Ukraine Protests

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#1,526
#1,526
Grand Vol said:
Let me say this then.

Would you rather have the current limp noodle, spineless amateur that currently occupies the White House or someone that actually puts their nation first, is intelligent and decisive?

You may not agree with many of the things that Putin does, but you cannot deny the fact he is an effective leader and is providing something we just don't have in this country.
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neither are worth a damn IMO. Putin does not put the interests of his people first so I don't consider him a leader I would want. He simply wants outsiders to view Russia as a strong country like they did 40-50yrs ago
 
#1,528
#1,528
volprof said:
From the model of politics you work with, yes, he's an effective (perhaps even desirable) leader.

Regarding you last point, I think it's far too early to evaluate Putin's tenure. If this situation somehow doesn't end in his favor and if the Russian economy falls flat within the next decade or so (as it may very well do), he'll look far less effective than he does at the moment.
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To early? Seriously? The man has been in charge for the past 14 years. Even though he was "Prime Minister" for a short time everyone knew Medveded was just a figurehead and the real power resided in Putin.

And the very same thing can be said about America's economy and the boot lickers (the blatantly obvious ones in this thread) that sing Obama's praises to the high heavens without having the first clue as to the damage he is doing to our own economy and national interests.
 
#1,529
#1,529
utvolpj said:
neither are worth a damn IMO. Putin does not put the interests of his people first so I don't consider him a leader I would want. He simply wants outsiders to view Russia as a strong country like they did 40-50yrs ago
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Exactly. The man is an egomaniac and is wildly inconsistent with his policies/beliefs. Not sure why anyone would want those values in a U.S. President...
 
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#1,530
#1,530
utvolpj said:
neither are worth a damn IMO. Putin does not put the interests of his people first so I don't consider him a leader I would want. He simply wants outsiders to view Russia as a strong country like they did 40-50yrs ago
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Same could be said about the majority of our politicians.
 
#1,534
#1,534
utvolpj said:
so why would Putin be better than any of them?
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Why would a President who was decisive, bold, put their nation first (debatable from your point of view) and is basically putting his nation at the forefront of international leadership be desirable?

He has a lot of undesirable qualities, sure. But then again, Russia, and it could be argued that America, has never done well under weak leadership. Which you darn well know we are seeing today.

Russia moved into the Crimea almost a week ago. And what has this Administration done besides bumbling around and given pretty speeches?
 
#1,535
#1,535
Grand Vol said:
Why would a President who was decisive, bold, put their nation first (debatable from your point of view) and is basically putting his nation at the forefront of international leadership be desirable?

He has a lot of undesirable qualities, sure. But then again, Russia, and it could be argued that America, has never done well under weak leadership. Which you darn well know we are seeing today.

Russia moved into the Crimea almost a week ago. And what has this Administration done besides bumbling around and given pretty speeches?
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he wants power for Russia so it benefits a very small and select group. He then sells nationalism to the people and they are dumb enough to believe that matters in their lives one bit. He is not a leader I would ever get behind because he does not care about his people. I wouldn't back a US Pres taking over parts of Canada so why back a Russian one doing essentially the same thing?
 
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#1,536
#1,536
Grand Vol said:
Why would a President who was decisive, bold, put their nation first (debatable from your point of view) and is basically putting his nation at the forefront of international leadership be desirable?

He has a lot of undesirable qualities, sure. But then again, Russia, and it could be argued that America, has never done well under weak leadership. Which you darn well know we are seeing today.

Russia moved into the Crimea almost a week ago. And what has this Administration done besides bumbling around and given pretty speeches?
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He's worked on his golf game.


I
 
#1,537
#1,537
utvolpj said:
he wants power for Russia so it benefits a very small and select group.
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And Obama doesn't want power in America to benefit the select few?

utvolpj said:
He then sells nationalism to the people and they are dumb enough to believe that matters in their lives one bit.
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Say what you want about nationalism, but it's a powerful tool to focus your nation on principles and goals. It's not always bad, the Apollo Program for example, but generally tends to be misused over time.

utvolpj said:
He is not a leader I would ever get behind because he does not care about his people.
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Again, this can be said about most politicians in office today. And that's local, State and National level politics at play today. I'd be willing to bet you couldn't name a dozen politicians off the top of your head that care about "the people" and are not doing things for their own gain.

utvolpj said:
I wouldn't back a US Pres taking over parts of Canada so why back a Russian one doing essentially the same thing?
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Depends on the part of Canada I suppose lol
 
#1,538
#1,538
Grand Vol said:
And Obama doesn't want power in America to benefit the select few?
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I don't think he's a leader either (except of the ignorant) and wouldn't follow him.

Grand Vol said:
Say what you want about nationalism, but it's a powerful tool to focus your nation on principles and goals. It's not always bad, the Apollo Program for example, but generally tends to be misused over time.
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he uses it to persecute his enemies and quell dissent. It's powerful only to those already in power

Grand Vol said:
Again, this can be said about most politicians in office today. And that's local, State and National level politics at play today. I'd be willing to bet you couldn't name a dozen politicians off the top of your head that care about "the people" and are not doing things for their own gain.
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and there are very few politicians I would trust. Putin would never be in that group. He's as useless as Obama and would do nothing for the US
 
#1,539
#1,539
utvolpj said:
I don't think he's a leader either (except of the ignorant) and wouldn't follow him.
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Sad, but true. Unfortunately, the ignorant happen to be the majority voters in this nation right now and are causing more and more damage by allowing themselves to be brainwashed to the concept that Obama was a effective leader.

And waiting on the well thought out lol response from LG...

utvolpj said:
he uses it to persecute his enemies and quell dissent. It's powerful only to those already in power
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And again could be said about Obama without playing the nationalist card. And gets cheered on while doing it.

So other than being bold, decisive and geopolitically savvy (and invading a sovereign nation...well, debatable), there are not a whole lot of differences in the way Putin rules Russia and Obama rules the US.

utvolpj said:
and there are very few politicians I would trust. Putin would never be in that group. He's as useless as Obama and would do nothing for the US
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I never said Putin would be a good President of the US. But his leadership qualities are the central point of this tangent here. And you and I both know there are a lot of "leaders" out there that come up lacking in what tends to be desirable traits in a leader.
 
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#1,540
#1,540
Grand Vol said:
So other than being bold, decisive and geopolitically savvy (and invading a sovereign nation...well, debatable), there are not a whole lot of differences in the way Putin rules Russia and Obama rules the US.
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I hate to invoke Godwin's law in this but...

bold, decisive and geopolitically savvy (all debatable) doesn't make him a leader

Grand Vol said:
I never said Putin would be a good President of the US. But his leadership qualities are the central point of this tangent here. And you and I both know there are a lot of "leaders" out there that come up lacking in what tends to be desirable traits in a leader.
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he is simply not a good leader. He works for a very small group of people while claiming the interests of a much larger group. Of course if that was stated by a Russian citizen they would soon have a heart attack and die of natural causes.
 
#1,541
#1,541
n_huffhines said:
Saw some very disturbing footage today. Why are there pro-Russia Ukranians? What do they think they stand to gain?
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From what I understand the eastern part of Ukraine has many russian roots. Specifically in Crimea, where a vast majority speak Russian and are ethnically Russian. Not to mention they are fed russian propaganda about Ukraine and "problems" they cause.
 
#1,542
#1,542
utvolpj said:
I hate to invoke Godwin's law in this but...

bold, decisive and geopolitically savvy (all debatable) doesn't make him a leader
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I think Godwin's Law was brought up a few hundred posts back lol So nothing new and the historical similarities are pretty obvious to anyone who studies history. Minus the genocide at this point.

Me personally? Having spent my career in the military, I'd prefer a leader who is decisive, a risk taker and someone who can exploit the weaknesses of their foes. All things that Putin has been able to accomplish.

Leadership does mean different things to different people though, so the point could be debated for the next year and not get any resolution.


utvolpj said:
he is simply not a good leader. He works for a very small group of people while claiming the interests of a much larger group. Of course if that was stated by a Russian citizen they would soon have a heart attack and die of natural causes.
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He has managed to pull the Russians out of the rut of the 90s and back into the world power stage. His methods may be suspect, but the point cannot be debated that Russia is back in the upper echelon of power brokers in the world.
 
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#1,543
#1,543
Grand Vol said:
He has managed to pull the Russians out of the rut of the 90s and back into the world power stage. His methods may be suspect, but the point cannot be debated that Russia is back in the upper echelon of power brokers in the world.
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only because of some dead dinos

Putin is a thug but he's no leader. At least he's no leader I would ever follow
 
#1,546
#1,546
Grand Vol said:
He has managed to pull the Russians out of the rut of the 90s and back into the world power stage. His methods may be suspect, but the point cannot be debated that Russia is back in the upper echelon of power brokers in the world.
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Good point.

Russians have a strong national pride. I guess I'm not surprised so many go along with his actions, because like you said, they've become relevant again. Even if it draws criticism from most countries.
 
#1,547
#1,547
Grand Vol said:
You may not agree with many of the things that Putin does, but you cannot deny the fact he is an effective leader and is providing something we just don't have in this country.
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Effective?

He spent eight times more than Vancouver spent for the winter Olympic games, much of which went to corrupt cronies.

This is the kind of leadership America needs?
 
#1,549
#1,549
utvolpj said:
only because of some dead dinos
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The point could be made that Saudi Arabia, Iran, Oman, etc are only relevant on the international stage because of their dead dinos. Let's face it, without oil most of them would still be running around the desert fighting over the nearest oasis if it wasn't for the petrodollar.

Russia is different in that regard with or without Putin at the helm.
 
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