A Succinct Brief on the NCAA Woes.

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Blame lies at the feet of the controlling body. They SHOULD have prepared. The NCAA has had damn near 3 years to make some sort of rules. They declined in DEC to meet with UT directly. They really haven't done much at all except point fingers and play favorites. They had their opportunity to come to the table with the SEC, Big and other conferences. What steps forward have been taken ? They chose to ignore doing anything.
Now they want to punish schools for violations that were not in effect until 14 months later. Sit down wipe the slate clean with all schools and put some real rules in place that are good for everyone. Small schools will never compete with the Larger state schools. Allow them to still get the payday games from big schools.
However the power 5 is really the Power 2. Those are the big money schools basically outside ND and a few others. Upsets will always happen, but in major CFB less endowed Schools are not competing much for the best players anyway. All parties will have to put together a model that works. Maybe have the SEC/ BIG put together a rules committee that governs football.

Well, very arguably, if the schools hadn't been greedy for that TV money AND the fans hadn't been crazy for football on TV ...... we'd still be watching Jeff-Pilot, perhaps, and getting our butts sore in Neyland more often.

We'd also not have money turning this whole thing into pro sports.

I'll take my piece of the blame and the big revenue schools should too, but the NCAA has had decades to see this coming, many decades to see that players were under compensated by the scholarships and being illegally paid, and all that we've seen leading up to this.

The NCAA went to court, but they had no "plan B" and I'll bet their attorneys could've told them years ago they'd lose Alston. So, the NCAA definitely sucks and failed but the schools and us fans started the moneyball rolling.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Understood, but there would be no need for NIL collectives if schools were simply paying the players (which they eventually will be doing, IMHO). NIL's only exist due to the current status of college football. You don't see NIL's operating with professional athletes.

NIL is every commercial pro players do. You see NIL deals EVERYWHERE among pro sports. Magazine ads, billboards in their market, TV commercials, signed bats or racquets or balls, etc.

All that is NIL. What you don't see is the sham of team creating NIL to keep players, but NIL is a big, lucrative part of being a "star" athlete.

 

[LakeMaryFLVol]

This NIL thing is likely to end in a flat rate being paid to all players. Players get paid and eliminates bidding wars. Also removes incentive to change school just for the money.

I actually think the changes instead of a flat rate will a two year commitment before jumping to another school and there will be a portal day like the old signing day . Can't jump until after national championship. A Feb. 2 date with admittance in the Spring before practice.

 

[butchna]

It depends. I think Ivy League schools could afford to transition with players as employees but those universities really are proud to be academic institutions.

They pay a lot of researchers who rarely, if ever, actually teach many students but run labs, bring grants, publish important research, etc. The value of those researchers is in grants and prestige of having Big Name Person in the field on staff and as an occasional mentor to the next Big Name.

I'm unsure football fits in that niche easily for them. The prestige of being an original keeps Vandy in the SEC and the prestige and tradition of Yale and Harvard in college football itself can probably sustain whatever they have to pay players.

Lots of money in research. Why haven’t any of THEM unionized? Because they have longer term plans outside of their current bubble.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I actually think the changes instead of a flat rate will a two year commitment before jumping to another school and there will be a portal day like the old signing day . Can't jump until after national championship. A Feb. 2 date with admittance in the Spring before practice.

Multiple states, including TN, and DOJ are suing the NCAA and winning over transfer restrictions.

Short of the NCAA or a couple of conferences going all in on creating a professional league, there's likely no success reining in transfers.

U.S. Department of Justice joins multi-state lawsuit challenging NCAA restrictions on transfers

The NCAA's ongoing legal battle with several states now includes the Department of Justice

www.cbssports.com

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Lots of money in research. Why haven’t any of THEM unionized? Because they have longer term plans outside of their current bubble.

I've known SOME researchers who get a piece of the patent, which may or may not be lucrative but more of those people get their money and recognition from their peers via speaking engagements, industry consultations, etc.

There's not a huge market for those kinds of services: research in schools, defense industry research, etc is pretty much all you can do with some specialized fields.

Unions aren't practical for the extreme niche research fields.

 

[butchna]

I've known SOME researchers who get a piece of the patent, which may or may not be lucrative but more of those people get their money and recognition from their peers via speaking engagements, industry consultations, etc.

There's not a huge market for those kinds of services: research in schools, defense industry research, etc is pretty much all you can do with some specialized fields.

Unions aren't practical for the extreme niche research fields.

Lots of money and student are vital in the work product. But their intelligence also allows for the waste of time fighting a protracted battle in labor and therefore they decline.

 

[BigALWiLson]

Well, very arguably, if the schools hadn't been greedy for that TV money AND the fans hadn't been crazy for football on TV ...... we'd still be watching Jeff-Pilot, perhaps, and getting our butts sore in Neyland more often.

We'd also not have money turning this whole thing into pro sports.

I'll take my piece of the blame and the big revenue schools should too, but the NCAA has had decades to see this coming, many decades to see that players were under compensated by the scholarships and being illegally paid, and all that we've seen leading up to this.

The NCAA went to court, but they had no "plan B" and I'll bet their attorneys could've told them years ago they'd lose Alston. So, the NCAA definitely sucks and failed but the schools and us fans started the moneyball rolling.

The NFL didn't use to be huge money either. Contracts have went beyond stupid in pro sports. It was only a matter of time. And Honestly I would rather watch College Ball. So yeah I've had my ass in Neyland and watched many many games on TV. And yes we agree it's beyond time for new leadership driving CFB. What it is and what it looks like is beyond me.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The NFL didn't use to be huge money either. Contracts have went beyond stupid in pro sports. It was only a matter of time. And Honestly I would rather watch College Ball. So yeah I've had my ass in Neyland and watched many many games on TV. And yes we agree it's beyond time for new leadership driving CFB. What it is and what it looks like is beyond me.

The NFL, NBA, MLB, and even the NHL changed dramatically as far as salaries went when the TV contracts started to climb.

It wasn't rocket science to know college sports would go that way also when March Madness and College Football became so lucrative for the schools.

As I said, many years ago the NCAA TRIED to keep money out of the college game and got sued by the schools for TV rights. That brought on the increasing illegal payments, then NIL lawsuits and even more payments, and now the complete loss of control by anyone.

With the pros, they managed to get the Antitrust Law Exemptions which help them navigate salaries and control without getting sued every few months. The NCAA is depending on Congress at one of the worst periods of politics the nation has ever seen so Congress is pretty much useless on big issues, much less athletics.

There's not a solution though I do wish the NCAA would stop poking at schools like UT and try to die slowly.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

The bottom line is this.

Tennessee will win their case if the NCAA allows it to go to court. Their best option would be to withdraw accusations and drop it. They won’t. The reason is they know this has to happen. Once Tennessee wins their case, the NCAA will be PERMANENTLY enjoined from enforcing rules regarding NIL and recruiting. PERMANENTLY. The only way they could come out ahead is if Congress grants them an antitrust exemption. That will never happen. Why? Because the major programs wanting to pay kids covers the majority of states that would give them a majority in both the house and senate. The NCAA as we know it is dead. It was placed on life support with O’bannon vs The NCAA. Once our case is finished the NCAA can do nothing but supervise rules of play. They don’t worry about that because it doesn’t drain the teat like thousands of billable hours of investigating who gave a kid a ride to a BBQ.

Now with the Dartmouth ruling on collective bargaining we’re in for another roller coaster ride. Not every kid in the top 50 of football recruiting is going to give his bargaining power to a union that’s going to take a percentage of his earnings. That model will never work. It can’t work because every player will have to be paid a minimum. Which 5* QB is going to hand his earning power over like that so it can be divied up to the 2nd string long snapper?

The days of kids playing for ‘love of the game’ are over. With it goes a lot of the reasons many of us loved this sport so much.

Collective bargaining isn't 100% of the picture.
A salary cap is in the offing with athletes as employees - possibly with equal pay for all team members. That wouldn't affect NIL at all, though.

 

[BigALWiLson]

Honestly you can't really treat SEC schools or even B1G schools the same way you treat Idaho nor is it realistic to say they play by the same rules. We all know thats false. Yeah sometimes these smaller schools pull off an upset, sometimes they play well. So I think keeping those games and opportunities will be important if nothing more than a payday for the smaller school. However I don't know how you truly undo what is done and set in motion.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Understood, but there would be no need for NIL collectives if schools were simply paying the players (which they eventually will be doing, IMHO). NIL's only exist due to the current status of college football. You don't see NIL's operating with professional athletes.

Not so. NIL is fir endorsements above and beyond scholarships, pay, or any other benefit from the schools.

Pay would help the athletes that don't have enough status to get NIL money, but it wouldn't replace it for those that do get NIL money. It would be "in addition to", not "instead of".

Again, the NCAA or any school can regulate it limit NIL regardless of athlete status.

 

[BigALWiLson]

Not so. NIL is fir endorsements above and beyond scholarships, pay, or any other benefit from the schools.

Pay would help the athletes that don't have enough status to get NIL money, but it wouldn't replace it for those that do get NIL money. It would be "in addition to", not "instead of".

Again, the NCAA or any school can regulate it limit NIL regardless of athlete status.

So you can say yes at UT we will pay players a base pay of 35k a year. Possibly do this Conference wide. However you can't touch Collectives at all. Basically saying the best athletes and most marketable will receive more incentives.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

UT is not fighting so that students can get part of that $50M they'll get via the SEC via ESPN. UT almost certainly wants no part of actual "revenue sharing" and "collective bargaining" and "employee status" for athletes.

The inefficiencies associated with that would be awful. Have to pay more to cover their taxes and at best they would have to pay tuition at the rate OTHER employees do, would get around the out of state issue. Not sure what the pro model does for housing? Food, insurance, etc. doubt they can be freebies like the amateur model. Uncle Sam wants his cut.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

This NIL thing is likely to end in a flat rate being paid to all players. Players get paid and eliminates bidding wars. Also removes incentive to change school just for the money.

No it isn't. NIL is not subject to flat rates or salary caps. NIL $$ per individual depends on that person's marketability and what the market will bear. The NCAA cannot legally regulate it, cap it, or interfere with it.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The inefficiencies associated with that would be awful. Have to pay more to cover their taxes and at best they would have to pay tuition at the rate OTHER employees do, would get around the out of state issue. Not sure what the pro model does for housing? Food, insurance, etc. doubt they can be freebies like the amateur model. Uncle Sam wants his cut.

I'm sure the SCOTUS will not care about the tax implications and such if they determine the "student-athlete" model is in violation of Antitrust Law.

If it's determined by SCOTUS that players ARE employees and therefore pro athletes, it's an almost certainty the schools will partner with the pro leagues for the Antitrust Exemption protection. Whatever measures the pros have in place will be applied to college.

It takes care of the portal issues, the "cludge" of NIL payments essentially by the schools, etc when an already established and knowledgeable pro players union starts negotiating compensation and concessions for college age athletes.

It destroys college athletics as we know it and crushes the college athlete experience, most likely, for those who aren't worthy of pro status because lesser schools can neither afford to nor should pay athletes.

 

[BanditVol]

When you say NCAA do you mean the schools? I recently read that UT just got 52 million from the NCAA//SEC.

Is that all? And how are you defining "from the NCAA"???

Are you saying from TV contracts? The NCAA lost a lawsuit to Georgia and Oklahoma in the 80s and now has zero to do with TV contracts, that's all at the conference level.

 

[BanditVol]

When you say NCAA do you mean the schools? I recently read that UT just got 52 million from the NCAA//SEC.

Interestingly, of the record $202 million revenue of the UT AD last year, about $147 million or roughly 2/3rds of it was "self generated" from tickets, donations, concessions and parking, and merchandise. I would assume the balance is TV, though the article below doesn't say.

If so, the NCAA had zero to do with that $54 million. The $54 million is SEC revenue, not NCAA. Maybe crack a book sometime bro???

Tennessee Athletics Reaches New Revenue Milestone - University of Tennessee Athletics

For the first time in school history, the department eclipsed the $200 million mark in revenue generation.

utsports.com

 

[BanditVol]

Interestingly, of the record $202 million revenue of the UT AD last year, about $147 million or roughly 2/3rds of it was "self generated" from tickets, donations, concessions and parking, and merchandise. I would assume the balance is TV, though the article below doesn't say.

If so, the NCAA had zero to do with that $54 million. The $54 million is SEC revenue, not NCAA. Maybe crack a book sometime bro???

Tennessee Athletics Reaches New Revenue Milestone - University of Tennessee Athletics

For the first time in school history, the department eclipsed the $200 million mark in revenue generation.

utsports.com

okay, looking at the details, the NCAA did provide about $3.7 million in:

revenue distributions, grants, NCAA championships travel reimbursements and payments received from the NCAA for
hosting a championship

FY2023 NCAA Report (PDF) - University of Tennessee Athletics

FY2023 NCAA Report (PDF)

utsports.com

That's a far cry from $54 million though...most of that was SEC, not NCAA.

 

[Jaxon_Vol2017]

This NIL thing is likely to end in a flat rate being paid to all players. Players get paid and eliminates bidding wars. Also removes incentive to change school just for the money.

I'd actually be good with that.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

UT is not fighting so that students can get part of that $50M they'll get via the SEC via ESPN. UT almost certainly wants no part of actual "revenue sharing" and "collective bargaining" and "employee status" for athletes.

UT is trying to ensure that if NIL EXISTS our kids get their fair share of money from outside the AD. So good relationships within the rules OF THAT DAY with those legally able to fund them is key.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

I'd actually be good with that.

No, it won't. Better players will get higher NIL contributions from the collectives.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

I'm sure the SCOTUS will not care about the tax implications and such if they determine the "student-athlete" model is in violation of Antitrust Law.

If it's determined by SCOTUS that players ARE employees and therefore pro athletes, it's an almost certainty the schools will partner with the pro leagues for the Antitrust Exemption protection. Whatever measures the pros have in place will be applied to college.

It takes care of the portal issues, the "cludge" of NIL payments essentially by the schools, etc when an already established and knowledgeable pro players union starts negotiating compensation and concessions for college age athletes.

It destroys college athletics as we know it and crushes the college athlete experience, most likely, for those who aren't worthy of pro status because lesser schools can neither afford to nor should pay athletes.

Bottom line, NCAA is a training ground for professionals, not en mass professionals during their college days. How many commercials point out the he percentage of college players that EVER play pro sports. To push that envelope would likely force a separate division for the top players. The salaries for the bottom half of the 85 counters on 80% of the teams would probably not break even with the amateur model.

You have not been able to provide housing to employees since the late 70’s. Uncle Sam wants his cut. That used to be a staple in the apartment industry. Would be a good study to see the differentials in housing costs by school in player’s calculations when being recruited.

I bet a few lower court rulings will go that route, but the requirement to allow OUTSIDE income in the amateur model by the big court is what it is, no more.

The very presence of D3 sports is a big logic problem.

 

[volfeeva]

I heard somewhere that Brock Purdy is making the rookie minimal , around $900K a year. How did we get to a place where a freshman college QB can make more than the starting qb playing in the Superbowl ?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Bottom line, NCAA is a training ground for professionals, not en mass professionals during their college days. How many commercials point out the he percentage of college players that EVER play pro sports. To push that envelope would likely force a separate division for the top players. The salaries for the bottom half of the 85 counters on 80% of the teams would probably not break even with the amateur model.

You have not been able to provide housing to employees since the late 70’s. Uncle Sam wants his cut. That used to be a staple in the apartment industry. Would be a good study to see the differentials in housing costs by school in player’s calculations when being recruited.

I bet a few lower court rulings will go that route, but the requirement to allow OUTSIDE income in the amateur model by the big court is what it is, no more.

The very presence of D3 sports is a big logic problem.

I'm not an attorney, but here's a quote from the Harvard Law Review about what Alston v NCAA means concerning players being amateur or not.

++++
Although the Supreme Court did not have occasion to review the NCAA’s rules regarding compensation unrelated to education, its decision laid the groundwork for the dismantling of those rules in future proceedings. Prior to Alston, the Supreme Court had not definitively stated whether the NCAA’s compensation rules were subject to the rule of reason test under the Sherman Act; now that the Court has clarified that they are, the remaining restrictions on compensation cannot pass scrutiny. Justice Kavanaugh’s concurrence already raised serious concerns about the legality of the remaining rules by arguing that the NCAA cannot justify restricting compensation “by calling it product definition.”
++++

Basically, just because the NCAA SAYS athletes are amateurs, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh both doubted the NCAA could win a case challenging payment.

As I see it, if you're regularly doing something for someone and they're making money from your efforts AND paying you to do it, you're a professional.

I might be wrong but Gorsuch and Kavanaugh both essentially said, "Just because you insist your business is defined by being played by amateur athletes doesn't mean they actually are amateur athletes. You're going to have a hard time proving you're not exploiting labor and wage fixing."

So, I'm in decent company when I say: college players are en masse professionals.