Barnes on Developing Young Talent

#1

glv98

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#1
Rick's situation is very similar to KJH's - depleted roster, key injuries, young players with far bigger roles than ideal. He was asked in his presser today how he balances the need to let young players "play through" mistakes against the interests of the team winning games. I thought his answer was very interesting and certainly applies to the LV situation with our young, turnover prone talent.

Rick is always thought to be a hardass who yanks for almost every mistake. But he said pulling a kid for a mistake is almost never punitive, especially with a young player. Instead, he says he carefully watches the youngsters demeanor and yanks to protect the player from being down on himself or in a situation where he is set up to fail. Said he can tell by body language when a young player is overwhelmed or frustrated and "playing thru" becomes harmful. Interestingly, he said every instance of a youngster having a bad game or bad stretch that harms the team sets back their development 2-3 weeks.

Made me feel more than ever its time to try Horston off the bench, start Burrell instead. I know the idea of using Burrell more to help reduce turnovers is kind of silly, but I'm starting to worry the abundance of playing time is hurting, not helping JH. Just trying something different to shake things up for her, in no way punitive, just trying to help her get over the hump may be in order. What we're doing now is clearly not working for her and we need to stop putting her in a situation to fail right now.
 
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#3
Rick's situation is very similar to KJH's - depleted roster, key injuries, young players with far bigger roles than ideal. He was asked in his presser today how he balances the need to let young players "play through" mistakes against the interests of the team winning games. I thought his answer was very interesting and certainly applies to the LV situation with our young, turnover prone talent.

Rick is always thought to be a hardass who yanks for almost every mistake. But he said pulling a kid for a mistake is almost never punitive, especially with a young player. Instead, he says he carefully watches the youngsters demeanor and yanks to protect the player from being down on himself or in a situation where he is set up to fail. Said he can tell by body language when a young player is overwhelmed or frustrated and "playing thru" becomes harmful. Interestingly, he said every instance of a youngster having a bad game or bad stretch that harms the team sets back their development 2-3 weeks.

Made me feel more than ever its time to try Horston off the bench, start Burrell instead. I know the idea of using Burrell more to help reduce turnovers is kind of silly, but I'm starting to worry the abundance of playing time is hurting, not helping JH. Just trying something different to shake things up for her, in no way punitive, just trying to help her get over the hump may be in order. What we're doing now is clearly not working for her and we need to stop putting her in a situation to fail right now.

You had me until paragraph 3
 
#5

lvocd

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#5
I agree with most of your post, glv98, but I don't think Jordan is "failing" at all. She leads the team in assists and steals -- 2nd in the entire SEC in assists -- and has come through with many incredible buckets and boards for us throughout the season. What she IS doing, however, is struggling with ball handling. I think it might do her some good to try coming off the bench after letting the pre-game jitters settle a bit, watching and consulting with a staff member for a few minutes to get her focus sharp before entering the game. What everyone thought would be good for Rae could also be good for Jordan.

I get the feeling that Kellie has hesitated to do that because Jordan may be a little bit too hard on herself and might go into a shell. But I believe there has to be a way to try something new with the starting lineup without Jordan feeling like she's been pushed out. It's easy to see how much Jordan loves her teammates and how desperately she wants the team to succeed, so if she could just shift gears mentally to let Kellie try something a little different for the betterment of the team, I believe she'll be okay. She's got most of her career ahead of her! No need for her to feel hurt or embarrassed or like a failure if the coach wants to experiment a little.
 
#6

glv98

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#6
I agree with most of your post, glv98, but I don't think Jordan is "failing" at all. She leads the team in assists and steals -- 2nd in the entire SEC in assists
Fail is arguably too strong, OTOH her assist to t.o. is completely unacceptable and not getting better. Can't address the LVs biggest problem, turnovers, without starting with the player who accounts for 1/4 of them by herself. None of that is to diminish her contributions but in turn her contributions don't justify not making an active effort to help her address this huge area of concern.
I get the feeling that Kellie has hesitated to do that because Jordan may be a little bit too hard on herself and might go into a shell.
Barnes says that's the exact delicate balance for coaches. Of course players want to play and start, but he says players can also go into a shell and be hard on themselves if allowed to continue to make 5 or 6 t.o.s a game and continue to hurt the teams chances to win. KJH will figure it out I'm sure, and to some extent, hopefully, simple time and experience will fix things. What to do to help her while we wait for time and experience to kick in is really important right now.
 
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#7
Fail is arguably too strong, OTOH her assist to t.o. is completely unacceptable and not getting better. Can't address the LVs biggest problem, turnovers, without starting with the player who accounts for 1/4 of them by herself. None of that is to diminish her contributions but in turn her contributions don't justify not making an active effort to help her address this huge area of concern....

I've got to call you out on this...1.1 to 1.0 is acceptable
2 to 1 is preferred
and anything above 2 to 1 is splendid

Jordans numbers are 114 assists to 103 turnovers for a rating of 1.106 to 1.00
Rennia's numbers are 48 assists to 57 turnovers for a rating of 0.84 to 1.00
and I haven't heard a word about hers

Jordan is a natural Small Forward,not a natural PG
She drives like a sf, shoots the 3, stop-n-pops, shoots floaters and defends four positions...that is the very definition of a SF
She is playing out of position bc Rennia is a natural SF also
On ANY other team in the country she would be an SF

Want to hear the rest of the teams a-to ratios?
 
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#9

KrazyVolFan

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#9
I don't think it's a bad idea to try it, something has to change. Maybe coming off the bench will slow the game down for her. I also don't think it would be too far of a stretch for Rae to start instead of Lou. Anything , please, just stop with all the turnovers. Try something. Remember the definition of insanity?
 
#10

glv98

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#10
I've got to call you out on this...1.1 to 1.0 is acceptable
2 to 1 is preferred
and anything above 2 to 1 is splendid

Jordans numbers are 114 assists to 103 turnovers for a rating of 1.106 to 1.00
Rennia's numbers are 48 assists to 57 turnovers for a rating of 0.84 to 1.00
and I haven't heard a word about hers

Jordan is a natural Small Forward,not a natural PG
She drives like a sf, shoots the 3, stop-n-pops, shoots floaters and defends four positions...that is the very definition of a SF
She is playing out of position bc Rennia is a natural SF also
On ANY other team in the country she would be an SF

Want to hear the rest of the teams a-to ratios?
I don't think 1/1 for a guard is acceptable for an elite SEC team. I already know the a/t.o for the rest of team, they're dismal. Only Jaz has a good one. So if a player manages to be high in a pile of dismal and damaging ratios she should not be helped to get better? That's crazy.

If you haven't heard a word about Rennia's loose handle, you haven't been listening. Lots have said its the weakest part of her game. Ditto for Burrell.

Which is why your proposal earlier to move Jaz to SF and let Jordan and Rennia do the ball handling up the court is borderline insane. Take ball handling duties away from the ONE player with a good ratio and turn it over to the two with the most t.o.s on the team? Can't see that helping alot.
 
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I don't think 1/1 for a guard is acceptable for an elite SEC team. I already know the a/t.o for the rest of team, they're dismal. Only Jaz has a good one. So if a player manages to be high in a pile of dismal and damaging ratios she should not be helped to get better? That's crazy.

If you haven't heard a word about Rennia's loose handle, you haven't been listening. Lots have said its the weakest part of her game. Ditto for Burrell.

Which is why your proposal earlier to move Jaz to SF and let Jordan and Rennia do the ball handling up the court is borderline insane. Take ball handling duties away from the ONE player with a good ratio and turn it over to the two with the most t.o.s on the team? Can't see that helping alot.
 
#13

lvocd

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#13
Without Ayana Mitchell, Thursday’s game at LSU may be an opportunity for Kellie to experiment with the lineup here and there. NOT to suggest that they’re a cupcake, even without Mitchell. But there’ll be zero chance that Kellie can play with lineups against either TA&M or Arkansas. But since the LSU game is a must-win, Kellie may not feel comfortable with trying too much out of the ordinary. Might have to wait for that final stretch of Vandy, Ole Miss and Auburn.

I cannot believe the season is almost over. :confused: This has been the fastest passing season in my memory. Ugh.
 
#14

RAVOL

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#14
Big difference though for Barnes playing his young guys more time to build for future with experience than Kellie because other than Rae and KK who is not young the others on the bench have no future at this level. Little guard from Australia can play against TSU but not SEC and Saunders I know some have asked why she isn't getting a chance well I watched her against the TSU types this year and she is really slow of foot. Maybe she sticks because of Height but I didn't see it.
 
#16

tn4everlvfl

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#16
Big difference though for Barnes playing his young guys more time to build for future with experience than Kellie because other than Rae and KK who is not young the others on the bench have no future at this level. Little guard from Australia can play against TSU but not SEC and Saunders I know some have asked why she isn't getting a chance well I watched her against the TSU types this year and she is really slow of foot. Maybe she sticks because of Height but I didn't see it.
She’s definitely not slow. And for sure not the slowest. She’s not awkward with her movement either.
 
#17

tn4everlvfl

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#17
Please don’t shoot me for my observation or opinion but, it seems to me that some are willing to criticize the ones who aren’t even given the chance while the ones who get chance after chance after chance, excuses are made for them? I totally get the “young player” or “freshman learning her way” but what about the ones who want the chance and don’t get it?
 
#18

Volfaninfl2

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#18
Thought almost everyone made valid observations in this thread, and some were funny. No freshman should be playing because she would get too upset to sit on the bench, no matter how highly rated she was in high school. Observation is learning, too, and team wins versus playing your future great player is a tough decision, but what no one is mentioning is that Jordan plays great Defense, now.
 
#19

Volfan2012

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#19
The main thing you need to get out of the young players is focused aggressive play. That is hard to do for a lot of players while some come by it naturally. Grant Williams now in the NBA came in ready to be aggressive and was mentally focused. Some guys we got this year are really soft and make a lot of mental errors. Same with the Lady Vols players don't have enough mental focus. When you get that out of anyone player or group of players your ready to win.
 
#20

krichunaka

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#20
If we have only Jazmine, Rae, and Jordan to play guard, and since bringing Rennia out to do more handling is likely not going to happen ...that leaves Jessie. And, while I likely have more confidence in her than the huge majority here, and while I sense that Coach Kellie really likes many things about her and her game, and that she and staff will help her become much better, it’s difficult to see her as a major minutes player ...this season. And, this, not just because she’s that far behind (she already does some things better) but because the other, faster, more athletic players are themselves struggling mightily. Against Mississippi State, Jazmine and Jordan were spending several seconds thirty feet from the basket. Dribbling. It’s hard to find an open shooter when under that kind of pressure, if and when the shooter can get open. That was some awfully good defense, compounded by the “type” of game being called. There was a lot of hand checking. No excuse, sometimes that’s just the way it is.
So, we simply do not have anyone else to put into the game for significant stretches. Rae is playing all the minutes she can handle. Same for Jordan. And, of course, same for Jazmine.
I’m not questioning anyone’s knowledge - I’m sure you have the team’s best interest at heart - and some of you actually do, or have coached. And, I don’t want to rain on the parade, but, the only path forward ...this season, is to GET BETTER! With the players we have. Everything I’ve seen suggested is nothing more than “moving” minutes. And, I get that. And, it might work. There could be some psychological light that will ...light. If we reduce the turnovers, get a little stronger with the ball - out front, and in the post - and get back to boxing out, we can be something special.
But, that’s a lotta ground to cover in a short amount of time.
 
#21

Volfaninfl2

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#21
The main thing you need to get out of the young players is focused aggressive play. That is hard to do for a lot of players while some come by it naturally. Grant Williams now in the NBA came in ready to be aggressive and was mentally focused. Some guys we got this year are really soft and make a lot of mental errors. Same with the Lady Vols players don't have enough mental focus. When you get that out of anyone player or group of players your ready to win.
Grant Williams turned down scholarships from Ivy League schools. He played several musical instruments, he had the patience of Job, tremendous work ethic, and he was built like a Mack truck. Not many can compare.
 
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#22

Volfan2012

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#22
Grant Williams turned down scholarships from Ivy League schools. He played several musical instruments, he had the patience of Job, tremendous work ethic, and he was built like a Mack truck. Not many can compare.
His basketball IQ was higher as a freshman than most players have as a senior. I just wish we could find those kind of players in every class women's and men.
 
#23

JFP

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#23
If we have only Jazmine, Rae, and Jordan to play guard, and since bringing Rennia out to do more handling is likely not going to happen ...that leaves Jessie. And, while I likely have more confidence in her than the huge majority here, and while I sense that Coach Kellie really likes many things about her and her game, and that she and staff will help her become much better, it’s difficult to see her as a major minutes player ...this season. And, this, not just because she’s that far behind (she already does some things better) but because the other, faster, more athletic players are themselves struggling mightily. Against Mississippi State, Jazmine and Jordan were spending several seconds thirty feet from the basket. Dribbling. It’s hard to find an open shooter when under that kind of pressure, if and when the shooter can get open. That was some awfully good defense, compounded by the “type” of game being called. There was a lot of hand checking. No excuse, sometimes that’s just the way it is.
So, we simply do not have anyone else to put into the game for significant stretches. Rae is playing all the minutes she can handle. Same for Jordan. And, of course, same for Jazmine.
I’m not questioning anyone’s knowledge - I’m sure you have the team’s best interest at heart - and some of you actually do, or have coached. And, I don’t want to rain on the parade, but, the only path forward ...this season, is to GET BETTER! With the players we have. Everything I’ve seen suggested is nothing more than “moving” minutes. And, I get that. And, it might work. There could be some psychological light that will ...light. If we reduce the turnovers, get a little stronger with the ball - out front, and in the post - and get back to boxing out, we can be something special.
But, that’s a lotta ground to cover in a short amount of time.
Kelly's plate is full without taking the time to work with the individual players until their errors are erased. She does take the time as much as she can no doubt. Perhaps other assistants are trying but don't have the talents that Coach Jumper has verbally illustrated in his years as a very solid fan of the Lady Vols. Some people have talents others either do not have or talents that can vastly aid and contribute. Nothing to lose and much to gain by giving him a shot non-competitive to those already working in the program. As per the 3 musketeers ''one for all and all for one.'' The Lady Vols come to the great UT arena for the most part with simple high school training. The best of them have dreams of honing skills in Knoxville for the pro ranks. In the history of this nation a study of our great leaders victories in all fields and battles show choosing winning support in worthwhile endeavors is a win, win.
 
#24

Volfan2012

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#24
Kelly's plate is full without taking the time to work with the individual players until their errors are erased. She does take the time as much as she can no doubt. Perhaps other assistants are trying but don't have the talents that Coach Jumper has verbally illustrated in his years as a very solid fan of the Lady Vols. Some people have talents others either do not have or talents that can vastly aid and contribute. Nothing to lose and much to gain by giving him a shot non-competitive to those already working in the program. As per the 3 musketeers ''one for all and all for one.'' The Lady Vols come to the great UT arena for the most part with simple high school training. The best of them have dreams of honing skills in Knoxville for the pro ranks. In the history of this nation a study of our great leaders victories in all fields and battles show choosing winning support in worthwhile endeavors is a win, win.
I don't think you can really develop decision making and IQ for a player. They have to do that on their own and in our present position the main players needing to get better are the most talented and still have to play. So we have to hope the light comes on and fewer mistakes are made. This season the team personnel especially at guard is severely limited we'll have a few more bodies to work with next season.
 
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#25
I don't think you can really develop decision making and IQ for a player. They have to do that on their own and in our present position the main players needing to get better are the most talented and still have to play. So we have to hope the light comes on and fewer mistakes are made. This season the team personnel especially at guard is severely limited we'll have a few more bodies to work with next season.

You develop individual IQ AND you develop team IQ.

Individual IQ by teaching beyond the basics:
....Initiate contact on a contact layup drive off of the plant-foot. Contact must be made on the uncoiling of the "gather" to get the call
...To draw a foul on a charge you must do a butt-slide bc if the refs see you stumble, they think you were late, if they see a butt-slide they consider it is because of impact
...There are two primary focal points when shooting a foul shot and you must practice both
...There is no such thing as one release in shooting because there are three scenarios: Rhythm-shot, set-shot and moving shots. All three have different mechanics

You teach Team IQ by helping them to understand concepts like
...If the post doesn't signal the pass they want, they will not get the pass they need/expect
...A ball that touches five different players off of a rebound can beat a dribbler who brings the ball down by themselves every time

IQ is most definitely developed by instruction.

Monkey see, monkey do, monkey don't know why...Humans need to know why to understand how not to be a monkey
 

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