as a Centrist.. who should I be supporting?

#127
#127
VOLatile said:
While I agree that people that aren't productive shouldn't vote, plenty of the people that your policy would eliminate are very productive. Government grants, specifically for higher education, aren't sucking on the teet of society, either. They're enabling those that had insufficient means to better themselves. For instance, my parents' have piss poor credit. My fault that they couldn't co-sign for a student loan for me? No. So why should I have been punished?

None of that's going to change, though, so no point in debating it. No sane candidate will bring up a bill or amendment that would take away the right to vote from so many people.
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It's not your fault that your parents had bad credit. However, it is their fault. We, society, do not know if you will take after them or not. We do not know if you will be productive or not. So, if you wanna eat Uncle Sugar's candy, then it is only fair that you spend a few years demonstrating that you can and will be productive before we just let you make important decisions for the rest us just because 'you are over 18 and have a pulse'.

NEOCON said:
I never mentioned grants, etc. I could care less about grants. I personally have no problem with the government paying 100% of a persons college as long as that person works and resides in the US so the government can get a return on its income.

No reason a kid who makes straight A's or all B's and A's and strives to be a better person shouldnt be able to to college under any circumstance.

Hard work needs to always be rewarded.
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I disagree. Hard work should always be rewarded, but the reward is the success. There is no reason to compel me to put up your reward.
 
#128
#128
The reward for hard work in high school should always ben the ability to get a college degree from it and the ability to pay for it.

Kid comes from a broken home. Kid pulls a 3.01 average and also has to work to support his mom because his dad is a deadbeat and doesn't pay child support.

Kid deserves to go to college, through full ride grants, etc. If society uses college as a basis for getting a job, then anyone who wants to work hard should be given the ability to pay for college.

All should qualify for loans etc.

I also don't view a college degree as success. But society has created a system where if you are not a business owner you are going to need a degree to get a job that pays more than minimum wage.
 
#130
#130
NEOCON said:
The reward for hard work in high school should always ben the ability to get a college degree from it and the ability to pay for it.

Kid comes from a broken home. Kid pulls a 3.01 average and also has to work to support his mom because his dad is a deadbeat and doesn't pay child support.

Kid deserves to go to college, through full ride grants, etc. If society uses college as a basis for getting a job, then anyone who wants to work hard should be given the ability to pay for college.

All should qualify for loans etc.

I also don't view a college degree as success. But society has created a system where if you are not a business owner you are going to need a degree to get a job that pays more than minimum wage.
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This kind of idea led us to the mortgage implosion and the OWS idiocy.

You only ever deserve what you earn.
 
#131
#131
RespectTradition said:
This kind of idea led us to the mortgage implosion and the OWS idiocy.

You only ever deserve what you earn.
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I gotta disagree.

I don't believe placing someone into a situation which they cannot afford just to keep the bubble going is the same as giving everyone who wants to better themselves through hard work the keys to college.

It's really not that far off from where we are now either. WE already pay for 12 years. Why not the next 4 where it matters to companies? And then do what the merchant marine academy does and makes you work in that industry for atleast 4 years in the US?

You really see giving a US citizen a college degree the same as giving them a house well over their means?
 
#132
#132
Also re-read your bold part.

By loans I mean student loans only.

No other type was I commenting on.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.
 
#133
#133
RespectTradition said:
This kind of idea led us to the mortgage implosion and the OWS idiocy.

You only ever deserve what you earn.
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So, if I had to bust my ass off for 10 years to "earn" my opportunity to get a college degree, and it's already too late to begin my career and lead to a timely retirement by the time I graduate, then what do you say? Those born into money have no hurdles to jump. This will only widen the gap.
 
#134
#134
VOLatile said:
So, if I had to bust my ass off for 10 years to "earn" my opportunity to get a college degree, and it's already too late to begin my career and lead to a timely retirement by the time I graduate, then what do you say? Those born into money have no hurdles to jump. This will only widen the gap.
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Dude you gotta stop being such an extremist.

You go from "your hard work" story to an OWS 1% comment.

Poor people become rich all the time and get it done due to hard work.

And what is a timely retirement? Just asking???
 
#135
#135
NEOCON said:
I gotta disagree.

I don't believe placing someone into a situation which they cannot afford just to keep the bubble going is the same as giving everyone who wants to better themselves through hard work the keys to college.

It's really not that far off from where we are now either. WE already pay for 12 years. Why not the next 4 where it matters to companies? And then do what the merchant marine academy does and makes you work in that industry for atleast 4 years in the US?

You really see giving a US citizen a college degree the same as giving them a house well over their means?
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I think we should stop paying for the first 12 to be honest with you. You only value what you earn.
NEOCON said:
Also re-read your bold part.

By loans I mean student loans only.

No other type was I commenting on.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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You were clear. I was comparing it to the other because it seems to be the same kind of reasoning to me.
VOLatile said:
So, if I had to bust my ass off for 10 years to "earn" my opportunity to get a college degree, and it's already too late to begin my career and lead to a timely retirement by the time I graduate, then what do you say? Those born into money have no hurdles to jump. This will only widen the gap.
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Finally, you get it. Yes, you should have to earn it or have someone willing to give it to you. To get it from the unwilling, like me, is theft. I grew up on a farm and worked my butt off. My parents never had the money to give me the luxuries. If I hadn't gotten scholarships, then I couldn't have gone to college without working harder than I already did. I did factory work one summer and worked the rest of my summers as an electrician. I made good.

You seem to think that somehow when or even if you retire is my responsibility. It's not. It's yours.

Boohoo, some people are born with stuff. I don't have stuff. WAAAAAH! So freaking what. You know what I say to the income gap. Who cares! If Bill Gates has $500 billion or $50 billion, it does not take away from what I have. He earned his money, he has a right to it. I earned mine, I have a right to it. The economy is not a zero sum game. For someone to have more does not mean that someone else has less. Whining about income gaps is kindergarten ideas of fairness.
 
#136
#136
Ok, you're a logical guy. Work through the pay the first 12 years part with me. Inner city kid with a single mom is not going to school come first grade if the parent has to even lift a finger to help 8 out of 19 times. There is no way a under 18n year old should have to suffer because of the parents choices.

Also, don't see rewarding a hard working kid with the ability to get a degree the same as a no doc loan or placing a low income person into a house they dont deserve just because they feel like it.
 
#137
#137
I also view giving a kid the ability to go to school the same as Christ giving fishes to the masses. It didn't give them more than they needed to survive.

Giving someone a 280K home when they can live just as safely in an apartment that they can afford to me is not giving fishes, it would be like Christ handing out filet and 1000 dollar bottles of Dom ... which we all know he didn't do.
 
#138
#138
NEOCON said:
Ok, you're a logical guy. Work through the pay the first 12 years part with me. Inner city kid with a single mom is not going to school come first grade if the parent has to even lift a finger to help 8 out of 19 times. There is no way a under 18n year old should have to suffer because of the parents choices.

Also, don't see rewarding a hard working kid with the ability to get a degree the same as a no doc loan or placing a low income person into a house they dont deserve just because they feel like it.
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We have let the education system brainwash us into thinking that education is indispensable. It's not. Our schools are full of children who don't want to be there with parents who don't care what they do as long as they get free child care. That, more than anything, explains the state of our educational system. We have had presidents who didn't learn to read until married. Edison only went through the fifth grade if I remember. Yes, this is a different time. But I think if our schools have children who want to be there or at least parents who care if they learn, then our system will work. Better educated, motivated people with a willingness to work will make a difference. Children have to suffer for their parent's choices all the time.
 
#139
#139
NEOCON said:
I also view giving a kid the ability to go to school the same as Christ giving fishes to the masses. It didn't give them more than they needed to survive.

Giving someone a 280K home when they can live just as safely in an apartment that they can afford to me is not giving fishes, it would be like Christ handing out filet and 1000 dollar bottles of Dom ... which we all know he didn't do.
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Christ didn't tax people to give away fishes.
 
#144
#144
RespectTradition said:
always assumed they had been voluntarily given
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I see your point.

I also assume you give to your church.

What is the difference between building schools in Kenya etc for students to have a place to learn and building a system here where students can go to college?
 
#145
#145
NEOCON said:
Ok, you're a logical guy. Work through the pay the first 12 years part with me. Inner city kid with a single mom is not going to school come first grade if the parent has to even lift a finger to help 8 out of 19 times. There is no way a under 18n year old should have to suffer because of the parents choices.

Also, don't see rewarding a hard working kid with the ability to get a degree the same as a no doc loan or placing a low income person into a house they dont deserve just because they feel like it.
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that kid would have grants coming out the wazoo. Everyone doesn't deserve to go to college. Give in to that and then everyone deserves an MBA/PhD.
 
#147
#147
NEOCON said:
I see your point.

I also assume you give to your church.

What is the difference between building schools in Kenya etc for students to have a place to learn and building a system here where students can go to college?
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white guilt
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