Butch and Dobbs

[FLSTF-VOL]

Vols' Utah State Week Depth Chart
Vols' Utah State Week Depth Chart - UTSPORTS.COM - University of Tennessee Athletics
Quarterback
14 Justin Worley

12 Nathan Peterman
- OR -
11 Joshua Dobbs

You might notice that the URL is utsports.com
I would think that the “OR” means at that time they were deemed equal.
Pig if fault can be found in your arguments it is the name calling and attempting to degrade everyone with an opposing opinion. You sound a little like the CBS analyst Gary Danielson, in that in trying to backup your arguments with professing to know what the coach is thinking.

But isn't that exactly what the holder of the other side of their argument is doing?

 

[FLSTF-VOL]

It is. Im not basing all of that off what the press is allowed to see/video or what the coaches make in public comments. Jones is pretty coy behind a mic.

I don't doubt he had some rough moments in the preseason. Heck, most all of them did including Worley. Dobbs seemed to be made more public than most at that time (it may have been that they expected more out of him at that point).
I don't know that I buy, "he just flipped it on, or just got it" the week Worley goes out, and then took that on to USC.

Im just glad the position is being played at a high level for a change. No matter who is in the spot.

To each his own. I just don't see this as Jones being coy or trying to have some kind of hidden agenda. What purpose would it serve?

I think they have some, what they consider, legitimate concerns about Dobbs and are doing their best to mitigate them. What they are I have no idea. I just hope we don't find out because they could be costly. Again, just my opinion.

 

[joevol33]

Come on guys keep it going, I gotta work tonight and need the entertainment.

 

[BeecherVol]

To each his own. I just don't see this as Jones being coy or trying to have some kind of hidden agenda. What purpose would it serve?

I think they have some, what they consider, legitimate concerns about Dobbs and are doing their best to mitigate them. What they are I have no idea. I just hope we don't find out because they could be costly. Again, just my opinion.

I think in Aug they felt Worley could get them to a bowl and Dobbs hadnt just snatched the job away. At that point giving Dobbs a RS and Worley making a bowl was "having your cake and eating it too".
When Worley went down they had no choice but play him. Peterman was 5-7 (at best) and more than likely 4-8. To be honest I think we were starring at 5-7 with Worley anyway.

Im not sure what issues he would have that would more costly than the alternative but ok.

 

[VonVol]

But isn't that exactly what the holder of the other side of their argument is doing?

I've already stated that I don't have a side to be on with the qb situation. Don't really care. But I will say that at least you make decent arguments and don't resort to lie swallowing and superficial toothless hyenas arguments. It makes you seem like someone with less of an agenda and more of an opinion. Also it makes me think you might not play in your own poo. Others I'm not so sure about.

 

[sjt18]

Man, your simply hanging your hat on the idea that Dobbs was being redshirted. Your not even considering the why. Your contending that Peterman was named the backup by default.

The why? Because Worley was the starter and they wanted to preserve a year of eligibility for Dobbs rather than waste a year on mop up. They were aware that they could pull his RS if Worley got hurt... and that's exactly what they did. Almost like it was planned that way, huh?

I contend that Dobbs was being redshirted because they felt like he simply wasn't ready and needed another year. I'm sure the decision was based on the totality of how he performed overall in the spring and preseason. The very fact that they went ahead and decided to redshirt him is proof (at least in my eyes) that Peterman had outperformed him or at the very least was that far ahead. Enough so that making the decision to redshirt him was a comfortable one.

that simply doesn't hold water. His spring game performance moved him up into contention for the starting job according to some. They tried to RS him and not NP because he had one to take and NP didn't. Who plays the mop up snaps really isn't that significant after you find your starter.

The RS was about development but even more about preserving a year of eligibility. I think we will all be sorry by the time he leaves that he doesn't have another year to play.

 

[KBVol]

The why? Because Worley was the starter and they wanted to preserve a year of eligibility for Dobbs rather than waste a year on mop up. They were aware that they could pull his RS if Worley got hurt... and that's exactly what they did. Almost like it was planned that way, huh?

that simply doesn't hold water. His spring game performance moved him up into contention for the starting job according to some. They tried to RS him and not NP because he had one to take and NP didn't. Who plays the mop up snaps really isn't that significant after you find your starter.

The RS was about development but even more about preserving a year of eligibility. I think we will all be sorry by the time he leaves that he doesn't have another year to play.

I don't understand why this is difficult for people to understand. We now have objective hindsight and historical record, albeit only 3 weeks, to now know what was going on based on the decisions taken by Butch. This isnt subjective speculation. Your analysis is spot on because it's rooted in fact and what has actually happened.

 

[ebarnard]

its just a process

 

[tnvols72]

Is Petermen still #2 tonight?

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

I don't understand why this is difficult for people to understand. We now have objective hindsight and historical record, albeit only 3 weeks, to now know what was going on based on the decisions taken by Butch. This isnt subjective speculation. Your analysis is spot on because it's rooted in fact and what has actually happened.

Therein lies the problem.

Expecting all posters on VN to display the characteristics highlighted in bold. It just doesn't happen.

The whole argument is moot at this point.

In the here and now:

Dobbs is the starter.

Peterman is #2.

That's the end of the discussion IMO.

The only reason anyone cares who was 2nd team and who was 3rd team 6 months ago is to try and prove who can p%$$ the longer stream and how much Pig Face Joe can rile everyone up.

 

[FLSTF-VOL]

I don't understand why this is difficult for people to understand. We now have objective hindsight and historical record, albeit only 3 weeks, to now know what was going on based on the decisions taken by Butch. This isnt subjective speculation. Your analysis is spot on because it's rooted in fact and what has actually happened.

The thing that you do not have is someone on the staff actually affirming what you guys seem to think is fact. Its not. Plain and simple. Its nothing more than speculation and conjecture. Yes, it is subjective speculation on your part, my part and everyone else.

The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. But don't let that get in the way of you guys trying to convince people that your speculative reasoning is somehow factual.

Your statements and sjt18 are the most frustrating because you two seem to think that you know what is exactly in CBJ's head. Just because it sounds good in your head does not make it fact.

If you guys made these statements with a preceding statement such as "in my opinion" or "from my point of view" or god forbid "I can't know this for fact" it would make it much easier to digest.

Hell, you could be right or not.

 

[KBVol]

The thing that you do not have is someone on the staff actually affirming what you guys seem to think is fact. Its not. Plain and simple. Its nothing more than speculation and conjecture. Yes, it is subjective speculation on your part, my part and everyone else.

The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. But don't let that get in the way of you guys trying to convince people that your speculative reasoning is somehow factual.

Your statements and sjt18 are the most frustrating because you two seem to think that you know what is exactly in CBJ's head. Just because it sounds good in your head does not make it fact.

If you guys made these statements with a preceding statement such as "in my opinion" or "from my point of view" or god forbid "I can't know this for fact" it would make it much easier to digest.

Hell, you could be right or not.

All either of us have done is catalog what Jones has said and then what he has done. IMHO, it's very easy to connect the dots. We have the benefit now of what has actually happened. Not trying to come off as a know it all or some type of soothsayer. It just now is what it is.

 

[sjt18]

The thing that you do not have is someone on the staff actually affirming what you guys seem to think is fact. Its not. Plain and simple. Its nothing more than speculation and conjecture. Yes, it is subjective speculation on your part, my part and everyone else.

The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. But don't let that get in the way of you guys trying to convince people that your speculative reasoning is somehow factual.

Your statements and sjt18 are the most frustrating because you two seem to think that you know what is exactly in CBJ's head. Just because it sounds good in your head does not make it fact.

If you guys made these statements with a preceding statement such as "in my opinion" or "from my point of view" or god forbid "I can't know this for fact" it would make it much easier to digest.

Hell, you could be right or not.

This sophism fails because what we are arguing agrees with what the coaches have said and done. It isn't necessarily "proven" by their words but is congruent with them. What you and to a much greater extent American Pig have argued is not as agreeable to the facts... and in some cases AP has had to deny the facts.

 

[sjt18]

It is deductive reasoning. You can narrow the possible right answers by eliminating the wrong answers when they do not line up well with the facts.

 

[FLSTF-VOL]

This sophism fails because what we are arguing agrees with what the coaches have said and done. It isn't necessarily "proven" by their words but is congruent with them. What you and to a much greater extent American Pig have argued is not as agreeable to the facts... and in some cases AP has had to deny the facts.

Its your opinion that your argument agrees with what the coaches have said and done. Your taking conjecture/supposition and making facts out of them. Again, its your opinion. Its how you perceive the information available. Just like its your opinion, that my opinion is not agreeable with the facts. I just think the answer is a whole lot simpler.

Its obvious that your a smart dude. But you are no more of an expert then me or any other member here. I've said time and again that my take on all of this is simply my opinion. I just perceive the information that I see and have available to me a little differently than you.

Am I wrong? Maybe. Are you wrong? Maybe.

All I know is that Peterman was listed as #2 or 2A (depending on how you look at it) and played before Dobbs. That's a fact. The reason why is really only known to CBJ and staff.

 

[KBVol]

Its your opinion that your argument agrees with what the coaches have said and done. Your taking conjecture/supposition and making facts out of them. Again, its your opinion. Its how you perceive the information available. Just like its your opinion, that my opinion is not agreeable with the facts. I just think the answer is a whole lot simpler.

Its obvious that your a smart dude. But you are no more of an expert then me or any other member here. I've said time and again that my take on all of this is simply my opinion. I just perceive the information that I see and have available to me a little differently than you.

Am I wrong? Maybe. Are you wrong? Maybe.

All I know is that Peterman was listed as #2 or 2A (depending on how you look at it) and played before Dobbs. That's a fact. The reason why is really only known to CBJ and staff.

Some opinions can be more informed than others. For example, American Pig over and over continued to wrongfully say that there was no proof than Jones intended to redshirt Dobbs and call anyone who simply said so a liar.....after being provided evidence via articles and video of Jones saying just that.....that "if possible", or "in a perfect world" Dobbs will be redshirted. For example...

"If you’re wondering why Vols sophomore quarterback Josh Dobbs didn’t come into the game against Georgia when Justin Worley was injured, it’s because Butch Jones hopes to redshirt him."
-Zach Ragan

. @UTCoachJones says we'll see how it goes (on redshirting @josh_dobbs1) but says in perfect world Dobbs would redshirt. #Vols
-tweet by John Brice of VolQuest

So based on this information and other articles stating the same thing, this is the more informed opinion to take.....in my humble opinion.

Furthermore, after it was proclaimed by Jones that "both qbs will play" vs Alabama, BEFORE the game, and then Dobbs came in after 2 series and has taken every snap since.....thus, the more informed opinion, in my humble opinion, is to go with the one that says that Jones and Coach Jake believed that Dobbs was the better choice to lead the team to a bowl game and that Peterman clearly was not indeed the clearcut #2 qb like some have said.....otherwise he would've remained in the game vs Bama, started vs SCar, Kentucky, etc.

To say that 18, others and I are dealing/have dealt only in conjecture and supposition simply flies in the face of actual actions that have been taken by Jones at this point IMHO.

 

[American Pig]

This sophism fails because what we are arguing agrees with what the coaches have said and done. It isn't necessarily "proven" by their words but is congruent with them. What you and to a much greater extent American Pig have argued is not as agreeable to the facts... and in some cases AP has had to deny the facts.

Your dishonesty is astounding. Where have I denied facts? ANSWER with real valid examples, not another wordy response that provides no valid examples.

We have argued from the clear facts while you speculators offered nothing but speculations to ignore the clear facts:

Fact: The overwhelming consensus of those who witnessed the preseason QB competition has Peterman and Worley far ahead of Dobbs. That is undeniable fact.

Fact: Dobbs had severe accuracy problems in 2013 that resulted in a HALF SEASON PLAY OF THREE INTERCEPTIONS for EACH TOUCHDOWN ratio.

Fact: Peterman won the number two position following a vastly better performance than Dobbs in preseason.

Fact: Peterman played in the number two role all season up to and including Alabama.

Fact: Dobbs was never REDSHIRTED. It didn't happen!
That RS was never as important as your imaginary narrative required.


YOUR SPECULATION: Coaches RedShirted Dobbs because he was too valuable to play this season - rather than acknowledge the FACT that he lost to Peterman and became extraneous and a possible RS candidate-

Your speculation not only defies all facts, but doesn't even hold it's own water. Dobbs was NOT REDSHIRTED. His eligibility was torched at mere convenience. It was obviously not the major priority driving him to the #3 position.

This debate was over long ago. You have failed to provide a single demonstration that we are wrong or that you are correct to believe Dobbs beat Peterman and was the #2 all along. Your problem is with the facts and evidence.

 

[American Pig]

Some opinions can be more informed than others. For example, American Pig over and over continued to wrongfully say that there was no proof than Jones intended to redshirt Dobbs and call anyone who simply said so a liar.....after being provided evidence via articles and video of Jones saying just that.....that "if possible", or "in a perfect world" Dobbs will be redshirted. For example....

You are lying on this claim too. Your lies just pile up.

Show me where I claimed Jones did not intend to RS Dobbs? In fact I NEVER claimed any such thing.
In fact, I believe Jones likely would have been redshirted Dobbs if convenient. I argued that your RS conspiracy is NOT the reason why Dobbs was #3. You KNOW very well what I argued - and did NOT argue. You choose to lie about it hoping nobody will notice. I don't tolerate liars well.

If you guys stop lying to cover your butts, I'll stop telling the truth about your lies.

 

[YorkVol]

Your dishonesty is astounding. We have argued from the clear facts while you speculators offered nothing but speculations to ignore the clear facts:

Fact: The overwhelming consensus of those who witnessed the preseason QB competition has Peterman and Worley far ahead of Dobbs. That is undeniable fact.

Fact: Dobbs had severe accuracy problems in 2013 that resulted in a HALF SEASON PLAY OF THREE INTERCEPTIONS for EACH TOUCHDOWN ratio.

Fact: Peterman won the number two position following a vastly better performance than Dobbs in preseason.

Fact: Peterman played in the number two role all season up to and including Alabama.

Fact: Dobbs was never REDSHIRTED. It didn't happen!
That RS was never as important as your imaginary narrative required.


YOUR SPECULATION: Coaches RedShirted Dobbs because he was too valuable to play this season - rather than acknowledge the FACT that he lost to Peterman and became extraneous and a possible RS candidate-

Your speculation not only defies all facts, but doesn't even hold it's own water. Dobbs was NOT REDSHIRTED. His eligibility was torched at mere convenience. It was obviously not the major priority driving him to the #3 position.

This debate was over long ago. You have failed to provide a single demonstration that we are wrong or that you are correct to believe Dobbs beat Peterman and was the #2 all along. Your problem is with the facts and evidence.

So why is Dobbs starting now? All your "facts" don't seem to answer that question.

 

[American Pig]

So why is Dobbs starting now? All your "facts" don't seem to answer that question.

Because time is dynamic. Circumstances can change over time.

People can improve. Others don't get the necessary reps to get ready...... A full-on running QB may do better against Bama's front seven with no O-line protection than an inexperienced QB trying to find his feet.

 

[sjt18]

Your dishonesty is astounding. Where have I denied facts? ANSWER with real valid examples, not another wordy response that provides no valid examples.

Nah. If you really want that answer then you can search my posts and find any of about a dozen posts where I have demonstrated that you have denied things like Dobbs being headed for a RS or a better runner than the others.

Fact: The overwhelming consensus of those who witnessed the preseason QB competition has Peterman and Worley far ahead of Dobbs. That is undeniable fact.

Fact... you have yet to cite a post much less an overwhelming number that state that Peterman beat Dobbs out. Further and more importantly... nowhere did a coach ever say Peterman was ahead of Dobbs.

Fact: Dobbs had severe accuracy problems in 2013 that resulted in a HALF SEASON PLAY OF THREE INTERCEPTIONS for EACH TOUCHDOWN ratio.

That isn't an accuracy problem you idiot. That was a decision making problem... which is pretty common for a Fr who wasn't ready when thrown in. He completed almost 60% of his passes which is extraordinary accuracy considering how many balls the receivers dropped last year.

Peterman who you have some kind of crush on has thrown 2 INT's and has never thrown even the first TD.

Besides that... last year has virtually NOTHING to do with this year.

Fact: Peterman won the number two position following a vastly better performance than Dobbs in preseason.

Nope. At best that's an opinion... not a "fact". It is a fact that that opinion is not supported by the weight of the facts considered together.

It IS a "fact" that Peterman was named the #2 QB. But that has been explained to you many times as well.

Fact: Peterman played in the number two role all season up to and including Alabama.

Yes. As long as Worley was healthy it really didn't matter if the back up was the second best QB or not. All the back up was going to do was play mop up. When Worley got hurt, we very quickly saw who the staff considered to be their TRUE #2 QB.

Fact: Dobbs was never REDSHIRTED. It didn't happen!
That RS was never as important as your imaginary narrative required.

He wasn't red shirted because when Worley got injured Jones needed his actual #2 QB to play. Had Worley stayed healthy OR if Peterman had been a legitimate, next in line, #2 QB... Dobbs RS's.


[quoteYOUR SPECULATION: Coaches RedShirted Dobbs because he was too valuable to play this season - rather than acknowledge the FACT that he lost to Peterman and became extraneous and a possible RS candidate-[/quote] There is no proof that he lost to Peterman. None. Zero. The ONLY genuine proof we have of who UT's 2nd best QB was is who became the starter when JW got hurt.

NP already RS'd. Dobbs had not. As long as Worley was healthy... there was no reason not to RS Dobbs to save a year of eligibility. If the situation had been reversed then there would have been no reason not to RS Peterman even though he's clearly an inferior QB to Dobbs.

Your speculation not only defies all facts, but doesn't even hold it's own water. Dobbs was NOT REDSHIRTED.

How long are you going to keep up the moron act? Of course he wasn't RS'd. He was forced into playing after Worley went down... because he was UT's 2nd best QB. Your own "argument" proves what we've been saying. If Peterman had been an able replacement for JW... Dobbs would have RS'd. The coaches have said so.

His eligibility was torched at mere convenience. It was obviously not the major priority driving him to the #3 position.

No. His RS was pulled because they had no faith that the team could win behind Peterman. Live with it.

This debate was over long ago. You have failed to provide a single demonstration that we are wrong or that you are correct to believe Dobbs beat Peterman and was the #2 all along. Your problem is with the facts and evidence.

No. My problem is that I am arguing with a foundering fool.

 

[Orangeslice13]

You're both fools for continuing the argument.

 

[American Pig]

You're both fools for continuing the argument.

There is no argument. The debate ended a week ago when they failed to defeat anything I argued, while I destroyed their phony narrative with a mountain of evidence.
I'm just holding these boneheads accountable for their endless lies as they try to slip the noose.

 

[American Pig]

.

Once again, you lied about me denying facts, then failed to demonstrate a single valid example when challenged. As predicted, you offered a wordy response without an answer to distract from the FACT you can't provide an answer.

I've never encountered someone who blabbers so much while answering nothing.

Facts matter son. Your problem is with the facts and evidence. Popular opinion can't save you when you must lie, evade, distract, dance and spin and say anything to avoid holding yourself accountable to the facts and evidence.
The other beaten Peterman haters will stroke you for encouragement as you choke and flounder trying to defend your foolish myth against a mountain of evidence, but it's hollow. They know you've hit the wall. They see you can't answer the same questions they failed to answer.
But hey, don't feel too bad. Somebody had to lose. Losing may be just your style.

 

[BigTCountry]

Fact: The overwhelming consensus of those who witnessed the preseason QB competition has Peterman and Worley far ahead of Dobbs. That is undeniable fact..

Undeniable fact is that you said all your hours of preseason speculations came from the few minutes of video update from each practice. Now, your right about reports coming out of camp saying Dobbs was struggling and I don’t deny that, but do you really think the other QBs never struggled in camp just because there were no reports. Dobbs was under the spot light because he finished the season out and also was indeed struggeling, but that doesn’t change the present, which makes your argument is SO irrelevant. I’m not claiming he was better than anyone in the pre-season but your evidence of a few minutes of video from each practice that is NEVER focused on JUST Dobbs is nothing close to enough for complete QB analysis.

Fact: Dobbs had severe accuracy problems in 2013 that resulted in a HALF SEASON PLAY OF THREE INTERCEPTIONS for EACH TOUCHDOWN ratio..

Sure he had a tough season last year, the whole team did. He was a true freshman too. Idk what else you want to hear. It wouldn’t have mattered if it was Dobbs or Peterman with the way the rest of the team was performing. Especially if you think Peterman needs playing time to improve.

Fact: Peterman won the number two position following a vastly better performance than Dobbs in preseason..

Like I said, so what? Jones said himself the pre-season depth chart means nothing to the team and is more for the fans. The second the lights come on the first Saturday (Sunday) of the season the depth chart goes out the window. Now its game time performance that measures who starts EACH game, and who responds to game preparation, and game time situations.

Fact: Peterman played in the number two role all season up to and including Alabama..

And he was totally effective?

Fact: Dobbs was never REDSHIRTED. It didn't happen!
That RS was never as important as your imaginary narrative required..

Nah **** it (the RS) didn’t happen, Worley got hurt and Dobbs was forced to play. Unless of course you don’t want the team to make it to a bowl game. If I didn’t care about the team winning and making it to the bowl game, I wish Peterman could play a whole game just so he can amplify his SKILLS that you said he has, that’s nobody has seen against high competition.

Why do you deny the evidence that people have posted that have DIRECT information on Dobbs being RS’d in CBJs “perfect world”

YOUR SPECULATION: Coaches RedShirted Dobbs because he was too valuable to play this season - rather than acknowledge the FACT that he lost to Peterman and became extraneous and a possible RS candidate-.

You twist our words, the only way your too valuable to RS is if you’re the starting player at some position. Worley was the better choice, so why not give him (DOBBS) an extra year to grow. He obviously has a higher skill set and athletic ability that’s higher than a lot of our skilled players on our team. Do you really want to throw skill down the drain for mop up duty. Thats ridiculous!!

Your speculation not only defies all facts, but doesn't even hold it's own water. Dobbs was NOT REDSHIRTED. His eligibility was torched at mere convenience. It was obviously not the major priority driving him to the #3 position..

You act like being RS’d is a final decision at some point before the season. Its not. “It was obviously not the major priority driving him to the #3 position.” Is this a fact? Who did you hear it from? CBJ? WHY the HECK would you place a person you want to RS thats NOT your starter (which CBJ and Dobbs have mentioned in media) at the number 2 on the depth chart??????? Because Im pretty sure if you want to RS someone for ANY reason, WHICH WE DONT KNOW, we can just assume, you put them last on the depth chart, because you dont want to play them under any circumstance barring injury.


So you claim that peterman is better than Dobbs in practice or atleast in the preseason, but just needs more playing time to get ready for the SEC? If peterman needs more playing time to improve, why has Dobbs improved so much when he hasnt got any playing time this year. If Dobbs was #3 he shouldve received even less first team snaps in practice than Peterman. He obviously can't go from being a horrible QB with a bad interception to touchdown ratio just by practicing right???? If you want Peterman to play, you need to call him, IM sure you have him on your speed dial, and tell him to prepare for games while hes practicing and translate it to the field. I would love to see a healthy QB competition and see Peterman come out and play like a SEC QB but he hasnt shown it. CBJ is not going to put the teams neck on the line and ruin bowl chances for everyone by putting a kid that cant perform in SEC games just to develop him over the course of some crucial game. It doesnt matter if its one series or two series or a whole game, hes not going to do that to our team or fan base unless Dobbs gets hurt. Every games crucial on our schedule and if he cant come out and perform on the field like he did in the preseason hes not going to get a chance to do anything but make play calling signals, hold a clipboard, and warm the bench.