Are there really 51 Power 5 coaches better than Butch?

[SGMVols]

Beating fl was big. Imagine the rest of the season playing out the way it did, AND getting hammered at home by Florida...

Either way though. The season was what it was, and this ranking means something more to anyone that values the losses more than the wins.

I don't agree with the "rank " , but I don't care enough to split hairs over it either.

The Florida comeback saved him from already being fired. No way he would've been retained going 7-5 in what was supposed to be our year.

 

[Orange_Vol1321]

Yep, KB, because Michigan wasn't broke the way Tennessee was broke. Not in talent on board, not in relationships with the high school coaches they needed to recruit from, not in relationships with boosters, none of that.

Michigan may have started below par, but Tennessee started below sea level.

That's why I like comparing where they are today...because if you compare them both from their own starting lines, they're at totally different places.

Great post JP. Two HUGE different situations that's like comparing a watermelon to a blackberry. It's impossible to do unless you have an agenda.

 

[jakez4ut]

The Florida comeback saved him from already being fired. No way he would've been retained going 7-5 in what was supposed to be our year.

either way, no way to know. i tend to believe that he would not have been fired, simply because there was an active AD and Chancellor search going on, i don't get the notion, from how well we did at handling all that, that adding the HFC search on the pile would have been desirable.

i will say this, lose the FL game and the season go like it did, there would be no divide in the fan base as to what we all think should happen.:thumbsup:

 

[BeecherVol]

Hmm, super bowl LOSS versus outback bowl WIN.

Always take the win. Bigger wins can follow later.

Harbaugh's a brides maid so far. As KB pointed out, Butch isn't even that yet. Perhaps neither of them ever get to be the bride. Time will tell.

True.

NFC champ vs. Outback Champ would be a better comparison.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

So Butch is all of 8 games better than a guy you say has "done nothing worthy as a permanent head coach" and you are proud of Butch?


Awesome.

Dude, Wylo, do you football?

22-29 is a 43% win rate. 30-21 is a 59% win rate. That is a HUGE difference in success, given that almost all coaches ride between 25% and 75% lifetime.

Having said that, the guy you're responding to is wrong: Butch is actually 80-48 as a head coach. I mean, he counted every HC job Orgeron had, it's only fair to do the same with Butch.

(80-48 is a 62.5% win rate)

 

[jakez4ut]

Yep, KB, because Michigan wasn't broke the way Tennessee was broke. Not in talent on board, not in relationships with the high school coaches they needed to recruit from, not in relationships with boosters, or with alumni, former coaches, the community, none of that.

.

agreed.:thumbsup:

 

[VFL-82-JP]

True.

NFC champ vs. Outback Champ would be a better comparison.

Agreed. And there Harbaugh wins.

Not saying Harbaugh isn't a good coach; he is.

He's just not elite. Good, and pretty strongly over-hyped. The dude is being paid more than Saban and Meyer, for goodness sake...both multi-national championship coaches.

So yeah, he's good. Not worth what he's being paid.

 

[jakez4ut]

True.

NFC champ vs. Outback Champ would be a better comparison.

lol...well played....

 

[BeecherVol]

either way, no way to know. i tend to believe that he would not have been fired, simply because there was an active AD and Chancellor search going on, i don't get the notion, from how well we did at handling all that, that adding the HFC search on the pile would have been desirable.

i will say this, lose the FL game and the season go like it did, there would be no divide in the fan base as to what we all think should happen.:thumbsup:

Yeah, ifs and buts.....

The second half of the UF game helped the perception with many about the season. Had the second half gone like the first there would have been at least one change that would have happened quicker than it did.

 

[BeecherVol]

Agreed. And there Harbaugh wins.

Not saying Harbaugh isn't a good coach; he is.

He's just not elite. Good, and pretty strongly over-hyped. The dude is being paid more than Saban and Meyer, for goodness sake...both multi-national championship coaches.

So yeah, he's good. Not worth what he's being paid.

To this point, I agree with him not being elite at Michigan. But I doubt they would swap.

 

[jakez4ut]

Yeah, ifs and buts.....

The second half of the UF game helped the perception with many about the season. Had the second half gone like the first there would have been at least one change that would have happened quicker than it did.

it's all we got right now. lol:

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

How to become a journalist today:

Get clicks.

How to get clicks.

(1) Pick a question that can only be answered by opinion.
(2) Give a detailed, but provocative and divisive, opinion (or series of opinions).
(3) Release to the internet.

Maybe I can become a journalist. Over 5,000 page views so far. Not bad for the NewB that started 2 threads about Megatron's Butthole!

 

[BeardedVol]

Dude, Wylo, do you football?

22-29 is a 43% win rate. 30-21 is a 59% win rate. That is a HUGE difference in success, given that almost all coaches ride between 25% and 75% lifetime.

Having said that, the guy you're responding to is wrong: Butch is actually 80-48 as a head coach. I mean, he counted every HC job Orgeron had, it's only fair to do the same with Butch.

(80-48 is a 62.5% win rate)

Butch's win percentage, both overall and conference, has decreased at every step up in conference...

CMU
Overall: 67.5% Conference: 87.5%

Cincinnati
Overall: 62.2% Conference: 57.1%

Tennessee
Overall: 58.8% Conference: 43.8%

His numbers are padded by his high level of success at CMU, and his moderate success at Cincinnati, both using Brian Kelly's recruits. Just like some of you want to give Butch a pass for his 1st and 2nd years because he had to play with Dooley's bare cupboard, a portion of his success at previous stops has to be given to Kelly for his recruiting as well.

The worst part though is that CBJ's biggest drop in win percentage has been in conference play, which is ultimately what is going to get him fired. John Currie is not going to risk his own job by letting CBJ sit around making 4 million+ a year with a sub .500 record in the SEC.

 

[BeecherVol]

it's all we got right now. lol:

Correct

 

[KBVol]

Yep, KB, because Michigan wasn't broke the way Tennessee was broke. Not in talent on board, not in relationships with the high school coaches they needed to recruit from, not in relationships with boosters, or with alumni, former coaches, the community, none of that.

Harbaugh may have started below par at Michigan, but Butch had to start below sea level.

That's why I like comparing where they are today...because if you compare them both from their own starting lines, they're at totally different places.

Couldn't respectfully disagree more. All that is subjective. Even a new head coach who comes into a fairly decent situation needs time to clean up the roster, implement his system and culture.

Was Michigan in as bad shape when Harbaugh took over as Tennessee was when Jones got the job? I don't believe so, but I'm a Tennessee fan and know what was going on here....could it be that things were nearly as awful at Michigan where they'd just gone 12-13 the previous 2 seasons? I mean, all I hear about is how ridiculously easy a typical Michigan and Big 10 schedule always is.....they couldn't even get to .500? Must've been a grease fire up there.

If Harbaugh didn't have the outstanding track record of great success at every level, no matter where he'd coached, then I'd maybe agree. But the guy has proven he can thrive in whatever coaching situation he's found himself in.....and while Jones nominally improved Tennessee in his first two seasons from 10-14 the previous two seasons to 12-13, Harbaugh greatly improved Michigan from 12-13 to 20-6. That's a huge difference. There's simply zero doubt that Harbaugh is a much better coach than Jones imho.

 

[VolFreakJosh]

Yeah, I think he means the Hugh Freeze who's beaten Alabama 2 of the last 3 years.....same Freeze who had his team ranked #3 in the country a couple years ago.

Also, OleMiss played without their senior starting qb last year when they lost to Vandy.....we had ours when we lost to the Commodores.

Freeze is nothing but a scumbag who obviously has been cheating ever since he stepped foot at Ole Miss. Not sure he really deserves any recognition.

 

[orangeluvr]

Everyone on that list but Orgeron is better than Jones.

Didn't EO get fired at ole miss? Lousy record and shady recruiting practices.

 

[BeecherVol]

Freeze is nothing but a scumbag who obviously has been cheating ever since he stepped foot at Ole Miss. Not sure he really deserves any recognition.

He's substantially dumber at cheating than everybody else.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Butch's win percentage, both overall and conference, has decreased at every step up in conference...

CMU
Overall: 67.5% Conference: 87.5%

Cincinnati
Overall: 62.2% Conference: 57.1%

Tennessee
Overall: 58.8% Conference: 43.8%

His numbers are padded by his high level of success at CMU, and his moderate success at Cincinnati, both using Brian Kelly's recruits. Just like some of you want to give Butch a pass for his 1st and 2nd years because he had to play with Dooley's bare cupboard, a portion of his success at previous stops has to be given to Kelly for his recruiting as well.

The worst part though is that CBJ's biggest drop in win percentage has been in conference play, which is ultimately what is going to get him fired. John Currie is not going to risk his own job by letting CBJ sit around making 4 million+ a year with a sub .500 record in the SEC.

Butch's worst 2 years at Cincy and CMU was the first (12-14 record). I stll think Butch hasnt proven he's more than average but the Brian Kelly rationale is flawed.

 

[jakez4ut]

Butch's win percentage, both overall and conference, has decreased at every step up in conference...

CMU
Overall: 67.5% Conference: 87.5%

Cincinnati
Overall: 62.2% Conference: 57.1%

Tennessee
Overall: 58.8% Conference: 43.8%

His numbers are padded by his high level of success at CMU, and his moderate success at Cincinnati, both using Brian Kelly's recruits. Just like some of you want to give Butch a pass for his 1st and 2nd years because he had to play with Dooley's bare cupboard, a portion of his success at previous stops has to be given to Kelly for his recruiting as well.

The worst part though is that CBJ's biggest drop in win percentage has been in conference play, which is ultimately what is going to get him fired. John Currie is not going to risk his own job by letting CBJ sit around making 4 million+ a year with a sub .500 record in the SEC.

i'll buy that. while also saying i think Butch has proven that he's a solid recruiter at the same time, and that he was on Kelly's staff, he probably at least played a part in bringing those kids in to CMU and CIN. so it's not quite apples/apples to what he walked in to here, i get what you're saying.

 

[Doberman]

Couldn't respectfully disagree more. All that is subjective. Even a new head coach who comes into a fairly decent situation needs time to clean up the roster, implement his system and culture.

Was Michigan in as bad shape when Harbaugh took over as Tennessee was when Jones got the job? I don't believe so, but I'm a Tennessee fan and know what was going on here....could it be that things were nearly as awful at Michigan where they'd just gone 12-13 the previous 2 seasons? I mean, all I hear about is how ridiculously easy a typical Michigan and Big 10 schedule always is.....they couldn't even get to .500? Must've been a grease fire up there.

If Harbaugh didn't have the outstanding track record of great success at every level, no matter where he'd coached, then I'd maybe agree. But the guy has proven he can thrive in whatever coaching situation he's found himself in.....and while Jones nominally improved Tennessee in his first two seasons from 10-14 the previous two seasons to 12-13, Harbaugh greatly improved Michigan from 12-13 to 20-6. That's a huge difference. There's simply zero doubt that Harbaugh is a much better coach than Jones imho.

100%

Everyone forgets the "he hasn't even had 3 full recruiting cycles to get his players" angle that we love to trot out when it's our guy.

We hold others to standards we won't impose on our own.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

In his second year as head coach, Jim Harbaugh had 11 players drafted. In a single draft. Those aren't guys he recruited; that's the situation he inherited.

How many did Butch have drafted after his second season? What did Butch inherit?

There's simply no comparison between the two starting points.

If you ignore all the other massive differences in situation between Michigan at Harbaugh's arrival and Tennessee at Jones', you should at least carefully consider that.

 

[Ace]

Couldn't respectfully disagree more. All that is subjective. Even a new head coach who comes into a fairly decent situation needs time to clean up the roster, implement his system and culture.

Was Michigan in as bad shape when Harbaugh took over as Tennessee was when Jones got the job? I don't believe so, but I'm a Tennessee fan and know what was going on here....could it be that things were nearly as awful at Michigan where they'd just gone 12-13 the previous 2 seasons? I mean, all I hear about is how ridiculously easy a typical Michigan and Big 10 schedule always is.....they couldn't even get to .500? Must've been a grease fire up there.

If Harbaugh didn't have the outstanding track record of great success at every level, no matter where he'd coached, then I'd maybe agree. But the guy has proven he can thrive in whatever coaching situation he's found himself in.....and while Jones nominally improved Tennessee in his first two seasons from 10-14 the previous two seasons to 12-13, Harbaugh greatly improved Michigan from 12-13 to 20-6. That's a huge difference. There's simply zero doubt that Harbaugh is a much better coach than Jones imho.

CJH had the advantage of Hoke being a better recruiter than Dooley. The same Dooley who signed zero offensive linemen in his last class.

 

[Ace]

In his second year as head coach, Jim Harbaugh had 11 players drafted. In a single draft. Those aren't guys he recruited; that's the situation he inherited.

How many did Butch have drafted after his second season? What did Butch inherit?

There's simply no comparison between the two starting points.

If you ignore all the other massive differences in situation between Michigan at Harbaugh's arrival and Tennessee at Jones', you should at least carefully consider that.

Correct

 

[Doberman]

In his second year as head coach, Jim Harbaugh had 11 players drafted. In a single draft. Those aren't guys he recruited; that's the situation he inherited.

How many did Butch have drafted after his second season? What did Butch inherit?

There's simply no comparison between the two starting points.

If you ignore all the other massive differences in situation between Michigan at Harbaugh's arrival and Tennessee at Jones', you should at least carefully consider that.

Yeah, it'll never be a perfectly tit for tat comparison.

Harbaugh is just better than Jones. It's like porn, you know it when you see it.

That's enough for me.