Are Old Testament Stories Allegory or Literal History?

#177
#177
hog88 said:
This thread is a perfect example of why this country's future is ****ed.

We have real issues, real problems and no leaders yet the biggest discussions are about a ****ing book! The newstainment industry and political elite win again.
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You may not have noticed it yet, but there's hundreds of other threads on this forum addressing those very issues you just laid out. And big ones too!
 
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#182
#182
The Ron Mexico said:
God commanded the whale, or great fish, whatever, not to eat and digest him. How do you not get this?
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:eek:hmy:

Oh well, since you put it that way, now it makes complete sense. See all us folks were thinking that the laws of nature were completely suspended by random chance, turns out it was just magical request from the big guy.

How did we not get this?
 
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#183
#183
ClearwaterVol said:
I think the disconnect in your logic is to say that both sides are equally plausible. I can prove that a human cannot live in the belly of a whale with relative ease. I cannot prove a miracle did not happen, with respect to Jonah, but even you would agree that the existence of a miracle is far less likely scenario than what is an ordinarily expected result that has the ability to be proven repeatedly.
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Still doesnt mean that miracle didnt happen.
 
#184
#184
Septic said:
:eek:hmy:

Oh well, since you put it that way, now it makes complete sense. See all us folks were thinking that the laws of nature were completely suspended by random chance, turns out it was just magical request from the big guy.

How did we not get this?
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Easy. God created the laws. You deny that God exists. Ergo, you and those who believe like you dont get it :)
 
#186
#186
Septic said:
:eek:hmy:

Oh well, since you put it that way, now it makes complete sense. See all us folks were thinking that the laws of nature were completely suspended by random chance, turns out it was just magical request from the big guy.

How did we not get this?
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Darn you god, doing these god things. It would be so much easier to believe in god if he'd stop demonstrating his power over nature.
 
#187
#187
Roustabout said:
Darn you god, doing these god things. It would be so much easier to believe in god if he'd stop demonstrating his power over nature.
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It's like no one hears themselves talking, Jonas fish, Noah's ark.... I suppose it's easier to say "god did it" things than it is to reconcile that some of the miracles in that book just didn't happen.

But to admit that would be to admit that a book written by scores of men over fifteen hundred years is flawed, that is something that would be internally inconsistent and damaging to have to reconcile with your faith.

a723funny-graph-miracles-frequency.jpg
 
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#188
#188
Septic said:
It's like no one hears themselves talking, Jonas fish, Noah's ark.... I suppose it's easier to say "god did it" things than it is to reconcile that some of the miracles in that book just didn't happen.

But to admit that would be to admit that a book written by scores of men over fifteen hundred years is flawed, that is something that would be internally inconsistent and damaging to have to reconcile with your faith.

a723funny-graph-miracles-frequency.jpg
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Not my point at all.
The point is this. If the first miracle is true (creation ex nihilo) then all other recorded miracles are plausible. Whether an account is allegory or metaphor is another argument.
One can't dismiss God because the Bible claims a supernatural event. The resurrection is a 100% supernatural event.

The purpose for undermining Noah or Jonah is ultimately to undermine the resurrection itself.
 
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#189
#189
Roustabout said:
Not my point at all.
The point is this. If the first miracle is true (creation ex nihilo) then all other recorded miracles are plausible. Whether an account is allegory or metaphor is another argument.
One can't dismiss God because the Bible claims a supernatural event. The resurrection is a 100% supernatural event.

The purpose for undermining Noah or Jonah is ultimately to undermine the resurrection itself.
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Maybe in your mind. I rarely consider the same two books of scripture in the same thought.
 
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#190
#190
Roustabout said:
Not my point at all.
The point is this. If the first miracle is true (creation ex nihilo) then all other recorded miracles are plausible. Whether an account is allegory or metaphor is another argument.
One can't dismiss God because the Bible claims a supernatural event. The resurrection is a 100% supernatural event.

The purpose for undermining Noah or Jonah is ultimately to undermine the resurrection itself.
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I hear you, once one takes the first leap into the chasm of 'faith', one has no further intellectual responsibility to themselves to try and reconcile that sh|t doesn't add up.

I don't get it, but I hear what you're saying.
 
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#191
#191
The natural mind cannot understand the mind of God, it is foolish to them, as it has shown in this thread.


1 Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
 
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#192
#192
Gramps said:
The natural mind cannot understand the mind of God, it is foolish to them, as it has shown in this thread.


1 Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
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Good to see you again bro. :thumbsup:


Oh, and that scripture seems to cause ripples around here.
 
#194
#194
Gramps said:
The natural mind cannot understand the mind of God, it is foolish to them, as it has shown in this thread.


1 Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
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Nothing in that scripture suggests "the natural mind cannot understand the mind of God", read logically.
 
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#195
#195
Septic said:
I hear you, once one takes the first leap into the chasm of 'faith', one has no further intellectual responsibility to themselves to try and reconcile that sh|t doesn't add up.

I don't get it, but I hear what you're saying.
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Once again, you exhibit that you aren't the least bit interstefed in a genuine dialogie.
 
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#196
#196
Roustabout said:
Once again, you exhibit that you aren't the least bit interstefed in a genuine dialogie.
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One side thinks that "miracles" cannot exist because these are merely the results of natural laws (not even chance) but which we can't wrap our heads around.

The other side thinks that "miracles" exist and are the result of divine intervention.

There's no "genuine dialogue" to be had here. The two sides are so philosophically at odds that common ground is incapable of being established. Let's all just be honest with ourselves: we just like posting so we can "hear" our own "voices." That's typically the only reason why I post in these threads at least.
 
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#198
#198
volprof said:
One side thinks that "miracles" cannot exist because these are merely the results of natural laws (not even chance) but which we can't wrap our heads around.

The other side thinks that "miracles" exist and are the result of divine intervention.

There's no "genuine dialogue" to be had here. The two sides are so philosophically at odds that common ground is incapable of being established. Let's all just be honest with ourselves: we just like posting so we can "hear" our own "voices." That's typically the only reason why I post in these threads at least.
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I disagree. Intelligent discussions occur on these subjects with people who hold different positions. I've watched several debates on the issue. The subject of miracles is much written upon, and perhaps i'm wrong, but i question whether Septic has given the subject much study. From my position, i'm open to a discussion the OP brought up. Are these miracles actual, or are they the result of allegory? So, discarding the veracity of the bible or the existance of God becasue miracles defy natural explanation is ridiculous since the definiation of a miracle is that which could not be naturally explained.

Let's take Septic's meme for example. It's just flat wrong. Miracles, as recorded in the bible, aren't a common occurance. They are rare. They are also tied to specific events and time. The bible never presents miracles as arbitrary or random events. They are purposeful and usually to confirm a prophet or prophecy.
 
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#199
#199
Roustabout said:
I disagree. Intelligent discussions occur on these subjects with people who hold different positions. I've watched several debates on the issue. The subject of miracles is much written upon, and perhaps i'm wrong, but i question whether Septic has given the subject much study. From my position, i'm open to a discussion the OP brought up. Are these miracles actual, or are they the result of allegory? So, discarding the veracity of the bible or the existance of God becasue miracles defy natural explanation is ridiculous since the definiation of a miracle is that which could not be naturally explained.
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It's probably worthy of note that belief in miracles is not a disbelief in natural laws since natural laws are implied in the definition of miracles.
 
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