Bryce Brown?

[coffeevol]

I thought Hubbs put this to rest and he is staying put. One would think Hubbs knows much more about UT than BR.

 

[SGMVols]

I'd hate to see BB go, he's got crazy potential, but having Oku, Poole, and Williams sure takes most of the sting out of the thought of him leaving

It doesn't for me.

 

[SGMVols]

He's a psycho, he will not fit in with Dooley's vision.

You don't know anything more about Brown than the rest of us, so quit acting like it.

 

[Ericvol2096]

Ummm I am kinda sick that some of you are just acting like losing Brown wouldn't be a big deal.

He will be the best RB we have had since Jamal Lewis if he stays and finishes his career at TN.

He is a hard worker and in no way is he expecting a starting spot to be given to him.

 

[sjt18]

So, you don't think that Kelly sold some kids at Cincy on the fact that he would be there for their 4 years?

He probably told them a simple truth and they knew exactly what it meant: "I plan to be at Cincy for your career"... but this is an oranges and apples comparison. He left that roster a thousand times better than he found it. He had been there several years and did not leave in the same way Kiffin did either.

Same with Meyer at Utah?

Does not help your case. Meyer is a low class narcissist who would trade his mother's eyes for personal promotion. Yes. He lied to BGU then Utah... and many around here including me have criticized him for it.

Same with Saban at LSU?

If you had the time to check through my posts you would know that I've called Saban a mercenary. I'm somewhat surprised he's still at Bama but I guess no one has paid his price yet. Nonetheless, Saban completed the job at LSU. He won, raised the level of the program, stayed several years, and left it in such good shape that even an incompetent like Miles could continue to win there.

Same with Spurrier at Florida? Same with Calipari at Memphis? Same with Roy Williams at Kansas?

No comparison whatsoever. Spurrier and Williams more than delivered on any promise they had made... implicit or explicit.

NONE of the guys you mentioned were "persona non grata" except maybe Saban coming out of MSU. All stayed long enough to build the programs up. None that I am aware of left within 3 weeks of NSD. All had relatively long tenures before leaving except Meyer and Calipari... and Calipari's departure wasn't completely his decision. None that I am aware of specifically targeted the recruits and commits of their previous school much less tried to steal program info.

The bottom line is that both situations (Kiffin vs. whoever you want to list that has left a job for a better job) involve selfish reasons. It was selfish that Roy Williams wanted to go to UNC. It was selfish that Saban wanted to try out the NFL. It was selfish that Kiffin wanted to go to USC. It's all selfishness at the core of it... and, no I don't have a problem with any of that.

If you don't see the difference then your issues are much deeper than excusing Kiffin... of course your last comment pretty much demonstrates that.

Btw, I don't buy the whole "we did Kiffin a favor" argument. We don't hire Lane Kiffin without his dad and maybe without Orgeron. But, when those 2 were likely to come on board (especially his dad), UT would've looked like buffoons to not hire Kiffin. It was a fair exchange. This university and that staff were on par with each other so to speak.

No it wasn't. Kiffin wasn't getting HC offers. You can delude yourself in this incredible man crush you have... but the guy's next move was going to be OC somewhere. He was about to be on a 4 or 5 year path back to HC. He probably would not have gotten the USC job if UT hadn't hired him either.

But, I don't think taking your dream job falls into that category... like I said earlier, even if it was 2 weeks into his time here at UT.

I have actually walked that path in my own career. One company dumped me right after 9/11. No one was hiring... then a company in the midwest picked me up. I am from the SE and didn't want to move but did out of necessity. Within 2 years, a company in NC came calling and would have paid more money. The company that had basically saved me depended on me. I was neck deep in some important projects that could have gone bad had I left.... I stayed. After 7 years I left that company. I had returned the loyalty they deserved but wanted a new challenge and yes a chance for promotion... but I did it the right way instead of hosing people who had been good to me.

 

[sjt18]

Ummm I am kinda sick that some of you are just acting like losing Brown wouldn't be a big deal.

He will be the best RB we have had since Jamal Lewis if he stays and finishes his career at TN.

He is a hard worker and in no way is he expecting a starting spot to be given to him.

I think it would be a big deal. I don't want to lose him.

OTOH, he has not shown ANYTHING to make me think he will be the best back at UT since Jamal Lewis or that he even deserves to start. He has not demonstrated great vision or cutting ability. He hasn't shown that he's particularly difficult to tackle. He has not shown great skills in the open field or between the tackles.

His 460 yds sound impressive until you realize that 215 of those yards came against WKU, Ohio, and Memphis. Oku or Poole could have done that given the opportunity.

I hope he turns out great but I'm still looking for signs of it.

 

[Volfan8282]

To SJT18:

I'm not saying that those situations are the same. Obviously, they're not in terms of the timeframe. But, like I said in a previous post, I truly believe that a big reason why we don't see more coaches leaving after only a year somewhere is b/c of major programs wanting a proven track record. USC is taking a chance to some degree. It's just a rare circumstance.

The main difference in our opinions is that I don't mind coaches being mercenaries. That's why I don't have any issues really with Meyer or Saban. You obviously have major issues with that, and that's fine. Like I said, I view it as a job and usually as the means to a better job down the road.

I'm not arguing that Kiffin was or wasn't getting HC offers. I'm arguing that UT would've looked like idiots if they hadn't hired Kiffin when Monte and Orgeron were likely on board. If it was just Kiffin, I don't think UT offers him a HC position either. I really don't understand your point.

Look, that's great that you stayed with your company. I don't really care. I don't think your way is wrong or right. I think it's a personal deal, and we're not going to see eye to eye on it. I don't believe that there's anything wrong with going after a dream situation (regardless of circumstances). USC wasn't just about more money. In fact, I don't think money even factored into Kiffin's decision. I'm betting if you were just not very happy at your job and your family wasn't happy either, then you would make the change too (or at least understand when someone else does make that change). Peace out man...

 

[37620VOL]

Who did Bryce Brown tell that he was considering a transfer from the Vols? I want a name, not unnamed sources, or don't bother!

 

[BP4Prez]

Who did Bryce Brown tell that he was considering a transfer from the Vols? I want a name, not unnamed sources, or don't bother!

No one. I have not once seen where Bryce said that he was considering it.

 

[wheaton4prez]

The main difference in our opinions is that I don't mind coaches being mercenaries. That's why I don't have any issues really with Meyer or Saban. You obviously have major issues with that, and that's fine. Like I said, I view it as a job and usually as the means to a better job down the road.

I guess the part that leaves me scratching my head is that you keep pointing out that "this is a job." It seems like you're implying that jobs aren't very important. In my view, a persons job and how they do it is a big part of who they are. If your job involves leadership, in my opinion, you should be held to a high standard of integrity. Otherwise, you're basically accepting the rewards of the job (high pay, status) without doing anything worth following.

That's just the ethical part of this discussion. The other point is whether or not it was smart from a business perspective. I don't think it was for this reason: if Kiffin doesn't produce on the field in similar fashion to guys like Meyer and Saban, his antics diminish the chances that anyone will give him a second chance or more time to come through. He has made himself less marketable and he'll have to do exceedingly well at USC to climb out of that hole, just from a marketability stand-point.

Look, that's great that you stayed with your company. I don't really care. I don't think your way is wrong or right. I think it's a personal deal, and we're not going to see eye to eye on it. I don't believe that there's anything wrong with going after a dream situation (regardless of circumstances). USC wasn't just about more money. In fact, I don't think money even factored into Kiffin's decision. I'm betting if you were just not very happy at your job and your family wasn't happy either, then you would make the change too (or at least understand when someone else does make that change). Peace out man...

Now you're changing the facts of the case. Kiffin left FOR USC. He didn't leave BECAUSE of UT. Throwing UT under the bus for his own gain is not the same as leaving a job because it makes him unhappy. If Kiffin truly was unhappy with UT and that was the motivating force, he could have worked with the program to leave gracefully in a way that caused the least amount of damage to the program. Kiffin left when he did because it's what Kiffin needed to do for Kiffin, end of his consideration.

 

[wheaton4prez]

Who did Bryce Brown tell that he was considering a transfer from the Vols? I want a name, not unnamed sources, or don't bother!

I don't remember who reported it. But, if memory serves, the idea that he might transfer seems to have come from a statement he made that he would "wait and see" how the new coaching staff worked out.

 

[Volfan8282]

I guess the part that leaves me scratching my head is that you keep pointing out that "this is a job." It seems like you're implying that jobs aren't very important. In my view, a persons job and how they do it is a big part of who they are. If your job involves leadership, in my opinion, you should be held to a high standard of integrity. Otherwise, you're basically accepting the rewards of the job (high pay, status) without doing anything worth following.

That's just the ethical part of this discussion. The other point is whether or not it was smart from a business perspective. I don't think it was for this reason: if Kiffin doesn't produce on the field in similar fashion to guys like Meyer and Saban, his antics diminish the chances that anyone will give him a second chance or more time to come through. He has made himself less marketable and he'll have to do exceedingly well at USC to climb out of that hole, just from a marketability stand-point.


Now you're changing the facts of the case. Kiffin left FOR USC. He didn't leave BECAUSE of UT. Throwing UT under the bus for his own gain is not the same as leaving a job because it makes him unhappy. If Kiffin truly was unhappy with UT and that was the motivating force, he could have worked with the program to leave gracefully in a way that caused the least amount of damage to the program. Kiffin left when he did because it's what Kiffin needed to do for Kiffin, end of his consideration.

Yeah, it's a job. Plain and simple. If that job is not providing the happiness in life that you could have in another job, then why are you doing what you're doing, especially when you have an offer on the table that can change that? I've said on here before that I don't think Kiffin was miserable at UT, but I think he and his family are much happier at USC. He was using UT as a stepping stone job anyways to get back to USC or the NFL. Why continue to try to build up UT and have success here when you could just go ahead and accept the USC job?

Again, on the integrity issue, I don't think he showed a lack of integrity in the sheer act of taking the USC job. I know that we probably disagree on that. So, to me, he didn't do anything dishonorable or lacking integrity. He did a solid job here at UT. He tried every day to make the program better, and I think he did that. So, as far as his job "defining" him, I think he did well (from what I know) while he was here at UT. We just disagree on him taking the USC job.

But, again, that's where we are different. You think he has some obligations to UT, and I don't. He had a contract that would be honored as long as he was the coach at UT, and that's it. Maybe I look at it too simplistically, but I would rather be happy and have my family be happy than hack off some other people.

We'll see on the business decision part of it. He's only 34. Even if he blows it at USC, he'll resurface somewhere for recruiting purposes if nothing else. But, you're right in that it is a risk on his part to take that jump now and be in a top 3 job right now. If he fails, it'll take him a long time to get back to an elite job.

 

[sjt18]

To SJT18:

I'm not saying that those situations are the same. Obviously, they're not in terms of the timeframe. But, like I said in a previous post, I truly believe that a big reason why we don't see more coaches leaving after only a year somewhere is b/c of major programs wanting a proven track record. USC is taking a chance to some degree. It's just a rare circumstance.

Maybe. And USC was definitely in a similar situation to UT's after Kiffin left.... and STILL a man with an ounce of loyalty and character would have said "I can't". Men ruled by honor do not have to be ruled by force.

The main difference in our opinions is that I don't mind coaches being mercenaries.

Saban is a mercenary... I don't really mind it. That's just what he is.

That's why I don't have any issues really with Meyer or Saban. You obviously have major issues with that, and that's fine.

There's a difference between Meyer/Kiffin and Saban. All are self-promoting and mercenary. But Saban finished the job at LSU. He basically failed then got out of town at Miami. He will have turned Bama around obviously before leaving there when someone outbids them. To a lesser extent, you could say that Meyer turned Utah around. Both honored their moral "commitment" more than Kiffin. Both were in demand both on the way in and way out.

I'm not arguing that Kiffin was or wasn't getting HC offers. I'm arguing that UT would've looked like idiots if they hadn't hired Kiffin when Monte and Orgeron were likely on board. If it was just Kiffin, I don't think UT offers him a HC position either. I really don't understand your point.

UT had options when Kiffin was hired however there were other good options that in retrospect were better options. When Kiffin left, UT really didn't have options. Regardless of what people say or whether he succeeds or not... Dooley was well down the least right around the "we are really desperate" mark.

That situation was caused completely by Kiffin's like of honor, character, and loyalty.

Look, that's great that you stayed with your company. I don't really care. I don't think your way is wrong or right.

Really? You really don't think that when people in your life do good things to you that you owe them a debt of loyalty? You don't think that when you commit to do a job for someone that you are honor bound not to leave them in a lurch?

If so... that's truly sad... and I wish I knew your name so I'd be sure to never hire you.

I think it's a personal deal, and we're not going to see eye to eye on it.

No. It isn't a "personal deal". It is a right and wrong deal... a moral/immoral deal... and ethical/unethical deal.

I don't believe that there's anything wrong with going after a dream situation (regardless of circumstances).

Let's see how that translates to other moral/commitment situations... "I don't believe there's anything wrong with going after a dream girl even if I leave a wife and kids"... "...anything wrong with cheating on a test if it gets me my dream scholarship"... "... anything wrong with leaving a friend holding the bag and losing everything in a business deal gone bad if I get my pay day..."

USC wasn't just about more money. In fact, I don't think money even factored into Kiffin's decision.

Agree completely. But it DOES NOT MATTER why you do something that's wrong. The ends/desires do not justify the means/reasons EVER.

I'm betting if you were just not very happy at your job and your family wasn't happy either, then you would make the change too (or at least understand when someone else does make that change). Peace out man...

I don't know how old you are but you are very naive if you think any job is ever all grins and giggles. That said, Kiffin has specifically said that they weren't unhappy unless he was just lying then too.

I've made changes. There are right reasons and times to leave a job and take another. There are situations where it is ethical and done right. His was not ethical and was not done right.

 

[Volfan8282]

Maybe. And USC was definitely in a similar situation to UT's after Kiffin left.... and STILL a man with an ounce of loyalty and character would have said "I can't". Men ruled by honor do not have to be ruled by force.

Saban is a mercenary... I don't really mind it. That's just what he is. There's a difference between Meyer/Kiffin and Saban. All are self-promoting and mercenary. But Saban finished the job at LSU. He basically failed then got out of town at Miami. He will have turned Bama around obviously before leaving there when someone outbids them. To a lesser extent, you could say that Meyer turned Utah around. Both honored their moral "commitment" more than Kiffin. Both were in demand both on the way in and way out.

UT had options when Kiffin was hired however there were other good options that in retrospect were better options. When Kiffin left, UT really didn't have options. Regardless of what people say or whether he succeeds or not... Dooley was well down the least right around the "we are really desperate" mark.

That situation was caused completely by Kiffin's like of honor, character, and loyalty.

Really? You really don't think that when people in your life do good things to you that you owe them a debt of loyalty? You don't think that when you commit to do a job for someone that you are honor bound not to leave them in a lurch?

If so... that's truly sad... and I wish I knew your name so I'd be sure to never hire you.

No. It isn't a "personal deal". It is a right and wrong deal... a moral/immoral deal... and ethical/unethical deal.

Let's see how that translates to other moral/commitment situations... "I don't believe there's anything wrong with going after a dream girl even if I leave a wife and kids"... "...anything wrong with cheating on a test if it gets me my dream scholarship"... "... anything wrong with leaving a friend holding the bag and losing everything in a business deal gone bad if I get my pay day..."

Agree completely. But it DOES NOT MATTER why you do something that's wrong. The ends/desires do not justify the means/reasons EVER.

I don't know how old you are but you are very naive if you think any job is ever all grins and giggles. That said, Kiffin has specifically said that they weren't unhappy unless he was just lying then too.

I've made changes. There are right reasons and times to leave a job and take another. There are situations where it is ethical and done right. His was not ethical and was not done right.

We disagree on a lot of things, but the one thing that all of this turns on is whether his action of taking the USC job was moral or immoral. And, that's where we have different opinions. I don't think it was immoral or lacking integrity or whatever. You do. I would be the first to say to you that IF I thought something was immoral, then I wouldn't be OK with that. Read some of my previous posts to Wheaton4Prez. You and I just have different views of the situation. I don't put this in the immoral category in the same way that I do with cheating on your wife.

Anyways, that's the dividing line, and that's why I said that it's a personal decision b/c I don't view it as a right/wrong deal. You do, and IF I did, I would agree with you 100%... just like I do on the adultery issue. It's no biggie man. I just have a different vantage point.

 

[VolsRule]

How will brown tell how the new coaches are "working out" after just a spring practice? How is he going to evaluate them to make a transfer decision?

 

[slobberknocker]

Never thought BB would be a prima donna, but if it's true, then make a decision quick BB, we've got work to do.


SERIOUSLY........
did all the hype before signing not give you a clue..
come on...
man i hope you were being sarcastic, otherwise dense

So you're calling me dense huh? The whole recruiting process is hype and it's getting worse every year. And you were probably one of the girls waiting with baited breath to see if he chose the Vols.

 

[wheaton4prez]

Yeah, it's a job. Plain and simple. If that job is not providing the happiness in life that you could have in another job, then why are you doing what you're doing, especially when you have an offer on the table that can change that? I've said on here before that I don't think Kiffin was miserable at UT, but I think he and his family are much happier at USC. He was using UT as a stepping stone job anyways to get back to USC or the NFL. Why continue to try to build up UT and have success here when you could just go ahead and accept the USC job?

You can't have it both ways. He left UT because he wanted to be at USC. Not because he was unhappy with UT.

It would be fine if something about UT made him unhappy and he made steps to move on gracefully. That isn't what Kiffin did.

Again, on the integrity issue, I don't think he showed a lack of integrity in the sheer act of taking the USC job. I know that we probably disagree on that. So, to me, he didn't do anything dishonorable or lacking integrity. He did a solid job here at UT. He tried every day to make the program better, and I think he did that. So, as far as his job "defining" him, I think he did well (from what I know) while he was here at UT. We just disagree on him taking the USC job.

His lack of integrity comes from behaving as if he cared about UT and then doing something to damage it because it he thought it would benefit himself. Lane Kiffin benefitted from the appearance of being committed to the success of UT by being handsomely compensated. As we discovered, Kiffin was not committed to the success of UT enough to avoid leaving them in a damaging situation in order to further himself. If the powers that be at UT knew this fact before-hand, they would not have hired Lane Kiffin. They would have hired someone who could do a good job recruiting AND be genuine in his commitment to the success of the program. In other words, he deceived UT in a significant way to get something for himself. That is a lack of integrity.

We disagree on a lot of things, but the one thing that all of this turns on is whether his action of taking the USC job was moral or immoral. And, that's where we have different opinions. I don't think it was immoral or lacking integrity or whatever. You do. I would be the first to say to you that IF I thought something was immoral, then I wouldn't be OK with that. Read some of my previous posts to Wheaton4Prez. You and I just have different views of the situation. I don't put this in the immoral category in the same way that I do with cheating on your wife.

Anyways, that's the dividing line, and that's why I said that it's a personal decision b/c I don't view it as a right/wrong deal. You do, and IF I did, I would agree with you 100%... just like I do on the adultery issue. It's no biggie man. I just have a different vantage point.

The argument you are using in this case is a logical fallacy. You are trying to say that deception for the cause of self-advancement is ok in one situation but not the other. You simply say that you categorize it differently but provide no logical basis for doing so. Being honest is part of the definition of the word integrity. If a person does not adhere to that principle, they are lacking in integrity. There is nothing in the definition of the word that denotes that deception in the work-place is an exception.

Why specifically is deception justifiable in regard to a persons job when it's not ok in regard to a persons marriage?

 

[Volfan8282]

You can't have it both ways. He left UT because he wanted to be at USC. Not because he was unhappy with UT.

It would be fine if something about UT made him unhappy and he made steps to move on gracefully. That isn't what Kiffin did.



His lack of integrity comes from behaving as if he cared about UT and then doing something to damage it because it he thought it would benefit himself. Lane Kiffin benefitted from the appearance of being committed to the success of UT by being handsomely compensated. As we discovered, Kiffin was not committed to the success of UT enough to avoid leaving them in a damaging situation in order to further himself. If the powers that be at UT knew this fact before-hand, they would not have hired Lane Kiffin. They would have hired someone who could do a good job recruiting AND be genuine in his commitment to the success of the program. In other words, he deceived UT in a significant way to get something for himself. That is a lack of integrity.



The argument you are using in this case is a logical fallacy. You are trying to say that deception for the cause of self-advancement is ok in one situation but not the other. You simply say that you categorize it differently but provide no logical basis for doing so. Being honest is part of the definition of the word integrity. If a person does not adhere to that principle, they are lacking in integrity. There is nothing in the definition of the word that denotes that deception in the work-place is an exception.

Why specifically is deception justifiable in regard to a persons job when it's not ok in regard to a persons marriage?

To SJT18 as well:

I'm starting to come around to y'all's point of view. I can definitely see where you're both coming from. You got me to thinking on the integrity issue in the workplace.

I do think that coaching, especially in a major conference like the SEC, is a different animal. The competitive streaks in all of these coaches can cause even the most honorable man to lie at times. But, that shouldn't excuse someone from lying. I don't know all the specifics about what Kiffin said during his tenure here. I never heard him say "I'm all Vol" but then again, I could've missed it. Regardless, I'm sure he did convince the administration and especially recruits that he would be here. Even if Saban, Meyer, Calipari, etc. did the same thing, it's still wrong. I'll go with that.

 

[wheaton4prez]

I'm impressed by your own integrity in being willing to re-evaluate this. That's better than most forum-goers do.

I also agree that these types of transgressions in the sports industry aren't that uncommon. They're usually just not as overt as Kiffin's. I couldn't believe the press conference he gave when he left. It was just so obvious that the guy didn't care enough to even put much thought into how he would explain it.

 

[sjt18]

Thanks Volfan8282. It says a great deal about a person when they're willing to change their point of view IMO. You presented your POV well... Iron sharpens iron in debate.

Even if we had not agreed, the exercise of challenging our beliefs and opinions is healthy.

BTW, do you actually have an opinion about Bryce Brown? I can't remember.

Just trying to read the situation and scant comments from afar... I'd say it is either much ado about nothing or he's already made up his mind. "Wait and see" (if he said it) is usually what someone says when they've made up their mind and are just waiting to take action. If that's the case, it isn't a lost cause... but close.

 

[Volinnooga]

Wheaton, SJT and Volman--any way you guys could PM each other so we can leave this thread to its stated topic--Bryce Brown?

 

[BearBryant]

Bryce Brown --- He was not as impressive as the talk about him. Maybe it was injuries and he was only a freshman. With or without BB running back will not be a problem for The Vols next year.

 

[EricFreakingBerry]

Bryce Brown --- He was not as impressive as the talk about him. Maybe it was injuries and he was only a freshman. With or without BB running back will not be a problem for The Vols next year.

With Montario playing out of his mind last year, there wasn't 15-20 carries a game available for Bryce as a freshman, especially in SEC play. I'd say 4.6 yards a carry and over 400 yards rushing is a solid way to kickoff a college career as a true freshman.

We would miss Bryce for sure if he decided to transfer.

 

[sjt18]

Wheaton, SJT and Volman--any way you guys could PM each other so we can leave this thread to its stated topic--Bryce Brown?

Sorry. You are probably right but I think we're done.

 

[BearBryant]

With Montario playing out of his mind last year, there wasn't 15-20 carries a game available for Bryce as a freshman, especially in SEC play. I'd say 4.6 yards a carry and over 400 yards rushing is a solid way to kickoff a college career as a true freshman.

We would miss Bryce for sure if he decided to transfer.

I don't think we would miss him at all. If he's transferring he probably is concerned about his playing time. The other thing unless you have a talent like Bo Jackson, Hershell Walker, The murderer, good quality running backs are almost a dime a dozen.