Jones!

That was a quality post that added much to the discussion. Thank you for your thoughtful and appropriate contribution. Everyone now has a better grasp of the subject, as well as a better grasp of your intellect. :hi:

 

[volfannbama]

So in your version of "loyalty", we throw tomatoes at our generals throughout the war if they don't do things the way we'd like them to...don't use the right words in speeches, don't win every battle. [Patton didn't win every battle; Ike didn't; MacArthur and Nimitz and Halsey, none of them did either]

If a military leader breaks the law, or acts immorally or unethically, every American should stand up and demand he be fired.

But if he's in the middle of the fight, doing it "the right way," and has more success than not, we Americans ought to have his back. Ought to understand things don't always go our way. Even ought to understand that the general isn't paid for his public speaking prowess, so he might say something that makes you scratch your head from time to time.

As long as he's doing it the right way and generally winning the war, we ought to back him (or her). Right? That's the citizen-to-military element of loyalty.

And then our loyalty to the troops is like our loyalty to the players. Add that on top of our loyalty to our leaders.

But in your view, that general or admiral is making the big bucks, he's a mercenary because he could always go work for General Dynamics or Pratt & Whitney instead. So we owe him no loyalty. We're free to throw tomatoes at him all day long, for any little mistake he makes. Right?

And, by the way, let's throw tomatoes at the troops, too (you know, Guarantano, Jumper, etc.) because they looked sullen in formation or weren't as fast as we wanted them to be.

That's the state of "loyalty" in big parts of this fan forum today.

That's what it would look like translated to our military.

You still favor your version of "loyalty"?

In nearly every war we have been in large amounts of Americans protested and spoke out against it. Do you not remember Gen. David "Be"traeus?

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I'm not going to address the rest of it again, because I already have clearly and succinctly, and because the metaphor of Butch Jones to a General ais patently absurd outside of the haircut. It also doesn't seem to be resonating with you....so likely it doesn't matter.

But I will address the point about the players again. The players deserve our admiration and loyalty simply because of their desire to be here, and the sacrifices they make to do so. A student-athletes life is difficult, even at this level. I know...I have a son that is a Div. III football player. They lead a different life than other students, with rewards...yes, but with a lot of sacrifices that other students never know. I don't criticize players much outside of "life-choices" they may make. What happens on the field is the coaches responsibility. It is the coach that recruited them for a particular job, coached them to perform a task, and put them in the position on gameday to succeed or fail. Outside of just not trying, it's not the players fault if he is not successful. Choices were made well in advance that set that course. Players deserve our admiration, and whatever definition of loyalty fits your personal agenda.

Outside of the bolded part, we finally found something we can agree on. Now if only all those folks insulting our lads in a variety of threads currently active could agree too, this would be a better, more loyal place.

On the bolded part? No. It's a team sport. The entire team, coaches and players alike, share the glory of victory and the weight of defeat. You can't cull out just one part of the Team and say it bears all the responsibility for the game. It's the Team.

And I think if you asked him, your son would insist that's the right way to look at it. He wants his share of the weight of success or failure. It's a big part of why he's out there, I bet.

But don't believe me, ask him. Learn from your son.

 

[GetYouSomeofThat]

C'mon Butch... Reminds me of my students at school. I'm like, "Why did you do that?" They say,"It wasn't me!" Ummm... I just literally watched you do it.

Barnett got called offsides multiple times last year for lining up in the neutral zone. Pretty sure they weren't a yard off the los.

The DE in the pic showing us lined up off the ball also nearly offsides.

 

[UT-Rex]

I think the average Tennessee fan--or at least the average fan who takes the time to find and take part in message boards, or to have season tickets to the games--understands about 80% of every football game. I include myself in this crowd.

The thing is, that other 20%. The coaches and brighter, more experienced players know that 20% that we don't. They see nuance and art in the game that washes right past most of us unnoticed.

But that won't stop us from saying Bob Shoop is playing checkers or tiddlywinks when he describes a hard-fought game as a "chess match" between him and the opposing coach.

We don't even know what we don't know, most of us. Only a few of us are somewhat aware it's out there.

I think by "average" you might mean working hard to continue to grow and learn / not there yet (and regarding this lining up off of LOS, here's what Coach Jones said he and his staff/team have recognized after 2 full games this season: "that's something we continue to talk about and grow and develop").

 

[Boca Vol]

That was a quality post that added much to the discussion. Thank you for your thoughtful and appropriate contribution. Everyone now has a better grasp of the subject, as well as a better grasp of your intellect. :hi:

Oh yeah....as if throwing 'maters at Generals is thought provoking.

I stand by my original statement. :hi:

 

[VFL-82-JP]

In nearly every war we have been in large amounts of Americans protested and spoke out against it. Do you not remember Gen. David "Be"traeus?

Do you not remember that he was hugely, widely supported by the American people the entire time he was leading our troops in Iraq, and then at CENTCOM?

Do you not remember that the American people (rightfully) turned against him later, after he retired from uniform to take charge of the CIA, when it became known that he violated the law by revealing classified information to a person not cleared for it?

Both those reactions by the American people were right and good. Loyalty, and then a demand for accountability when illegal and unethical behavior was revealed.

 

[DaddyChad]

All of this is just one monumental circle jerk until the Florida game is over. Then the verdict will be in on Jones and Shoop.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I think by "average" you might mean working hard to continue to grow and learn / not there yet (and regarding this lining up off of LOS, here's what Coach Jones said he and his staff/team have recognized after 2 full games this season: "that's something we continue to talk about and grow and develop").

Yeah, Rex, I get what you're saying.

But I'm not sure that most of us will ever "grow and learn" to pick up that other 20%. Most of us will probably sit somewhere around the 80% mark the rest of our lives.

And that's fine. You can hugely enjoy football at a wide variety of knowledge levels. My wife enjoys an occasional game, and she still has to ask what the names of the various positions are.

I just don't think the average American football fan has the time or expert training available to him/her to get the other 20%. It's hard work to know the game as well as our coaches and top players know it. Years of study, guided by other experts. You and I will never have that time. or those mentors.

So we enjoy the 80% we can see. :good!:

 

[Orange_Crush]

Oh yeah....as if throwing 'maters at Generals is thought provoking.

I stand by my original statement. :hi:

There's something to be said for working hard to try to get one's viewpoint across, including such illustrations. In my view, it's much better, and intellectually superior to, just popping in to insult anyone who disagrees with you by misrepresenting their argument with a mere broad-brush sweep.

But again... That's just me.

 

['Boro-vol]

Outside of the bolded part, we finally found something we can agree on. Now if only all those folks insulting our lads in a variety of threads currently active could agree too, this would be a better, more loyal place.

On the bolded part? No. It's a team sport. The entire team, coaches and players alike, share the glory of victory and the weight of defeat. You can't cull out just one part of the Team and say it bears all the responsibility for the game. It's the Team.

And I think if you asked him, your son would insist that's the right way to look at it. He wants his share of the weight of success or failure. It's a big part of why he's out there, I bet.

But don't believe me, ask him. Learn from your son.

We'll certainly we do agree in part.

My son would tell you the opposite, because he's witnessed exactly what I've described. It's a coaches responsibility to utilize talent and manpower in a way that makes the team successful. Good coaches make changes when a individual proves he cannot be successful in a given role. We, my son and I, have seen teams suffer because of the choices a coach makes with personnel. The player has to carry his weight, yes, but if he is not suited for a role the only person to blame is the coach. That was my point, you know it.

This is going nowhere other than to hijack the thread. You and I will not agree, largely because you're wrong.

Again, sincerely, thanks for your service.

 

[jbr82]

We won't be lined up a yard off the ball playing UF this Saturday. Our fans hate Butch so much that they are willing to believe anything said pertaining to him,; not only believe it, but run with it. When the media or other schools mock our coach, many of our fan base join in on social media.

You say you support the team, but not the coach. How can you really do one and not the other. The team plays for Butch. Period. Like it or not. They would stand up for him any day and do when necessary. They'll play hard and fight for him just like they fought to come back numerous games last season and against GT this season. I've never seen a fan base so critical and hateful to their coach as our fans. Every word is criticized. Texas A&M has a Trash Can on the side line also. But,most don't know that. It's a reason why the media piles on, and it's because they realize the can rouse the fans for click bait. Rucker s one of the worst. But, what does our band of idiots know. Did you think it might be the kids who want the can on the sideline and not Butch? Butch may not be the greatest, but he's ours. Some might not think you are the greatest or your wives or GF's are the sexiest, but their yours right?

The program is and will always be bigger than Butch. Many fans....and it's growing. ..don't believe CBJ can compete for championships. By your logic...did you support Dooley? Should have win or lose since he lead the Vols. Maybe just maybe he surprises us this yr. But ultimately....the real problem is above CBJ. Many don't support our mediocre administration....doesn't mean we have to be in order to be a fanatic of UT football.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

We'll certainly we do agree in part.

My son would tell you the opposite, because he's witnessed exactly what I've described. It's a coaches responsibility to utilize talent and manpower in a way that makes the team successful. Good coaches make changes when a individual proves he cannot be successful in a given role. We, my son and I, have seen teams suffer because of the choices a coach makes with personnel. The player has to carry his weight, yes, but if he is not suited for a role the only person to blame is the coach. That was my point, you know it.

This is going nowhere other than to hijack the thread. You and I will not agree, largely because you're wrong.

Again, sincerely, thanks for your service.

Sincerely, I appreciate it.

Heh, from my perspective, this will go nowhere and we will not reach broad agreement because you've got it wrong. But then,we would each think we were ourselves right; otherwise, we wouldn't be debating the points.



p.s. One note for the record: I didn't start the whole 'comparing Vols to military' thing; I only said I like the way the Army defines loyalty, and shared the definition. You took it from there into the football-military analogy (which I agree, is of limited applicability).

 

[UT-Rex]

Yeah, Rex, I get what you're saying.

But I'm not sure that most of us will ever "grow and learn" to pick up that other 20%. Most of us will probably sit somewhere around the 80% mark the rest of our lives.

And that's fine. You can hugely enjoy football at a wide variety of knowledge levels. My wife enjoys an occasional game, and she still has to ask what the names of the various positions are.

I just don't think the average American football fan has the time or expert training available to him/her to get the other 20%. It's hard work to know the game as well as our coaches and top players know it. Years of study, guided by other experts. You and I will never have that time. or those mentors.

So we enjoy the 80% we can see. :good!:

Well, I'm actually talking about Butch saying "that's something we continue to talk about and grow and develop" (about the question of Tenn's lining up off of LOS, he's saying this -- either he's still trying to figure out when to do it (just like an average fan would be trying to figure it out), or, he's saying something else).

Why do you think he's still trying to "grow and develop" how far off the LOS to line up, against ISU?

 

[wildorange]

All of this lining up questions and talk will be put to bed this weekend, one way or the other. And it won't have to nothing with anything but how well we play defense. The first game was a totally different animal, last game was not a real test. Come back and talk after the game Saturday, that will be the true barometer. All this talk either way to this point means absolutely nothing, no matter side of the spectrum you are on. GO BIG ORANGE!!!!!

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Well, I'm actually talking about Butch saying "that's something we continue to talk about and grow and develop" (about the question of Tenn's lining up off of LOS, he's saying this -- either he's still trying to figure out when to do it (just like an average fan would be trying to figure it out), or, he's saying something else).

Why do you think he's still trying to "grow and develop" how far off the LOS to line up, against ISU?

Oh, I don't think he meant that comment to be applied to how we line up.

The question was about how we lined up. The answer was about something else entirely.

Think about how odd his response was...wasn't actually an answer at all. He basically chuckled about how much attention the phenomenon has gotten, then changed subjects to communication and teamwork on defense. His "growth and development" were about those communication skills being developed while we played against two quirky offenses.

So Butch was actively avoiding answering the question about the way we lined up.

One way of interpreting that is that he thinks it's not important, not worth spending much time on.

Another way is that he does think it's important, and is trying to avoid saying anything before we play Florida Saturday.

Is Butch hiding something from the Gators? Or does he think it's a non-issue? We won't know until we see the lads play Saturday.

 

[VolFanInHawaii]

Could be worse though.

yeah, but those pants! don't look at the scoreboard, just look at those pants! they were sent to Italian tailors to be dyed!

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Kind of a post script to the above:

Communications and public affairs experts educate and train the leaders for whom they work--like head football coaches. One of the things they teach, religiously, is to go into every interview and press conference with their key messages already figured out.

They further teach the leaders to look for opportunities to "turn" or "pivot" questions in the direction they want to go. One doesn't have to wait for the reporters to ask about "X" or "Y"...take any question that's somewhere close to the topic, and "turn" it so that you land on one of your key messages.

Butch has been trained this way. I know that for a fact, because I've seen him do this (sometimes more adroitly than others) many times over the years he's been our head coach.

I think that's what we're seeing, when sometimes his answer seems a bit off kilter to the question. That's him "pivoting" toward one of his key messages.

I think that is, in part, what we saw with the alignment question and answer.

They asked about alignment and spacing. He wanted to talk about communication and development. So he talked about communication and development after a "pivot" sentence.

 

[PowerSweep]

This is a guy who couldn't figure out if he wanted 2nd and 9 or 1st and 15 against GT and could clearly be seen on tv asking someone upstairs what he should do

 

[Section N Row 5]

"We've always lined up a yard off the ball" could mean at least a couple of things.

It could mean "every snap we've ever taken has been a yard off the ball".

Or it could mean "we've always had that in our playbook, and have used it at times since we got here."

Obviously the legion of the miserable interpreted it one way and have crucified our coach for it since it was a convenient way to do what they woke up to do today anyway. And obviously, the ATM pic shows that Butch probably meant it as option 2.

I agree, just find it funny no one complained about it last year, but now Butch was immediately proven wrong

I may not like it but I'm not the coach. That does not mean he lied.

 

[smokey90]

But don't worry, if a coaching change is needed (which I hope not), the AD we have now would never make the moves/decisions/hires that have gotten UT into this mess...oh wait never mind

 

[1974Vol]

"We've always lined up a yard off the ball" could mean at least a couple of things.

It could mean "every snap we've ever taken has been a yard off the ball".

Or it could mean "we've always had that in our playbook, and have used it at times since we got here."

Obviously the legion of the miserable interpreted it one way and have crucified our coach for it since it was a convenient way to do what they woke up to do today anyway. And obviously, the ATM pic shows that Butch probably meant it as option 2.

So what you're saying is if asked are you going to keep running the 4-3 defense and Butch said we have always run the 4-3 then a bunch of people on here would be posting pictures of the Vols in a 4-2-5 for most of last year and calling him a liar? Sounds about right. smh

 

[Ten_Titans]

This is a guy who couldn't figure out if he wanted 2nd and 9 or 1st and 15 against GT and could clearly be seen on tv asking someone upstairs what he should do

I think it's reasonable to ask the guy calling plays on defense what he wants. But OK.