Utah State

[sjt18]

I don't have any issues with any of them. Had you actually read what I posted you would've seen where I said most of them played well considering their talent level.

Coleman is fast, but he does not have fluid hips and is consistently getting burnt. And high school rankings are Irrelevent, any coach will tell you they don't use recruiting services. And if they were always correct Chris Donald would've been a superstar.

So you are saying that the only measure we have of Jones doing anything well is not a reliable measure?

Coleman will be fine if they ever stop putting him in a position to fail.

 

[sjt18]

So deductive reasoning indicates you would fire Saban...?

That's a pretty stupid question that simply does not follow from what I said. Also, Saban's credibility as a coach can take some hits. He's won multiple NC's and has dominated the best conference in college football.

 

[sjt18]

Im of the opinion that I'm not going to base my opinion after 1 year with our coaches.

Nor am I.... except about the performance IN that season and what it suggests about the coaches. He's got three years but that does not mean he's immune from criticism for the things he does or fails to do in the interim.

Thats whats bothersome...you fail to give credit for a good win

No. I absolutely don't. USCe was a good win. I have even said that UGA was a good loss. The problem is that those are greatly outweighed by the bad performances vs USA, Vandy, Mizzou, Bama, Aub, and Oregon.

and I have said the coaches made glaring mistakes in the UF and Vandy games. Your continued neglect of recognizing we won a game against a top 10 team with inferior talent shows you are grinding an axe.

No. YOUR neglect of how that one good win balances against far more underachievements shows a determination to avoid looking at any failure or shortcoming.

 

[Rockytoptalker]

So you are saying that the only measure we have of Jones doing anything well is not a reliable measure?

Coleman will be fine if they ever stop putting him in a position to fail.

How did they put him in a position to fail? None of the other db's did as bad as him, and, in case you were unaware, they all played on the same defense.

 

[MSME Vol]

Coleman will be fine if they ever stop putting him in a position to fail.

Please expand

 

[tim]

No. YOUR neglect of how that one good win balances against far more underachievements shows a determination to avoid looking at any failure or shortcoming.

Funny, because I literally said there were glaring issues in games. Also, do you realize Dobbs did not travel to UF. Dobbs wasnt the 3rd option in our qb rotation. Bad luck with our qb's and Couch's dumbass move along with injuries in our thin roster on defense CAN make ANY staff look bad.

 

[sjt18]

Funny, because I literally said there were glaring issues in games. Also, do you realize Dobbs did not travel to UF. Dobbs wasnt the 3rd option in our qb rotation. Bad luck with our qb's and Couch's dumbass move along with injuries in our thin roster on defense CAN make ANY staff look bad.

Is there anything you won't do to avoid placing any blame at all on the coaches? Are you really and truly that disposed to blinding yourself to their shortcomings and mistakes? Why do you insist on excuse after excuse?

I've never said they can't or won't do better. I have simply said that this season they were not impressive. They did not get the most of the roster that was possible or even "average" (6 wins). I HOPE that their method of development just takes longer but pays off big in the end. I HOPE that they were holding some guys back to develop them.

But they underachieved the talent on this roster. Some games should have been more competitive. One game should not have been competitive. And they should not have lost to Vandy.

Can you not admit that there were flaws in the coaching that will either be corrected or else continue to result in poor performance?

 

[sjt18]

Stoops just ran a Fr QB out there against Bama. He had him ready to play physically, mentally, and emotionally. He smoked Saban's D more than anyone except Manziel.

Can one of you defenders at all costs tell me why OU's staff could get that kid ready to destroy Bama but UT's staff couldn't get Dobbs ready to put up a credible effort against Vandy?

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

Stoops just ran a Fr QB out there against Bama. He had him ready to play physically, mentally, and emotionally. He smoked Saban's D more than anyone except Manziel.

Can one of you defenders at all costs tell me why OU's staff could get that kid ready to destroy Bama but UT's staff couldn't get Dobbs ready to put up a credible effort against Vandy?

Stoops had about a month to get him ready for one specific team also OU has more talent at skill positions than we do.

Also Dobbs may have been hurt in that game and we lost our best threat at WR in that game. And as I and others have stated Dobbs play early in that game and losing North along with some big drops by our WR in that game had a major effect on the playing calling. Doesn't matter how well you coach if the players don't preform.

 

[oregonvol]

Stoops had about a month to get him ready for one specific team also OU has more talent at skill positions than we do.

Also Dobbs may have been hurt in that game and we lost our best threat at WR in that game. And as I and others have stated Dobbs play early in that game and losing North along with some big drops by our WR in that game had a major effect on the playing calling. Doesn't matter how well you coach if the players don't preform.

It's a good thing players hardly ever get injured or make mistakes. Now that we've got those fluke things behind us, Butch is sure to dominate.

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

It's a good thing players hardly ever get injured or make mistakes. Now that we've got those fluke things behind us, Butch is sure to dominate.

I know. Can't wait for next year.

 

[tim]

Iirc OU's qb was a rs freshman...Anyhow, he started the season and was injured, he prepared all summer and if he is a rs he had an entire year prior.

 

[tim]

Is there anything you won't do to avoid placing any blame at all on the coaches? Are you really and truly that disposed to blinding yourself to their shortcomings and mistakes? Why do you insist on excuse after excuse?

I've never said they can't or won't do better. I have simply said that this season they were not impressive. They did not get the most of the roster that was possible or even "average" (6 wins). I HOPE that their method of development just takes longer but pays off big in the end. I HOPE that they were holding some guys back to develop them.

But they underachieved the talent on this roster. Some games should have been more competitive. One game should not have been competitive. And they should not have lost to Vandy.

Can you not admit that there were flaws in the coaching that will either be corrected or else continue to result in poor performance?

Can you read/comprehend? I said "glaring issues". But your continued denial of roster issues is more glaring.

 

[rekinhavoc]

Can you read/comprehend? I said "glaring issues". But your continued denial of roster issues is more glaring.

The wine isn't even flowing yet.

 

[Rockytoptalker]

Stoops just ran a Fr QB out there against Bama. He had him ready to play physically, mentally, and emotionally. He smoked Saban's D more than anyone except Manziel.

Can one of you defenders at all costs tell me why OU's staff could get that kid ready to destroy Bama but UT's staff couldn't get Dobbs ready to put up a credible effort against Vandy?

And Stoops and his staff have been there for how long now?

It wasn't just him, their whole team gelled because they benefited from continuity in the coaching staff.

 

[tim]

The wine isn't even flowing yet.

Actually I'm sipping some right now.

 

[rekinhavoc]

Actually I'm sipping some right now.

Chateau De Malt Duck '14?

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

Stoops just ran a Fr QB out there against Bama. He had him ready to play physically, mentally, and emotionally. He smoked Saban's D more than anyone except Manziel.

Can one of you defenders at all costs tell me why OU's staff could get that kid ready to destroy Bama but UT's staff couldn't get Dobbs ready to put up a credible effort against Vandy?

OUs QB was a redshirt freshman so he had more exposure and time to learn the system. This was our first year of a brand new offensive system. Also how long has stoops been the coach at OU?

Can't really compare the two unless you are just trying to find something else to complain about and point to as bad coaching.

 

[sjt18]

Stoops had about a month to get him ready for one specific team also OU has more talent at skill positions than we do.

Stoops was facing Bama... not Vandy.

Also Dobbs may have been hurt in that game and we lost our best threat at WR in that game. And as I and others have stated Dobbs play early in that game and losing North along with some big drops by our WR in that game had a major effect on the playing calling. Doesn't matter how well you coach if the players don't preform.

Umm... coaching has a direct bearing on player performance.

The rest is just more excuses for not getting the job done.

Dooley was condemned progressively by more people beginning in '11. Why? He had a great excuse. Hunter who was the lynch pin of his O went down with a season ending injury. His secondary leader was lost later in the season to an ACL. He still didn't have the overall talent to really compete. So what was his crime?... He didn't do what he could have with what he had.... much less overachieve. He followed that up with a disaster in '12 and was rightly fired. I don't think anyone thought he should get more time except maybe Hart after about the 5th or 6th game of '12.


Great coaches find a way. Great coaches get the most out of their players. Great coaches at some point simply demonstrate the ability to outcoach another good coach.

UT needs a GREAT... not good... not average... coach.

 

[sjt18]

Can you read/comprehend? I said "glaring issues". But your continued denial of roster issues is more glaring.

Point to a single place where I have denied there were roster issues. I have stated, ad nauseum, that the roster had holes. It was not a roster that should have been expected to compete for the East or win 8+ games.

It was a roster with an average coaching performance should have won 6 games. With better than average coaching, 7 games.

Can you read/comprehend because I have said this repeatedly?

 

[sjt18]

And Stoops and his staff have been there for how long now?

It wasn't just him, their whole team gelled because they benefited from continuity in the coaching staff.

That's a factor. It still doesn't make up the difference in the competition we are talking about. OU's talent is MUCH closer to Bama's than Vandy's was to UT's. But still Stoops with less talent clearly outcoached Saban with more. Likewise Franklin with less talent outcoached Jones with more.

 

[sjt18]

OUs QB was a redshirt freshman so he had more exposure and time to learn the system. This was our first year of a brand new offensive system. Also how long has stoops been the coach at OU?

Can't really compare the two unless you are just trying to find something else to complain about and point to as bad coaching.

Yes. You can compare the two... and the comparison is valid.

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

Stoops was facing Bama... not Vandy.



Umm... coaching has a direct bearing on player performance.

The rest is just more excuses for not getting the job done.

Dooley was condemned progressively by more people beginning in '11. Why? He had a great excuse. Hunter who was the lynch pin of his O went down with a season ending injury. His secondary leader was lost later in the season to an ACL. He still didn't have the overall talent to really compete. So what was his crime?... He didn't do what he could have with what he had.... much less overachieve. He followed that up with a disaster in '12 and was rightly fired. I don't think anyone thought he should get more time except maybe Hart after about the 5th or 6th game of '12.


Great coaches find a way. Great coaches get the most out of their players. Great coaches at some point simply demonstrate the ability to outcoach another good coach.

UT needs a GREAT... not good... not average... coach.

Whether you will admitted it or not the talent between bama vs OU and UT vs vandy is about the same. Would you say that the great coach that is Saban that all other coaches from now to eternity should be compared had a bad game? If so even a great coach can have a bad game.

Who would you consider a great coach? Saban before being hied at LSU? A great coach has to have a chance to be great.

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

Yes. You can compare the two... and the comparison is valid.

Show me how they are similar. OU's QB was a redshirt freshman who sat out '12 and started this year but was injured. And stoops has the players in place to run his system as he has been there for about 14 yrs. Stoops had about 1 month to prep Knight for that game. Also they started 2 srs and 1 sop at WR.

Butch had 2 weeks to prep an 18 true freshman QB for vandy. Butch is in his first year at UT and is starting to get players for his system here. Also at WR we started 1 fr, 1 rs fr and 1 sop.

Most people would admitted those to things aren't comparable other then the fact that both Stoops and Jones are the head coaches at their respective schools.

 

[sjt18]

Whether you will admitted it or not the talent between bama vs OU and UT vs vandy is about the same. Would you say that the great coach that is Saban that all other coaches from now to eternity should be compared had a bad game? If so even a great coach can have a bad game.

I would say that Saban has a bad game once in awhile. I would have to look but he may have never been beaten by 28+ points since coming to the SEC much less 4 times in the same season. Saban has a bad game once in awhile and routinely has very good ones against the best teams he faces. Jones had two good games this year couple with six bad games. So yes. I would accept your comparison with consideration to the frequency a coach has a bad game.

So above you at least agree that UT has more talent than Vandy? That's progress I suppose.

Who would you consider a great coach? Saban before being hied at LSU? A great coach has to have a chance to be great.

Agree totally. I hold out hope that what we saw this year was not the "true" Jones when it comes to developing and coaching his team. They were not consistently competitive, they underachieved the talent, and whatever progressive development occurred was not apparent on the field.

Great coaches show it early and often. Many here love to point to Saban's first year at Bama as some kind of proof that its OK to have a loss to a lesser team or have a bad record in year one. The problem with that reasoning that is so often ignored is that Bama didn't lose a single one of those 6 games that year by more than 7 points. He proved that even under bad circumstances he could get a team prepared to compete with all comers. Both the record and competitiveness improved over Shula's last year even as Saban had to clean house and rid the program of bad characters, those who didn't buy in, and underachievers. Their average margin of loss that year was 2.75 pts... not even a FG.

Jones' avg margin of loss was 24! Half that would have been more difficult to argue against. For reference, Dooley's avg loss margin in year one was 18 pts. Year two was 19. Year 3 was 13. The first two years were comparable in difficulty to what Jones faced this year and MORE dependent on young or untalented players.

Both coaches had roster issues. Both coaches faced tough schedules though UT's was in fact more difficult (but not enough to explain a 21 pt difference in loss margin). Both coaches replaced fired coaches who left problems in their wake. One coach immediately made his team competitive and poised to take a big step forward the next year. The other coach... left HUGE questions about his staff's ability to compete in the SEC.