Are there really 51 Power 5 coaches better than Butch?

[Smokey'sHandler]

http://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...ach-rankings-power-five-coaches-ranked-65-26/

52 Volunteers

Butch Jones (33 2016 ranking): A Champion of Life, but not a champion of our rankings. Still, in my opinion, this is a pretty steep drop considering all the injuries Tennessee dealt with last year. Raised expectations will do that, though.


I'm not the biggest Butch cheerleader but it's crazy that he's behind a guy such as Ed Orgeron.

Let me know if you think this ranking is too high, too low, or just right. Without seeing the Top 25, I'd have Butch in the 25-35 range for Power 5 coaches.

There's nothing you can take from this list rather than a guy who has a hat full of names that he picks out randomly.

Three names that are laughably ahead of Butch on this list:

1.) Kevin Sumlin - No one has squandered away more talent and expectations than this guy. 5* QBs, 5* WRs, 5* D-Lineman and the dude can win only 8 games. He's started every season since what seems like 2000 at 5-0 and tanks every year.

2.) Hugh Freeze - Yet another dude who squandered away a ton of talent when he had it. Dude has had one 10 win season with amazing talent and just went 5-7 this last year.

3.) Ed Orgeron - Dude has done nothing worthy as a permanent head coach. He is 22-29 as a head coach. Butch by the way is 30-21.

Did we under perform to our expectations last year? yes. Did we have two losses that still sting? yes. Did we still have a solid year with all of the adversity that we went through last year? yes. We have a good coach that has brought us out of some dark times and brought us back to having the type of high expectations we were accustomed to in the Fulmer days. He is easily top 30-35 in this list.

 

[ImportedVoL]

Everyone on that list but Orgeron is better than Jones.

Volnation's IQ just dropped due to this post..

To take a broken team and get them back to winning in the SEC is no small feat...just because a injury ridden roster lost 2 they shouldnt have, does not change what he has done for UT.

I hope God does not judge you as harshly as you judge others.

 

[99gator]

Incorrect. Granted, some of the teams not at high water mark, but any time you play UF, UGA, TaM, Bama, without cup cakes or an off week in between, it's going to take a toll...and it did. I believe all were at one time or another during the season ranked in top 10-15

Don't know any other team that had this sort of scheduling. Though this year schedule, as a whole, no less challenging, I think we'll get some benefit from spacing b/t big games. Whether we take advantage or not is another story...

I'll say this. Given the same schedule, Michigan doesn't fall behind Florida 21-0, need a Hail Mary to beat Georgia, turn the ball over 7 times against A&M, and get beat by 39 at home to Alabama.

And again, while you off have games where you don't bring your "A" game, which game did Tennessee bring its "A" game.

They brought it for halves, quarters, etc, but not 60 minutes

 

[edyeary]

I actually think Butch will climb the list over the next few years. If he can keep solid assistants, recruit well, and be a leader of men he will be successful. Like it or not the guy has been learning on the job, and if you look at his current staff... I'd have to argue he's also making progress. Would love Dabo 2.0, he may not get there, but his ceiling is much higher than 52.

LEARNING ON THE JOB. I've thought this from day one. Huge learning curve moving up to the SEC.

 

[njvols]

I'll say this. Given the same schedule, Michigan doesn't fall behind Florida 21-0, need a Hail Mary to beat Georgia, turn the ball over 7 times against A&M, and get beat by 39 at home to Alabama.

And again, while you off have games where you don't bring your "A" game, which game did Tennessee bring its "A" game.

They brought it for halves, quarters, etc, but not 60 minutes

You say Michigan wouldn't have had results as UT, yet they lost to Iowa...and Ohio St. But, then again, I don't remember comparing UT/Mich...I was comparing UT and SEC. I'd contend that the top 3-4 teams in SEC could roll thru that schedule with the same record...and don't see that 4 game gauntlet. Agree w/ 1/2 game performances...didn't say they weren't frustrating, but W/L's are all that counts...just like UF...may not pass the eye test, but 2 sec E championships last two years are something UT would like to have.

 

[bamawriter]

You say Michigan wouldn't have had results as UT, yet they lost to Iowa...and Ohio St. But, then again, I don't remember comparing UT/Mich...I was comparing UT and SEC. I'd contend that the top 3-4 teams in SEC could roll thru that schedule with the same record...

Not last year. Outside of Bama, the entire SEC took a massive step back in 2016. It was a lousy year for the conference.

 

[jakez4ut]

2-2 against Vandy, also 2-2 against UGA. 1-3 against FL. 3-1 vs. usce. 4-0 vs. KY, 2-2 vs MO. 14-10 against the East in total. 0-8 against the West. 14-18 SEC record. 3-0 in bowls.

the last two years, against the East, he's 1-1 vandy, 2-0 UGA, 1-1 FL, 2-0 KY, 2-0 MO, 1-1 USCe, 9-3 against the East. 0-4 against west, 9-7 total. 2-0 in bowls.

the problem with butch is you can't have one w/out the other. there's always something, good and bad, hence the endless debate. beat USC and Vandy last year and he's 11-1 against the East the last two years, and this isn't much of a conversation. beat a&m and Ark, which were winnable games the last two years, and he's 13-3 overall in the SEC.

the trick for him at this point is to continue to build on the progress made in regards to GA and FL and bowls. but at some point he has to stop losing winnable games. period.

so you could either argue we're "close" or you could argue this is just the way it is, because it's the way it's been.

at any rate, there's a line of demarcation now. changes have been made, and if we still see the same pattern in performance and results going forward, there's just no other place to look.

everybody knows what happened, how and why, up to this point. the only question now is, does it continue, or does it change for the better as a result of the changes made?


the results speak for themselves, and there's really no debating what we let slip thru our fingers the last two seasons. there's also enough left on the table talent wise, enough going on in recruiting this cycle, and enough changes made to warrant some cautious optimism.

personally, i have my doubts. i just can't stand the overly declarative statements at this point, one way or the other. we just don't know how all this is going to gel in 2017. i can see 7-5 based on what recent history says we do, and the departures of some key players/leaders. i can see potential for 9-3, if we get a bunch of right answers to all the questions we have going in.

we'll find out.

 

[sjt18]

I am beginning to think that most on this board are really NOT VOL fans. Folks defend other schools just to bash the school they supposedly are a fan of.

Seriously? Just go root for someone else please.

Why? Because people are more realistic than you about what Jones has proven at UT?

I think he's ranked too low. There are guys who have underperformed worse that are higher on that list.

That said... even just a top half coach does not lose to USCe and Vandy with the East and then the Sugar Bowl on the line. A top half coach resolves the injury, development, and attrition issues by year 4. A top half coach doesn't go 0-3 against Muschamp with the last loss in spite of having much more talent across the board.

I am a VOL FAN. Not a fan of a particular coach or even player. I am a fan of coaches and players only in as much as they help UT win and run a great program. Jones is doing well on the second part. But he chokes WAY too often on the first part.

 

[Orange_Crush]

How to become a journalist today:

Get clicks.

How to get clicks.

(1) Pick a question that can only be answered by opinion.
(2) Give a detailed, but provocative and divisive, opinion (or series of opinions).
(3) Release to the internet.

 

[njvols]

2-2 against Vandy, also 2-2 against UGA. 1-3 against FL. 3-1 vs. usce. 4-0 vs. KY, 2-2 vs MO. 14-10 against the East in total. 0-8 against the West. 14-18 SEC record. 3-0 in bowls.

the last two years, against the East, he's 1-1 vandy, 2-0 UGA, 1-1 FL, 2-0 KY, 2-0 MO, 1-1 USCe, 9-3 against the East. 0-4 against west, 9-7 total. 2-0 in bowls.

the problem with butch is you can't have one w/out the other. there's always something, good and bad, hence the endless debate. beat USC and Vandy last year and he's 11-1 against the East the last two years, and this isn't much of a conversation. beat a&m and Ark, which were winnable games the last two years, and he's 13-3 overall in the SEC.

the trick for him at this point is to continue to build on the progress made in regards to GA and FL and bowls. but at some point he has to stop losing winnable games. period.

so you could either argue we're "close" or you could argue this is just the way it is, because it's the way it's been.

at any rate, there's a line of demarcation now. changes have been made, and if we still see the same pattern in performance and results going forward, there's just no other place to look.

everybody knows what happened, how and why, up to this point. the only question now is, does it continue, or does it change for the better as a result of the changes made?


the results speak for themselves, and there's really no debating what we let slip thru our fingers the last two seasons. there's also enough left on the table talent wise, enough going on in recruiting this cycle, and enough changes made to warrant some cautious optimism.

personally, i have my doubts. i just can't stand the overly declarative statements at this point, one way or the other. we just don't know how all this is going to gel in 2017. i can see 7-5 based on what recent history says we do, and the departures of some key players/leaders. i can see potential for 9-3, if we get a bunch of right answers to all the questions we have going in.

we'll find out.

Agree with everything you write. Problem is, good or bad, is we're in that middle ground. 18 wins over past two years isn't enough to fire a coach over, but it's also not good enough for expectations. It's the off season, so, I have my orange colored glasses on...

 

[jakez4ut]

Agree with everything you write. Problem is, good or bad, is we're in that middle ground. 18 wins over past two years isn't enough to fire a coach over, but it's also not good enough for expectations. It's the off season, so, I have my orange colored glasses on...

that's fine, and while i have my doubts, i'm trying to find ways this could turn out better than it's been.

to me, at this point, the only decision to be made as a fan, is to harp on the past and all the how's why's etc...or look at what's happened in regards to the changes that have been made, what we have now talent wise and coaching wise, and how could that translate to success?

again, it's not really debatable in my mind what has led us to the results we've gotten the last 4 years....the last 2 more specifically.

it's completely debatable what will happen next. just have to choose which way you want to look at it.

 

[BigBadVol]

2-2 against Vandy, also 2-2 against UGA. 1-3 against FL. 3-1 vs. usce. 4-0 vs. KY, 2-2 vs MO. 14-10 against the East in total. 0-8 against the West. 14-18 SEC record. 3-0 in bowls.

the last two years, against the East, he's 1-1 vandy, 2-0 UGA, 1-1 FL, 2-0 KY, 2-0 MO, 1-1 USCe, 9-3 against the East. 0-4 against west, 9-7 total. 2-0 in bowls.

the problem with butch is you can't have one w/out the other. there's always something, good and bad, hence the endless debate. beat USC and Vandy last year and he's 11-1 against the East the last two years, and this isn't much of a conversation. beat a&m and Ark, which were winnable games the last two years, and he's 13-3 overall in the SEC.

the trick for him at this point is to continue to build on the progress made in regards to GA and FL and bowls. but at some point he has to stop losing winnable games. period.

so you could either argue we're "close" or you could argue this is just the way it is, because it's the way it's been.

at any rate, there's a line of demarcation now. changes have been made, and if we still see the same pattern in performance and results going forward, there's just no other place to look.

everybody knows what happened, how and why, up to this point. the only question now is, does it continue, or does it change for the better as a result of the changes made?


the results speak for themselves, and there's really no debating what we let slip thru our fingers the last two seasons. there's also enough left on the table talent wise, enough going on in recruiting this cycle, and enough changes made to warrant some cautious optimism.

personally, i have my doubts. i just can't stand the overly declarative statements at this point, one way or the other. we just don't know how all this is going to gel in 2017. i can see 7-5 based on what recent history says we do, and the departures of some key players/leaders. i can see potential for 9-3, if we get a bunch of right answers to all the questions we have going in.

we'll find out.

This is one of the best post regarding CBJ that I have read on here. Very concise and astute among the useless diatribes we see here.

 

[jakez4ut]

Not last year. Outside of Bama, the entire SEC took a massive step back in 2016. It was a lousy year for the conference.

agreed.

 

[jakez4ut]

This is one of the best post regarding CBJ that I have read on here. Very concise and astute among the useless diatribes we see here.

thanks. there's just too much change that's taken place this off season to say with so much certainty that history will repeat itself....or that it'll be great.

from this point forward, basically the only constant is CBJ.

it's his program. so, good or bad, it's on him. and with the all the changes, i'm just less hung up on the past. i know what happened, how, and why. it's the reason i have serious doubts. but new players, basically a brand new staff...to me, trying to compare the potential futures of what teams 121+ will be compared to 119 or 120 were....

just doesn't make much sense to me, until we see what it looks like. then we'll know one way or the other.

most all of us widely acknowledge there were position coaches that needed to be addressed. they were. so let's see what it looks like. he either made good decisions or bad ones.

year 1.2, BSIA version 2.0.

but i'll just leave it at this...i'll be a lot less surprised with a 7-5 record this year, than i would be with a 9-3 or better record. so even with the changes, that's where my confidence level is, so take it for what it's worth.

 

[KBVol]

I'm sorry, Nash, but those are the only two years that Butch coached Tennessee while Harbaugh coached Michigan. They are the two years we have.

Not gonna go back and compare Butch's years at Cincinnati with Harbaugh's years at San Diego or anything like that.

We got 2015 and 2016. Soon, we'll see about 2017. I'm looking forward to it, how about you?

That's the wrong comparison JP. You're saying Harbaugh should be as far along in building back Michigan's program in his first and second years as Jones is in rebuilding Tennessee in his 3rd and 4th years?

 

[Wylo]

Saban tier:
Nick Saban

Elite tier (the rest of the active coaches with NCs):
Urban Meyer
Jimbo Fisher
Dabo Swinney
Bob Stoops (although he's probably closer to "Very Good," I'm including him because having a NC is so rare among active coaches now)

Very good tier:
David Shaw
Jim Harbaugh
Gary Patterson
Chris Petersen
Bobby Petrino

Good tier:
About 30 coaches who are basically interchangeable, including Butch Jones

This sounds about right.

 

[KBVol]

i love y'all, but sometimes this board gets stuck on stupid.

There is no comparison between Butch and Harbaugh.

None.

10-3 in year 1 due in part to a botched punt snap debacle against Michigan State.

10-3 in year 2. A 1 point loss on the road, a 2ot loss on the road, and a 1 point loss to FSU in Miami (essentially on the road).

And it's amazing how we like to change our argument when it suits our purpose. Florida, Georgia and Nebraska suck. Va Tech is overrated being in the weak division of the ACC. This kind of thing has been stated repeatedly. But, when it's time to count up quality wins for Butch Jones, all of a sudden those teams are pretty good.

100% spot on.

 

[volfanecs]

How to become a journalist today:

Get clicks.

How to get clicks.

(1) Pick a question that can only be answered by opinion.
(2) Give a detailed, but provocative and divisive, opinion (or series of opinions).
(3) Release to the internet.

Or to be a member of VN.

 

[KBVol]

Let's settle this.

Who would swap Harbaugh for Jones today, straight up?

I'll count me as one. Emphatically.

Count me as 2. His resume is light years better than Butch's. It's not remotely close.

 

[volfanecs]

Actually 52, but CPF has retired.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

That's the wrong comparison JP. You're saying Harbaugh should be as far along in building back Michigan's program in his first and second years as Jones is in rebuilding Tennessee in his 3rd and 4th years?

Yep, KB, because Michigan wasn't broke the way Tennessee was broke. Not in talent on board, not in relationships with the high school coaches they needed to recruit from, not in relationships with boosters, or with alumni, former coaches, the community, none of that.

Harbaugh may have started below par at Michigan, but Butch had to start below sea level.

That's why I like comparing where they are today...because if you compare them both from their own starting lines, they're at totally different places.

 

[Wylo]

Harbaugh is 20-6, back to back 10-3 seasons at Michigan.....took over a program that was 12-13 the two seasons preceding him. Would Jones be considered "explosive" if he'd have come in and posted back to back 10-3 seasons in an awful SECe?

Add what he's doing at Michigan to the list of outstanding accomplishments on his resume imo. You've gotta be going out of your way to not see his success at every level he's coached at.

This. Harbaugh is and always will be in a different stratosphere than Butch. Super bowl vs. Outback bowl? About as wide a gap as Harbaugh vs. Jones.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

This. Harbaugh is and always will be in a different stratosphere than Butch. Super bowl vs. Outback bowl? About as wide a gap as Harbaugh vs. Jones.

Hmm, super bowl LOSS versus outback bowl WIN.

Always take the win. Bigger wins can follow later.

Harbaugh's a brides maid so far. As KB pointed out, Butch isn't even that yet. Perhaps neither of them ever get to be the bride. Time will tell.

 

[Behr]

That's the wrong comparison JP. You're saying Harbaugh should be as far along in building back Michigan's program in his first and second years as Jones is in rebuilding Tennessee in his 3rd and 4th years?

With the praise Harbaugh gets compared to the criticism Jones gets, yes!

 

[Wylo]

3.) Ed Orgeron - Dude has done nothing worthy as a permanent head coach. He is 22-29 as a head coach. Butch by the way is 30-21.

So Butch is all of 8 games better than a guy you say has "done nothing worthy as a permanent head coach" and you are proud of Butch?


Awesome.