Butch says it takes 6 to 7 years to build a program in the SEC

[MikeVol44]

Butch Jones: It takes six or seven years in the SEC to build a program

An excerpt from the article...

While we live in a world of instant gratification, Jones — just in his 3rd season in Knoxville — scaled back expectations a little and indicated that he may need an additional three years at the least to fully bring the Vols back to prominence. Jones identified weak spots right now in the program such as the offensive line, defensive line and receivers.

Well--he's right.....when you continue to lose to SEC rivals or ranked teams (OK) after taking a 2 TD lead into the 4th QTR.....:crazy:

And--it just might take longer if he doesn't finish this season strong at 8-4 with a bowl win against a quality opponent.....There's no doubt--even with all of our injuries--that we should win out with our talent.......

CBJ is playing chess with expectations in order to keep recruiting momentum......smart play--but, in the end--he gonna have to prove he can actually out-coach somebody in this league to continue his success in recruiting......:salute:

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I have seen the RS SR/JR discussion come up here and other places. Is it me or does it just not seem like you see many of them across the elite programs anymore outside injuries. Ive never really done much research on what other teams have but it seems like nowadays unless you are injured a higher amount are "recruited" over and released instead of hanging on to them for 5 years. At a quick glance, it looks like UT has 6 or 7 in their 2 deep. I don't know how that compares to Bama, LSU, and UGA types (with longer tenured coaches) it may be well low of what those teams have. It just seems like that dynamic has changed over time with younger guys getting on the field sooner.

Across the two deep on offense and defense plus the special teams, I'd speculate that the top teams have more RS upper class players contributing than true sophomores and freshman. They also have more than their share of 3 and done high draft picks, but TN will be even more competitive once the roster has more of the guys with 4 and 5 years of experience. Every team's situation is unique and TN will have to develop several rather than reload in order to have their peak roster. TN isn't a state loaded with 5 stars ready to play full time from day one. It hasn't been as easy lately to get those from other areas that are game ready to come to TN, but it has been trending up. Alabama, LSU, Georgia, and Florida don't have the same challenge as TN in the recruiting wars. Butch seems to have TN moving in the right direction. By year 6 or 7 maybe it will be easier to reload.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

OK. You've spun based on what he didn't mean... which you have no way of knowing. Tell us what he DID in fact mean if he wasn't trying to lower expectations for winning at a high level?

Others have already done that, SJT, earlier in the thread. Like Jake. Here, I'll give you a link to his post so you can go read it:

i'm listening to replay of vol calls right now....

As Jake says, it had nothing to do with expectations for any given season. Worth going back and catching up.


p.s. I didn't tell you what he didn't mean. I told you what he didn't say. Which is pretty easy to do once you hear or read what he did say.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I would love for you to factually back up his accomplishments on the field at Tennessee to counter your argument.

The fact is, TN has gone from getting curb stomped many times every year to 8 games in to 2016 without one. If you need facts, look up the 2013 contests. Two years ago TN could have lost by double digit TDs (not points, TDs) versus Oregon and 30+/- to another couple of opponents. Two years ago TN couldn't compete with Vandy. The W/L record is just one metric... that one is steadily improving.

 

[sjt18]

Others have already done that, SJT, earlier in the thread. Like Jake. Here, I'll give you a link to his post so you can go read it:



As Jake says, it had nothing to do with expectations for any given season. Worth going back and catching up.

I was actually asking you. You've been pretty staunch in your defense of Jones on this. While we disagree and joust at times, I tend to think you are a thoughtful poster.

IMO, at best, Jones misspoke.

 

[BeecherVol]

Across the two deep on offense and defense plus the special teams, I'd speculate that the top teams have more RS upper class players contributing than true sophomores and freshman. They also have more than their share of 3 and done high draft picks, but TN will be even more competitive once the roster has more of the guys with 4 and 5 years of experience. Every team's situation is unique and TN will have to develop several rather than reload in order to have their peak roster. TN isn't a state loaded with 5 stars ready to play full time from day one. It hasn't been as easy lately to get those from other areas that are game ready to come to TN, but it has been trending up. Alabama, LSU, Georgia, and Florida don't have the same challenge as TN in the recruiting wars. Butch seems to have TN moving in the right direction. By year 6 or 7 maybe it will be easier to reload.

I think you are in an era where its harder to keep kids 4 and 5 years and thats not just because of the NFL. Even UT in the shape it has been is gonna have more attrition because the next class may have 2 better players signed than the one before. Its a different animal that it used to be. Some of these kids first year is a tryout.

 

[flatiron]

Well, one, it tells current and future recruits that he basically sold Hurd, Kelly, and others a bill of goods since he "knew" that they wouldn't "help put Tennessee back where it belongs".

Two, even those kids don't want to hear about continuing to be a losing or middling team for the next 3 or 4 years. They want to believe that their coach expects to win NOW.

How many of these kids are listening to what Jones says on a Wednesday night VolCalls? Not many. Also, I'm sure potential recruits and current players put more stock in what Jones and the staff tell them personally than they do what gets said to the media/public. Personally, I think this is a case of making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I was actually asking you. You've been pretty staunch in your defense of Jones on this. While we disagree and joust at times, I tend to think you are a thoughtful poster.

IMO, at best, Jones misspoke.

I don't think Jones misspoke. I think that a writer is spinning the words to stir up the gullible TN fan base. Clicks generate more advertising dollars.

 

[Remy]

Well--he's right.....when you continue to lose to SEC rivals or ranked teams (OK) after taking a 2 TD lead into the 4th QTR.....:crazy:

And--it just might take longer if he doesn't finish this season strong at 8-4 with a bowl win against a quality opponent.....There's no doubt--even with all of our injuries--that we should win out with our talent.......

CBJ is playing chess with expectations in order to keep recruiting momentum......smart play--but, in the end--he gonna have to prove he can actually out-coach somebody in this league to continue his success in recruiting......:salute:

Think we can get Spurrier and Richt to testify they were out coached by CBJ?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I think you are in an era where its harder to keep kids 4 and 5 years and thats not just because of the NFL. Even UT in the shape it has been is gonna have more attrition because the next class may have 2 better players signed than the one before. Its a different animal that it used to be. Some of these kids first year is a tryout.

No doubt. No way Carl Pickins is redshirted in 2015. The best skill players are on the field immediately now. But the OL and DL still have many RSs. They develop in the weight room. There are more freaks these days though (Tuttle and KMc for example).

 

[Johncarter53]

Think we can get Spurrier and Richt to testify they were out coached by CBJ?

Richt gets out coached all the time.

 

[MikeVol44]

because all of the "talent" at Florida has been discussed, I thought I would list them in an effort to show why numbers don't tell the whole story.

99--you are correct--and it is one of the reasons why I am so disappointed in CBJ and crew.....not ready to abandon their bus....but an extremely disappointed VFL....

And--no matter what people are saying about Fla right now--the amount of true SEC talent the Gators have is at the LOWEST for a Florida program that I've ever seen! --and I believe McElwain took over a program that was arguably in the same predicament that Charlie Pell found in Gainesville in 1979.

I've said it before on here--McElwain should win SEC coach of the year just for his performance to this point....it's gonna be scary when he gets the talent re-stocked in Gainesville.....

CBJ and crew have absolutely NO EXCUSE for losing to the Gators these past 2 years...NONE whatsoever...except that they were flat out OUT-COACHED!

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I was actually asking you. You've been pretty staunch in your defense of Jones on this. While we disagree and joust at times, I tend to think you are a thoughtful poster.

IMO, at best, Jones misspoke.

Well, I think he could've benefited from some time to think through how his statement might be misunderstood (as proven by this thread, heh). Whether he had that time, idk. Don't know how spur of the moment it all was.

Key skill for leaders is learning how to fine-tune your message so that it's not just easy to understand, but difficult to misunderstand. Which is a whole 'nother level of communication. So yes, Butch could've shared that message more carefully. But again, given that it might have been an off-the-cuff thing, I'm not sure any reasonable person should expect him to do better.

As for the message itself, I think it makes sense. The program is a whole lot more than just rosters and Win-Loss records. It's recruiting and relationships and finances and facilities and media programs and charity work and strength-conditioning-nutrition-medical staff and relationships with a big AD office, and being one of the most visible and influential people in the entire state, and on and on and on.

So Butch has a master plan. And he updates that master plan every time he sees a new need. And his plan has a timeline associated with it. And apparently, as of this week, that timeline stretches out to the 6 or 7 year mark.

And Butch himself is a little amazed at how much goes into the job, and so he said something about it.

And we all did backflips and started food fights, because all we see are the roster and the win/loss columns on a daily basis. And so we thought that was what he was talking about.

That's what I think about his statement, SJT.

 

[sjt18]

How many of these kids are listening to what Jones says on a Wednesday night VolCalls? Not many.

I'm going to guess none. But some GA for another SEC team will listen and feed the info to their coaches who will in turn spin it into a reason not to believe in Jones.

Also, I'm sure potential recruits and current players put more stock in what Jones and the staff tell them personally than they do what gets said to the media/public. Personally, I think this is a case of making a mountain out of a molehill.

All coaches tell recruits not to listen to the media including Jones but then turn right around and emphasize what the media is saying about a rival or any faux pas like this one.

Making mountains out of mole hills is part of the art of recruiting. Do you think Pruitt's supposed attitude issues and unpopularity hasn't been used by UT and others with common recruiting targets?

 

[82_VOL_83]

I think every situation is different. i think coming from our situation when Butch arrived to get us back to what we had in the 90s, sure it might take a total of 6-7 years before we a consistently dominant. Doesn't mean we can't have a wonderful and special season before that. People forget that programs are built over time - as long as we continue forward and see improvement every step of the way I don't see why we should be upset by these comments. It means he's building for the future instead of just the immidiate success. And honostly id rather be a long burning fire then a flash in the pan. If it takes three more years to win a championship and be in the National Championship talk every year I'll take that in a heart beat. Just show me reasons to think between now and then we are headed in that direction...

Well done.

 

[ReaderVol]

I don't hate him, I hate fans who believe that in year three we aren't allowed to voice an opinion about our coach. Many of these same people defended Dooley to the death. Hate to see you join that crowd.

LOL actually some of Dooley's biggest defenders on this site are part of the Butch sucks crowd. So you're sorely mistaken.

 

[BeecherVol]

No doubt. No way Carl Pickins is redshirted in 2015. The best skill players are on the field immediately now. But the OL and DL still have many RSs. They develop in the weight room. There are more freaks these days though (Tuttle and KMc for example).

Looking at some of the rosters it appears that even more of those are seeing the 2 deep earlier than they used to as well.

 

[BeecherVol]

I'm going to guess none. But some GA for another SEC team will listen and feed the info to their coaches who will in turn spin it into a reason not to believe in Jones.



All coaches tell recruits not to listen to the media including Jones but then turn right around and emphasize what the media is saying about a rival or any faux pas like this one.

Making mountains out of mole hills is part of the art of recruiting. Do you think Pruitt's supposed attitude issues and unpopularity hasn't been used by UT and others with common recruiting targets?

Im sure every coach that is recruiting in GA right now is beating that drum pretty loud.

 

[ReaderVol]

This thread suddenly took off!

Hof is right. Butch should do all his talking on the field and on recruits couches for awhile. He's getting dangerously close to "looking for Rommel" territory in the pressers.

If he even says the word "shower" or "analytics" he's going back in the EVH bad books.

The best part about Jones comment is people like yourself care not about ccontext and you use it how it fits your agenda. LOL it really sheds a light even brighter on you and others.

 

[IPleadInsanity]

Butch Jones: It takes six or seven years in the SEC to build a program

An excerpt from the article...

While we live in a world of instant gratification, Jones — just in his 3rd season in Knoxville — scaled back expectations a little and indicated that he may need an additional three years at the least to fully bring the Vols back to prominence. Jones identified weak spots right now in the program such as the offensive line, defensive line and receivers.

I swear, Butch can do the coach speak better and longer than anyone I have ever seen. Today he said USC was a threat because they will attack us with their special teams. The only time he is close to being real is on the injury updates.

 

[MikeVol44]

Think we can get Spurrier and Richt to testify they were out coached by CBJ?

Sorry--but I haven't seen either of them get out-coached by CBJ..........I know....I know.....but don't confuse actual wins for actually out-coaching your opponent......

Sometimes you have just enough luck (2013 USCe in Knoxville)....sometimes you have players who refuse to lose (2014 USCe)....and sometimes--you're forced to do what you would never do in desperation to just survive (this year's UGA game--4th down conversions)....

Fulmer made an entire career out of it.....:salute:

Spurrier is 70 and gone....

CBJ is 2-0 against USCe...Spurrier......
CBJ is 1-2 against Richt....

And 0--fer against everyone else in the SEC except KY and Vandy.....might want to re-consider your play....

All of which demonstrates my point in my original post--failure to win out and get to 9-4 will hurt recruiting....

 

[ReaderVol]

I don't think Jones misspoke. I think that a writer is spinning the words to stir up the gullible TN fan base. Clicks generate more advertising dollars.

I never thought I'd say this but TGO you're correct.

 

[AirGator]

Serious question-- what would be enough for you all to want to keep Jones? Let's say he wins 8-10 games a year, loses to Florida two out of three times or more on average, wins the SEC once every six or seven years--basically mirrors what Richt has done at Georgia-- would that be enough for you to want to keep him? Would that be a success to you? I'm just curious.

 

[sjt18]

Well, I think he could've benefited from some time to think through how his statement might be misunderstood (as proven by this thread, heh). Whether he had that time, idk. Don't know how spur of the moment it all was.

Key skill for leaders is learning how to fine-tune your message so that it's not just easy to understand, but difficult to misunderstand. Which is a whole 'nother level of communication. So yes, Butch could've shared that message more carefully. But again, given that it might have been an off-the-cuff thing, I'm not sure any reasonable person should expect him to do better.

As for the message itself, I think it makes sense. The program is a whole lot more than just rosters and Win-Loss records. It's recruiting and relationships and finances and facilities and media programs and charity work and strength-conditioning-nutrition-medical staff and relationships with a big AD office, and being one of the most visible and influential people in the entire state, and on and on and on.

So Butch has a master plan. And he updates that master plan every time he sees a new need. And his plan has a timeline associated with it. And apparently, as of this week, that timeline stretches out to the 6 or 7 year mark.

And Butch himself is a little amazed at how much goes into the job, and so he said something about it.

And we all did backflips and started food fights, because all we see are the roster and the win/loss columns on a daily basis.

That's what I think about his statement, SJT.

OK. Good answer. Still can't agree with Jones' statement completely or the wisdom of it. But I understand your line of reasoning.

I'm also one who really doesn't buy the "you have to have a two deep made up of Jrs and Srs to win" line. I think having Sophs and even Fr playing early is good and necessary.... if you want the best recruits to come play for you.

I still think attrition is a FAR bigger issue for Jones than the age of players.

Of course we do not know what attrition will be yet for the '15 class. The '13 class has been very bad (41%). The '14 class has been better (26%) though some of the players lost were at key positions. This simply has to improve.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Looking at some of the rosters it appears that even more of those are seeing the 2 deep earlier than they used to as well.

Maybe the biggest factor is length of NFL careers. I bet that the average tenure is way down compared to the pre-PED days. Shorter NFL careers mean that there are more spots that players can jump to from the NCAA in three years...and more contracts. Also, the number of top 25, 30, 40, 50 NCAA teams never changes. The NFL has expanded and there are several hundred more jobs for professional football players.