2020 qb comparison/talk/debate (merged)

[Hacksaw]

The game is also different because the rules have changed so much. 4000 yards in Namath’s and Fout’s day are not the same as 4000 yards today. They have changed a ton of rules that make it very easy for even average qbs to pass for 4000 today. I guarantee you that very few of today’s qbs would be passing for 4000 yards if the rules were the same as those of the 60s-80’s. Plus there are two more regular season games. NONE of the pre 2000 passing stats can be compared against today’s stats. Different game and very different rules. Fouts 4000 yards would be like 6000 in today’s game.

It's probably worth noting that all 3 of Fouts' 4,000-yard seasons happened after the league went to 16 games. And he failed to reach the mark in his last 6 seasons. So it would be wrong to assume that it suddenly became no big deal. It was still considered a career-defining accomplishment throughout the '80s and '90s. And, as I mentioned previously, many great QBs never reached the mark.

Of course 4,000 became more commonplace over time. When someone comes along and does something at a level above how it has always been done, others adapt and learn how to copy it. In '97, the last season before Peyton entered the league, no one reached 4,000. In 2003 when Peyton had his 5th 4,000-yard passing season in a row, only one other QB joined him with 4,000. The year after he retired, over a dozen did it. I don't think that's a coincidence.

 

[SmashMouth]

I gotta disagree on this. Here’s why. Being in a division with the likes of the Jets, Dolphins and Bills for the last 20 years the Patriots were all but guaranteed a playoff birth every year. Being in the AFC where the only other CONSISTENT team is the Steelers they’ve had a fairly easy road through the playoffs as well. Given the fact that they seem to get caught cheating every 3 years only tells me there’s more going on than we know and it’s constantly.

Once again, weak division, coaching changes, "cheating"....I get it. But Who won the championship? Maybe the Dolphins are using steroids?. Maybe the Browns were paying off refs in the 1950's...Who can say. it's all a part of that era and becomes a part that that story.

But overall, historically....who won? Brady is the GOAT. No dispute. It's wrong to deny him that.

I am 100% sure Franco caught that immaculate reception....Raiders fans...not so much. But Steelers are the champs and the Raiders on in Las Vegas!

 

[9876543vol]

False. Totally not fair giving him credit. "He's done a nice job" Nope. So tired of hearing how easy it is to win 6 super bowls. Especially defending a dude that is 12-3 vs the Steelers.

The only way to compare QB is is by championships. Who won, against their competition, in their era. Would a tight end have made the difference? Perhaps. Would a better OC have mattered. Maybe? But winning is the only thing that matters. and Tom Brady has won more. He's the GOAT.

btw, not doing anything stupid at QB in a super bowl is a pretty impressive stat.

During the 2008 season the patriots missed Brady the whole season, they still finished 11-5, during the 2011 season the colts missed Manning the whole season, and they finished 2-14. Pretty eye opening I would say.

 

[1vol8]

Once again, weak division, coaching changes, "cheating"....I get it. But Who won the championship? Maybe the Dolphins are using steroids?. Maybe the Browns were paying off refs in the 1950's...Who can say. it's all a part of that era and becomes a part that that story.

But overall, historically....who won? Brady is the GOAT. No dispute. It's wrong to deny him that.

I am 100% sure Franco caught that immaculate reception....Raiders fans...not so much. But Steelers are the champs and the Raiders on in Las Vegas!

Truth is 3 of those Super Bowl victories should’ve been stripped and given to the teams they played in them once spygate was made public. There should’ve been a more harsh penalty for deflate gate BECAUSE of spygate. And the most recent “spygate 2”(if you will) should see Belicheck out of the league. Jmo

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

It's probably worth noting that all 3 of Fouts' 4,000-yard seasons happened after the league went to 16 games. And he failed to reach the mark in his last 6 seasons. So it would be wrong to assume that it suddenly became no big deal. It was still considered a career-defining accomplishment throughout the '80s and '90s. And, as I mentioned previously, many great QBs never reached the mark.

Of course 4,000 became more commonplace over time. When someone comes along and does something at a level above how it has always been done, others adapt and learn how to copy it. In '97, the last season before Peyton entered the league, no one reached 4,000. In 2003 when Peyton had his 5th 4,000-yard passing season in a row, only one other QB joined him with 4,000. The year after he retired, over a dozen did it. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Good point. I’m never going to argue against Peyton being a ‘game changer’.

 

[SmashMouth]

He would have no SBs and likely a have been journeyman backup had he not been drafted by NE. Quite a few QBs could have been inserted in his place and Pats would have still won those SBs. He has no athleticism, has average arm strength and had enjoyed an oline that gives him a ton of time to stand there a throw 5 yard slants all day. Never have been impressed with him and never will be. I respect your opinion though - you are entitled to it and raise some good points as others do.

Is it really that easy to win superbowls with such a mediocre QB? Baltimore canned Trent Dilfer for less? Someone has to pull the trigger. Not as easy as it looks.

I agree with your comments on his lack of athleticism but I truly disagree him not being the GOAT. Once again...I truly dislike Brady. I can not tell you how many times I have cursed him.

But I have to respect the the wins. Winning ugly, winning pretty...aint no difference. Winning is winning.

 

[SmashMouth]

During the 2008 season the patriots missed Brady the whole season, they still finished 11-5, during the 2011 season the colts missed Manning the whole season, and they finished 2-14. Pretty eye opening I would say.

yeah, and with Brady, they might have gone 16-0.....stats are stats. Who has the most super bowls victory?

Im sure Brady is slower and missed more passes and inflated balls...stats, stats, stats...won has the most super bowls.

Thats all that matters. Thats all the will ever matter

 

[1vol8]

Once again, weak division, coaching changes, "cheating"....I get it. But Who won the championship? Maybe the Dolphins are using steroids?. Maybe the Browns were paying off refs in the 1950's...Who can say. it's all a part of that era and becomes a part that that story.

But overall, historically....who won? Brady is the GOAT. No dispute. It's wrong to deny him that.

I am 100% sure Franco caught that immaculate reception....Raiders fans...not so much. But Steelers are the champs and the Raiders on in Las Vegas!

If the NFL had the integrity of college football USC (Reggie Bush) can attest to how strict the punishment for cheating should’ve been.

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

One more comment about TN qbs. I spent a lot of time in the rivals site during signing day. I thought it was interesting that HBs rating and scores were almost IDENTICAL to JGs a few years ago when he was recruited. Both were high 4 stars, about a 6.0, ranked in the 30’s overall, within top 2-3 DT / PRO QB ratings in the country, etc. Kind of scary. Almost a carbon copy of each other.

 

[SmashMouth]

Truth is 3 of those Super Bowl victories should’ve been stripped and given to the teams they played in them once spygate was made public. There should’ve been a more harsh penalty for deflate gate BECAUSE of spygate. And the most recent “spygate 2”(if you will) should see Belicheck out of the league. Jmo

and I agree 100% They team unnamed are totally cheating, to this day they are. But, I can't change that or history! I'm not even gonna type the "B" word.

But, if I am truly a football fan, and I respect the sport and its historic canons. I have to give Brady props. I have argued this point with all my Steeler friends for months now! Truth is truth and wins are wins.

 

[SmashMouth]

If the NFL had the integrity of college football USC (Reggie Bush) can attest to how strict the punishment for cheating should’ve been.

yeah man. that's a whole new thread and worth several billion more! I've also got a bone to chew with the NFL refs the last few years...but I think I'm really driving the conversation...off topic!

 

[9876543vol]

yeah, and with Brady, they might have gone 16-0.....stats are stats. Who has the most super bowls victory?

Im sure Brady is slower and missed more passes and inflated balls...stats, stats, stats...won has the most super bowls.

Thats all that matters. Thats all the will ever matter

My post was not about who won more, it was about who was better.
The very best at a craft, in a team sport, is not always the winningest.

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

Well 1vol8- mission accomplished. You have generated a lot of lively discussion and now have a 200+ post thread. And you were worried about people responding?

 

[1vol8]

and I agree 100% They team unnamed are totally cheating, to this day they are. But, I can't change that or history! I'm not even gonna type the "B" word.

But, if I am truly a football fan, and I respect the sport and its historic canons. I have to give Brady props. I have argued this point with all my Steeler friends for months now! Truth is truth and wins are wins.

If they were won straight up I don’t think there could be ANY questions whatsoever. However because they were not won honestly I personally don’t recognize the Patriots as 6 time SB champs. I don’t recognize Brady as the best and truth is I’m not sure who could. One thing I can say is if my son or daughter brought home an A on a major test but I seen the answers written on their hand when I went to congratulate them, that would be a time for discipline, not praise. So until I learn to be the opposite of honest I can’t honestly give Brady or Belicheck any credit.

 

[1vol8]

Well 1vol8- mission accomplished. You have generated a lot of lively discussion and now have a 200+ post thread. And you were worried about people responding?

Lol. And I thought the scores would be the flint that lit it up!

 

[1vol8]

yeah man. that's a whole new thread and worth several billion more! I've also got a bone to chew with the NFL refs the last few years...but I think I'm really driving the conversation...off topic!

Not really. It’s qb talk all the same. You’re good.

 

[SmashMouth]

My post was not about who won more, it was about who was better.
The very best at a craft, in a team sport, is not always the winningest.

I respectfully disagree. The very best at the craft should win, right?

It's a game of wins and losses. If a person is the best QB ever, and they never win....what is that? They are the best athlete that never wins?

There are sooo many variables, stats, coaches and the QB gets way too much credit. But winning is the only thing that matters, no matter what

 

[SmashMouth]

If they were won straight up I don’t think there could be ANY questions whatsoever. However because they were not won honestly I personally don’t recognize the Patriots as 6 time SB champs. I don’t recognize Brady as the best and truth is I’m not sure who could. One thing I can say is if my son or daughter brought home an A on a major test but I seen the answers written on their hand when I went to congratulate them, that would be a time for discipline, not praise. So until I learn to be the opposite of honest I can’t honestly give Brady or Belicheck any credit.

brother, you are in the majority and part of me agrees. But, the cheating thing was officially let go my NFL, as well as filming the Jets like 12 years ago? It's in the books. I support it. LOL....me, supporting Brady, "B" and the team that will not be named. lol

 

[1vol8]

I respectfully disagree. The very best at the craft should win, right?

It's a game of wins and losses. If a person is the best QB ever, and they never win....what is that? They are the best athlete that never wins?

There are sooo many variables, stats, coaches and the QB gets way too much credit. But winning is the only thing that matters, no matter what

I know that’s the way it is but I disagree with it. There are too many other things that go into a qb being successful than wins and losses. A very accurate qb can throw 100 balls to a receiver with a 4 ft catch radius and complete 60 of them. Where as a less accurate one can throw to a receiver with a 6 ft catch radius and complete 60 as well. Who would be the better qb in that case when the stats say they are equal? Point is it’s a TEAM game. Montana would have been Montana without Rice. Aikman wouldn’t have been Aikman without Irvin. And neither would’ve ever won chit without a defense.

 

[1vol8]

brother, you are in the majority and part of me agrees. But, the cheating thing was officially let go my NFL, as well as filming the Jets like 12 years ago? It's in the books. I support it. LOL....me, supporting Brady, "B" and the team that will not be named. lol

There’s a 45 min audio on you tube called “spygate, the untold story”. If you get some time it’s worth listening to. It’ll change your mind on it only being stealing signals. That’s just scratching the surface.

 

[whodeycin85]

One more comment about TN qbs. I spent a lot of time in the rivals site during signing day. I thought it was interesting that HBs rating and scores were almost IDENTICAL to JGs a few years ago when he was recruited. Both were high 4 stars, about a 6.0, ranked in the 30’s overall, within top 2-3 DT / PRO QB ratings in the country, etc. Kind of scary. Almost a carbon copy of each other.

That is scary but I think it his actual stats that will make him different..JG was average in high school but showed out in camps (like he does practice)

 

[1vol8]

That is scary but I think it his actual stats that will make him different..JG was average in high school but showed out in camps (like he does practice)

I don’t think that’s “completely” true because so did Maurer 3*, so did Bailey 4*. My guess is it has more to do with where your Hs TEAM is ranked that gets you exposed. It’s the only thing that explains JGs less than mediocre numbers in Hs (and my overall point to K town on how a qbs Hs numbers can tell you who he’s going to be in college) and him being ranked so high in comparison to Bailey with the exact same rank in his own class but Bailey having great numbers. Then you have Maurer having better numbers than both while showing out at high profile camps as well but playing on a bad team.

 

[lexkyvol]

Are you related to or know Maurer? Just asking because you showed up when he did almost.

he is one of, if not maurer's hs coach

 

[lexkyvol]

Well..... I’ll answer those questions. You can’t fairly judge a qbs decision making in a new offense with new terminology.

It’s like asking you to learn Japanese in 6 months then calling you stupid if you’re not fluent. It makes a world of difference KNOWING where his receivers are vs having to find them. So when ACTUALLY COMPARING one vs the other (unlike the services) you have to rate them based on the offense they KNEW the best......Hs. You also can’t fairly rate a freshman qbs decision making in college when he’s in the middle of learning how to read defenses at a new level. Hence why JG was the only one rated under a collegiate level. JTS and Bailey were also rated the same way..... from Hs. It’s the only way to be as fair as possible. As for JGs arm strength I personally haven’t seen him (off the top of my head) have to throw it as far as he’s capable. So I was honest in what I have seen thus being honest in assuming. Not trolling at all..... that’s called honesty. You should try it.

u do know JG has been in a new offense basically every year he's been at UT, right?

 

[whodeycin85]

u do know JG has been in a new offense basically every year he's been at UT, right?

So he stated later that it was like foriegn language especially for a freshman. A 4th year college QB should be able to adjust like the 100s of others that do so...