Premiere League & World Soccer Thread

[NorCalVol67]

Also, lol at Spurs being allowed to “graduate” to a European Super League when they haven’t even won their current league in 60 years.

As a Spurs fan, I agree

 

[05_never_again]

But would you not also be irate if Tennessee permanently stopped playing all of our traditional SEC rivals because of a blatant cash grab?

This is well said by Gary Neville, and almost exactly sums up my thoughts. If the six English clubs don’t walk this back quickly (and I kind of think they will given the near-universal condemnation) I hope the FA takes action to at least dock them points this season if not far harsher penalties.

That isn't what is happening here though, correct? The EPL clubs would still all play each other in the EPL. The Super League is a threat to the existence of the Champions League, not the domestic leagues.

The analogy to college football would be if Alabama, LSU, Georgia, and Florida broke away to play in an additional league with schools like Ohio St, Oklahoma, etc. They'd still play us, Auburn, etc. in an SEC regular season but they'd also have this "Super League" they played in with big teams from other conferences.

 

[05_never_again]

What is it exactly that has people up in arms about a Super League? I find the whole "it's greed and they want more money" argument to be obnoxious. I mean, any professional sports league is trying to make money. Who cares.

Is it the fact that this Super League would be an invitation-only league with no promotion/relegation?

 

[MAD]

What is it exactly that has people up in arms about a Super League? I find the whole "it's greed and they want more money" argument to be obnoxious. I mean, any professional sports league is trying to make money. Who cares.

Is it the fact that this Super League would be an invitation-only league with no promotion/relegation?

Yes exactly. For people who don’t know, There is whole structure in place. Different divisions. You can get promoted or relegated to another division depending on your performance. The top 4 teams qualified for the Champions league. The whole pyramid and history of English football, European football, world football is at stake. No benefit for the Super League teams to finish in the top 4 anymore, they will treat it more like the EF cup if they are even allowed to stay in the league and save their best players for the Super League.

 

[05_never_again]

Yes exactly. For people who don’t know, There is whole structure in place. Different divisions. You can get promoted or relegated to another division depending on your performance. The top 4 teams qualified for the Champions league. The whole pyramid and history of English football, European football, world football is at stake. No benefit for the Super League teams to finish in the top 4 anymore, they will treat it more like the EF cup if they are even allowed to stay in the league and save their best players for the Super League.

I think that depends upon how any Super League is received and valued by fans. That competition, or any competition, doesn't have prestige just because the people who put it together say so. It'll be seen as a valuable thing to win if it is perceived that way by players, fans, the media, etc. And if it isn't seen as valuable, then it also makes less money.

If nobody likes this league (and the early reaction has been unfriendly, to put it mildly), thinks it is stupid and antithetical to the sport because of no promo/relegation, teams will not ascribe much value to it.

 

[MAD]

From what I’m hearing, this is just a power move to put pressure on Uefa. How can you call it a Super League if some of the biggest teams in Europe refused to break off with the 12 teams? It will become like boxing with different titles and never having a true champion.

 

[bleedorange0037]

That isn't what is happening here though, correct? The EPL clubs would still all play each other in the EPL. The Super League is a threat to the existence of the Champions League, not the domestic leagues.

The analogy to college football would be if Alabama, LSU, Georgia, and Florida broke away to play in an additional league with schools like Ohio St, Oklahoma, etc. They'd still play us, Auburn, etc. in an SEC regular season but they'd also have this "Super League" they played in with big teams from other conferences.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I just can’t see a scenario where six clubs join a league specifically intended to both usurp the CL and bar other English teams from participating and them not being expelled from the Premier League.

Edit: Actually I can. It takes 15 votes to kick a team out. Hence the reason Spurs were extended an invitation.

 

[05_never_again]

Maybe I’m wrong, but I just can’t see a scenario where six clubs join a league specifically intended to both usurp the CL and bar other English teams from participating and them not being expelled from the Premier League.

Edit: Actually I can. It takes 15 votes to kick a team out. Hence the reason Spurs were extended an invitation.

They'd never expel those 6 clubs from the Premier League. They are the cash cow. As far as barring other English teams from participating I think they are trying to throw them a bone with the concept of having 5 spots being decided on some kind of qualifying mechanism (for a total of 20 teams). However the 15 founding clubs are in no matter what, so that idea is going over horribly.

This seems like an attempt to "Americanize" European soccer. Even 3 of the 5 people in leadership positions are Americans. Critics of this league need to drop the "I hate this because they're trying to make money" angle and attack it on the basis of no promotion/relegation, which European soccer is built on.

However, I am not sure how the Champions League is going to handle this. It absolutely is an existential threat to it. Say one year Man United, Man City, Tottenham, and Arsenal finish 1-4 in the EPL. There's no way they could or would play in both the CL and the Super League that year; they'll play in just the SL. So who goes to the CL from the EPL? The teams that finished 5-8? The same idea would repeat in La Liga and Serie A, except with their top 3 teams.

 

[Nash_Vol97]

What is it exactly that has people up in arms about a Super League? I find the whole "it's greed and they want more money" argument to be obnoxious. I mean, any professional sports league is trying to make money. Who cares.

Is it the fact that this Super League would be an invitation-only league with no promotion/relegation?

The biggest issue I have with it is cuts the legs out from any non-major soccer club to achieve greatness. Look at a team like Atalanta BC. Promoted to Series A in 2011 and in 2016 qualified for first Europa league in 26 years. 2 seasons later they qualified for the champions league and went all the way to the semi finals. They were also in the champions league this year finishing 2nd in their pool in group stage.

If the super league happens, these types of stories aren’t as special. Sure, the champions league may still be a thing but if the top clubs in football are all in the super league.. the champions league just isn’t as special. No way it can be if the champions league winner beats teams that are middle of the pack in their own domestic table because the top teams are all in the super league.

Also, I don’t like the idea of having the top teams play each other every year, multiple times a year. For instance, if Man City would have played Barcelona this year in champions league, every soccer fan in the world would be watching that. It’s a big game and it doesn’t happen very often. If they play multiple times a year.. the fascination of that game gets desensitized so to speak. It turns into just another game. Some may like this.. most futbol fans won’t.

 

[05_never_again]

Maybe I'm off, but it seems possible this idea gets killed off before it even gets off the ground. The reaction to this is universally negative, including the fans of the founding clubs. What if they don't want to even watch this? Ultimately the profitability of the league hinges on people wanting to watch the games and seeing it as a prestigious competition. If neither of those things happen, the league isn't viable.

 

[Nash_Vol97]

Boris Johnson made a statement saying he will make sure the Super League doesn’t happen.

 

[05_never_again]

Boris Johnson made a statement saying he will make sure the Super League doesn’t happen.

Political grandstanding. How in the hell would he do that? If he actually has the power to do that (which I don't see how he does), he should not have the power to do so.

 

[Nash_Vol97]

Maybe I'm off, but it seems possible this idea gets killed off before it even gets off the ground. The reaction to this is universally negative, including the fans of the founding clubs. What if they don't want to even watch this? Ultimately the profitability of the league hinges on people wanting to watch the games and seeing it as a prestigious competition. If neither of those things happen, the league isn't viable.

You’re not off. I don’t think it’ll happen either. This is a power grab and chess move. Some changes might come because of this to the Champions League, but that’s the most I think will happen.

 

[Nash_Vol97]

Political grandstanding. How in the hell would he do that? If he actually has the power to do that (which I don't see how he does), he should not have the power to do so.

Doubt he does. He said he would be working with the UEFA to make sure it doesn’t go as planned, at least in the format it’s in currently.

 

[05_never_again]

You’re not off. I don’t think it’ll happen either. This is a power grab and chess move. Some changes might come because of this to the Champions League, but that’s the most I think will happen.

Somebody on Sky Sports yesterday was trying to make the point that while the sentiment is universally negative at the moment, the appeal to a Manchester United fan, for example, to watch their team play Real Madrid in Old Trafford would still be pretty strong. However, as you said earlier, Man United/Real Madrid is a unique and special matchup because it hardly ever happens. If it began to happen with regularity as part of a Super League, and the newness wears off, and people don't like the idea behind the Super League anyway...you can see how the idea could end up flopping.

 

[05_never_again]

You’re not off. I don’t think it’ll happen either. This is a power grab and chess move. Some changes might come because of this to the Champions League, but that’s the most I think will happen.

What CL changes could come of it? Perhaps another group stage, where the top finishers of the big leagues enter the tournament later than they already do? Honestly, that seems fairly reasonable.

 

[Nash_Vol97]

What CL changes could come of it? Perhaps another group stage, where the top finishers of the big leagues enter the tournament later than they already do? Honestly, that seems fairly reasonable.

Not sure honestly. There is already a new model being proposed I believe that the will change the CL in 2024. This model will take away the group stage and it becomes a mini season of 10 games. There was also some qualification changes as well. This is a good article on the proposed changes.

The Swiss Model: What is the new Champions League format Bayern Munich supporters are protesting?

 

[05_never_again]

Not sure honestly. There is already a new model being proposed I believe that the will change the CL in 2024. This model will take away the group stage and it becomes a mini season of 10 games. There was also some qualification changes as well. This is a good article on the proposed changes.

The Swiss Model: What is the new Champions League format Bayern Munich supporters are protesting?

See, those proposed changes actually seem reasonable to me, but I've also gathered that those proposed changes were received very negatively as well. Hence the desire for a Super League (probably).

 

[ptclaus98]

What is it exactly that has people up in arms about a Super League? I find the whole "it's greed and they want more money" argument to be obnoxious. I mean, any professional sports league is trying to make money. Who cares.

Is it the fact that this Super League would be an invitation-only league with no promotion/relegation?

Why shouldn't Ohio State, Alabama, Clemson, FSU, Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, Florida, Auburn, LSU, Oregon, and USC form their own Super Conference? The rest of the teams in the Power 5 don't matter, those are the money teams. They can breakaway from the NCAA and run by their own rules, sign 30-35 players a year and let them market themselves and make money off their own brand on their own terms. The other teams around the country will still be able to play each other.


European soccer has run on the club structure for decades, it's every bit of the beauty of the sport. This will further damage that, as money gets consolidated into the hands of club owners who have poorly managed their mountains of money for the last decade. They want to create this league to keep themselves from going into debt when they should quit wasting resources on overrated players and invest in their own academies like the Germans do. Then on top of that the federations need to make sure the fans have a concrete say in how their clubs are ran or in 20 years somebody will want to move Tottenham to Dubai or some ****.

 

[ptclaus98]

They'd never expel those 6 clubs from the Premier League. They are the cash cow. As far as barring other English teams from participating I think they are trying to throw them a bone with the concept of having 5 spots being decided on some kind of qualifying mechanism (for a total of 20 teams). However the 15 founding clubs are in no matter what, so that idea is going over horribly.

This seems like an attempt to "Americanize" European soccer. Even 3 of the 5 people in leadership positions are Americans. Critics of this league need to drop the "I hate this because they're trying to make money" angle and attack it on the basis of no promotion/relegation, which European soccer is built on.

However, I am not sure how the Champions League is going to handle this. It absolutely is an existential threat to it. Say one year Man United, Man City, Tottenham, and Arsenal finish 1-4 in the EPL. There's no way they could or would play in both the CL and the Super League that year; they'll play in just the SL. So who goes to the CL from the EPL? The teams that finished 5-8? The same idea would repeat in La Liga and Serie A, except with their top 3 teams.

But the two are tied together, in that the reason they'd be making money is that they'd never be relegated.

 

[Nash_Vol97]

See, those proposed changes actually seem reasonable to me, but I've also gathered that those proposed changes were received very negatively as well. Hence the desire for a Super League (probably).

I don’t mind the changes personally. Most of the negativity to this was the extended schedule and amount of games it puts on a squad, especially smaller clubs. A major club like MC may be able to handle more games because they have more quality players even on the bench, while a smaller clubs will have more difficulty with the longer schedule.

The main issue with the current format of the UCL, in the eyes of major clubs at least, is the money. The major clubs right now can net around 100-120 million euros in prize money from winning the UCL. There is also money from just getting to the UCL, then money deals, etc. Each team gets some money from making it and the TV deals, and then the further you make it the more money you get.

The super league is supposedly being projected to be triple the prize money than the UCL. So a team could get UCL winners type money from just participating in the super league. This is why everyone is calling it greedy, etc.

Personally, yea it’s greedy, but it’s unfortunately a business too. That’s a lot of money. My main issue, and why I want the super league to fail, is was what I said in a previous post about desensitizing the big match ups and undercutting smaller clubs. Just my two cents.

 

[Nash_Vol97]

Why shouldn't Ohio State, Alabama, Clemson, FSU, Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, Florida, Auburn, LSU, Oregon, and USC form their own Super Conference? The rest of the teams in the Power 5 don't matter, those are the money teams. They can breakaway from the NCAA and run by their own rules, sign 30-35 players a year and let them market themselves and make money off their own brand on their own terms. The other teams around the country will still be able to play each other.


European soccer has run on the club structure for decades, it's every bit of the beauty of the sport. This will further damage that, as money gets consolidated into the hands of club owners who have poorly managed their mountains of money for the last decade. They want to create this league to keep themselves from going into debt when they should quit wasting resources on overrated players and invest in their own academies like the Germans do. Then on top of that the federations need to make sure the fans have a concrete say in how their clubs are ran or in 20 years somebody will want to move Tottenham to Dubai or some ****.

This all day. It’s no surprise that the most of the super leagues proposed teams are all hundreds of millions in debt.

 

[05_never_again]

Why shouldn't Ohio State, Alabama, Clemson, FSU, Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, Florida, Auburn, LSU, Oregon, and USC form their own Super Conference? The rest of the teams in the Power 5 don't matter, those are the money teams. They can breakaway from the NCAA and run by their own rules, sign 30-35 players a year and let them market themselves and make money off their own brand on their own terms. The other teams around the country will still be able to play each other.

They could do that, and I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with it. There isn't a great American analogy to this because all of our sports are smaller leagues with no promotion/relegation system (we couldn't have that even if we wanted to; there aren't any teams to promote).

The longer this marinates, I'm starting to see that the biggest problem I think people have with it is that it is a closed system. I think a lot of the arguments being espoused are overly emotional (e.g., "they're greedy," "it's all about money"). I do not think that is what those folks actually mean. The domestic leagues, the Champions League, etc., they are about money too. What they are really upset about is today's "big teams" (which can be different from tomorrow's "big teams") creating a league, and they will permanently be able to play in and benefit from that league without having to win their way into it. It is a sense of entitlement among the big clubs that they don't like, and they should fine-tune their argument to that effect because "the big clubs are trying to make money" just doesn't hit.

Those teams are free to create a Super League of course, but I see why fans all over Europe don't like it. It is pretty damning that even the fans of the founding clubs seem to hate it.

 

[05_never_again]

I don’t mind the changes personally. Most of the negativity to this was the extended schedule and amount of games it puts on a squad, especially smaller clubs. A major club like MC may be able to handle more games because they have more quality players even on the bench, while a smaller clubs will have more difficulty with the longer schedule.

The main issue with the current format of the UCL, in the eyes of major clubs at least, is the money. The major clubs right now can net around 100-120 million euros in prize money from winning the UCL. There is also money from just getting to the UCL, then money deals, etc. Each team gets some money from making it and the TV deals, and then the further you make it the more money you get.

The super league is supposedly being projected to be triple the prize money than the UCL. So a team could get UCL winners type money from just participating in the super league. This is why everyone is calling it greedy, etc.

Personally, yea it’s greedy, but it’s unfortunately a business too. That’s a lot of money. My main issue, and why I want the super league to fail, is was what I said in a previous post about desensitizing the big match ups and undercutting smaller clubs. Just my two cents.

The bolded seems somewhat presumptuous on the founding clubs' part, especially in light of the universal negative reaction to the Super League. If everybody hates and doesn't watch this Super League, even the founding club's own fans, they aren't going to get CL-type money from it. It won't be a prestigious league that people want to watch (and therefore makes gobs of money) just because the founding clubs say it is.

I enjoy European soccer, but I also don't have a club or any rooting interest whatsoever. So I'm kind of ambivalent about the whole thing. However I do see why people have a problem with it on the basis of it being antithetical to the promotion/relegation system, which the entire sport is built on.

 

[zeppelin128]

Yes exactly. For people who don’t know, There is whole structure in place. Different divisions. You can get promoted or relegated to another division depending on your performance. The top 4 teams qualified for the Champions league. The whole pyramid and history of English football, European football, world football is at stake. No benefit for the Super League teams to finish in the top 4 anymore, they will treat it more like the EF cup if they are even allowed to stay in the league and save their best players for the Super League.

This seems to be the biggest issue, at least on the various subreddits I follow. That this will "franchise" the sport akin to our pro leagues.