Christmas Toy Drive Cancelled (Athiest Threatens Lawsuit)

#126
#126
Obsessed said:
TRUT,
Does Christianity not answer (1)?

It does to me and many others. Whether we follow that like we should is another conversation.
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Christianity does answer (1); all moral/ethical theories must answer both (1) and (2), but how they answer (1) was not important to this discussion.
 
#127
#127
therealUT said:
Christianity does answer (1); all moral/ethical theories must answer both (1) and (2), but how they answer (1) was not important to this discussion.
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Ok

"Theory" suggest that no proof exists. Possibility is that proof exists. Probable is a higher certainty.

I guess I'm not following this " ethical/moral theory" ???
 
#128
#128
therealUT said:
Right, Protestants separate Holy Spirit and conscience; Catholics, post-Aquinas, do not.

Conscience is not a scientific fact; further, the matter gets even more complicated when delving into reductionism and determinism.

I'm not arguing that the conscience is not innate; I'm arguing that it is coherent to believe it is not and that it is coherent to believe it is non-existent (thus, it is coherent to do ethics without presupposing conscience).
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I assumed you were looking at it from a Catholic perspective, and admit my knowledge in this area is lacking, but I didn't think even post Aquinas it was still viewed as the Holy Spirit. Rather, that it is something that can be nurtured to help one distinguish right from wrong.
 
#131
#131
pualsline said:
Link



My favorite part of the story starts on the video at 3:18

Reporter: What is your group, now that you have manged to cancel the program to help the needy children. What exactly is your humanist group doing?

Douche: Well, we're an advocacy group not a charitable group. Although, we do engage in charity from time to time

Reporter: so nothing?

Douche: We just sent about $30,000 over to the Philippians to help support...

Report: That's wonderful, but what are you doing for the children that are not going to get the toys from the boxes?

Douche: Yeah, your stuck on that. :chuckles: Our program is designed to help the kids to have a clean neutral free of church state violation.

Reporter: So you have saved them from a constitutional violation, and that will be a warm comfort to them on Christmas morning.
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Just like westboro baptist gives christians a bad rap, stunts like this do the same for atheist. It's to the point where the word "atheist" even has like an evilish ring to...certainly a negative connotation anyway.
 
#132
#132
IBlvNTmWrk said:
I assumed you were looking at it from a Catholic perspective, and admit my knowledge in this area is lacking, but I didn't think even post Aquinas it was still viewed as the Holy Spirit. Rather, that it is something that can be nurtured to help one distinguish right from wrong.
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Aquinas believes that conscience is the Holy Spirit, and prior to receiving the Holy Spirit (which, for Aquinas, is Pentecost) conscience was non-existent. That said, Aquinas does not believe that being an expressed Christian is a necessary condition for having received the Holy Spirit. Of course, murmurings in the Catholic Church focused on branding Aquinas as a heretic resulting in Aquinas not mentioning things things in his two Summas (though, he never explicitly rejected them nor wrote anything in the Summas which contradict with these earlier positions).

Thomist writings prior to the Summas are fantastic, by the way.
 
#133
#133
therealUT said:
I don't get the impression that anyone is challenging your beliefs (I cannot fully speak for PKT, though, so he might be). I see the discussion as one in which myself and PKT are pointing to the existence of ethical/moral theories that both predate Christianity and neither appeal to nor need to appeal to any notions of conscience.

Any ethical/moral theories must address two questions:
1. How ought one live their life?
2. Why?

Christian morality answers (2) by referencing God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit (conscience). Many ethical theories answer (2) with reference to one's own self-interest and future happiness in this life. The latter can be sufficient without reference to conscience.
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1). I don't feel challenged in the least. On the contrary, I'm waiting for one of you to make an applicable point as opposed to quoting musings from well known philosophers or defining what ethical theory must do.
2) I've already agreed that ethical theory predates Christianity. So what? Tell me why you think that's so important.
3) Christianity is not a moral theory.
4) Conscience and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same.
 
#134
#134
therealUT said:
Aquinas believes that conscience is the Holy Spirit, and prior to receiving the Holy Spirit (which, for Aquinas, is Pentecost) conscience was non-existent. That said, Aquinas does not believe that being an expressed Christian is a necessary condition for having received the Holy Spirit. Of course, murmurings in the Catholic Church focused on branding Aquinas as a heretic resulting in Aquinas not mentioning things things in his two Summas (though, he never explicitly rejected them nor wrote anything in the Summas which contradict with these earlier positions).

Thomist writings prior to the Summas are fantastic, by the way.
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That is not accurate. Aquinas suggests that conscience originates from God but he does not say that the Holy Spirit and conscience are one and the same.
 
#135
#135
txbo said:
1). I don't feel challenged in the least. On the contrary, I'm waiting for one of you to make an applicable point as opposed to quoting musings from well known philosophers or defining what ethical theory must do.
2) I've already agreed that ethical theory predates Christianity. So what? Tell me why you think that's so important.
3) Christianity is not a moral theory.
4) Conscience and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same.
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What have I quoted? And, what applicable point would you like for me to make?

As for Aquinas and conscience, Aquinas most certainly asserts that conscience and Holy Spirit are one and the same.
 
#137
#137
txbo said:
You have that backwards. Conscience is ones innate ability to know right from wrong. Morals are created from conscience.
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txbo said:
I would certainly say conscience is innate. I don't however know what you would consider it a separate entity of.

Your morals developing conscience is opposite of my belief. I believe people are born with an innate ability to know right from wrong.
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What is your rational for conscience being innate?

If conscience was truly innate, then why would there be a need for the Ten Commandments in your religion? If conscience was truly innate, why is there such a vast disparity in ethics/morality, not only all over the world (at the present time), but all throughout history?

I am an adherent to the blank slate theory when it comes to learned behavior. Genetic predisposition to certain behavior/tendencies does not equal learned behavior; thus, not conscience. Morality/ethics is taught via experiences, other people, and personal reflection upon both. People's conscience and guilt is born from there morality/ethics. You are not born knowing cheating is wrong. Conscience is not innate.

txbo said:
Thomas Hobbes was a philosopher probably best know for his work on natural law. In short, his theory was that in a state of nature, natural law would allow man to satisfy his own means at any expense. Social contract is the development of authorities to keep peace where citizen waive certain natural right to a sovereign in order to live peacefully together.
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I'm well aware of philosophy of Hobbs, Locke, Rousseau, and others. I just don't understand how you are trying to tie their philosophy to conscience.
 
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#139
#139
PKT_VOL said:
?...


I'm well aware of philosophy of Hobbs, Locke, Rousseau, and others. I just don't understand how you are trying to tie their philosophy to conscience.
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I didn't tie Locke to conscience. I tied him to self interest.
 
#140
#140
txbo said:
Reference his work that suggests that.
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Oh, now you want quotes of philosophical musings from philosophers, yes?

To compare the binding force of conscience and that of the command of the prelate [i.e., bishop, priest, pope, etc.] is nothing other than to compare the binding force of the divine command and the command of the prelate.
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Seems to me that Aquinas is here saying that conscience and divine command are the same. Further,

It should be said that although the prelate is superior to the subject, God, under the formality of whose command conscience is bound, is greater than the prelate
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These words were written by Thomas between the years of 1256-1259, and can be found the Selected Writings of Thomas Aquinas, by Penguin Press, pages 237-238.

For other views on conscience from those considers Doctors in the Catholic Faith, we can also look at Duns Scotus. Scotus views conscience as something one has only when one has developed the habit of using reason to access truth. Seeing that Scotus is also seen, just like Aquinas, to often present truth and God, and Jesus and Reason as analogues, some have reasonably then applied the development of this habit to Holy Spirit. If you are interested in these thoughts, I suggest Duns Scotus: On the Will and Morality by CUA Press (specifically pages 160-180). But, again, I won't quote his philosophical musings...
 
#141
#141
PKT_VOL said:
What is your rational for conscience being innate?

.....
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Personally, my belief is one of faith, derived from Scripture. In discussions of religious freedom such as this, that's not appropriate. I'd point to the chain of influences to our Declaration of Independence and first amendment. Locke was certainly the most influential natural law philosopher to Jefferson.
 
#142
#142
PKT_VOL said:
If conscience was truly innate, then why would there be a need for the Ten Commandments in your religion? .....
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Law, such as the Ten Commandments, is a gift that serves three purposes..... A mirror, a curb and a guide.
 
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#143
#143
therealUT said:
Oh, now you want quotes of philosophical musings from philosophers, yes?



Seems to me that Aquinas is here saying that conscience and divine command are the same. Further,



These words were written by Thomas between the years of 1256-1259, and can be found the Selected Writings of Thomas Aquinas, by Penguin Press, pages 237-238.

For other views on conscience from those considers Doctors in the Catholic Faith, we can also look at Duns Scotus. Scotus views conscience as something one has only when one has developed the habit of using reason to access truth. Seeing that Scotus is also seen, just like Aquinas, to often present truth and God, and Jesus and Reason as analogues, some have reasonably then applied the development of this habit to Holy Spirit. If you are interested in these thoughts, I suggest Duns Scotus: On the Will and Morality by CUA Press (specifically pages 160-180). But, again, I won't quote his philosophical musings...
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He's not saying, nor ever said that conscience is the Holy Spirit. Certainly conscience is influenced by God. That would imply that even nonbelievers have the Holy Spirit or nonbelievers have no conscience. Neither of which is consistent with any Christian Theology that I am familiar with.
 
#144
#144
txbo said:
He's not saying, nor ever said that conscience is the Holy Spirit. Certainly conscience is influenced by God. That would imply that even nonbelievers have the Holy Spirit or nonbelievers have no conscience. Neither of which is consistent with any Christian Theology that I am familiar with.
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So, the Holy Spirit is not God speaking inside of us? And, if the Holy Spirit is God speaking inside of us, then, how is this distinct from 'divine command'? If not, then my interpretation of Aquinas is quite coherent and reasonable. If it is distinct, then what is the distinction?
 
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#145
#145
txbo said:
He's not saying, nor ever said that conscience is the Holy Spirit. Certainly conscience is influenced by God. That would imply that even nonbelievers have the Holy Spirit or nonbelievers have no conscience. Neither of which is consistent with any Christian Theology that I am familiar with.
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As for the implication, the Catechism explicitly states that the Holy Spirit is the first to awaken the faith in us (684). Can we believe in God (and Jesus) without faith? Can we believe with a faith that is not 'awake'? Answering 'yes' to those questions seems more absurd than the implication you think is inconsistent with 'any Christian Theology that [you] are familiar with'. The implication that the Holy Spirit is in all mankind is not foreign to Catholicism.
 
#146
#146
And, to forestall any potential objection that these stances by the Catholic Church and by Doctors of the Catholic Faith are complicated and puzzling, I absolutely cede the point. They are puzzling. However, the presence of a puzzle does not imply the non-existence of a solution; on the contrary, they imply that if a solution exists, it is most likely complex and neither simple nor self-evident. Thus, the puzzling and complicated point is granted. Hence, Catholic theologians have spent centuries on these puzzles.

Of the possible solutions, one is that while the Holy Spirit, since it serves to awaken faith in Jesus, cannot exist prior to Jesus; thus, if the Holy Spirit is conscience, then neither exist in humans prior to the existence of Jesus.

Another solution, building off the previous, is that conscience is a necessary condition of personhood, thus persons have always had conscience. This can be said without rejecting the first solution, but by insisting that Jesus has existed since the beginning of time, he just was not instantiated in human form until 2,000 years ago (but, that makes no difference to the existence of the Holy Spirit).

These two possible solutions do not exhaust the list of possible solutions, and disagreements exist between Catholic and Protestant theologians, as well as between Catholic and Catholic theologians.
 
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#147
#147
therealUT said:
As for the implication, the Catechism explicitly states that the Holy Spirit is the first to awaken the faith in us (684). Can we believe in God (and Jesus) without faith? Can we believe with a faith that is not 'awake'? Answering 'yes' to those questions seems more absurd than the implication you think is inconsistent with 'any Christian Theology that [you] are familiar with'. The implication that the Holy Spirit is in all mankind is not foreign to Catholicism.
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What that is referring to is something completely different. That is an element of the progression of justification.
The implication is that faith is a gift of God not something we come about on our own. He draws us to him.
 
#148
#148
therealUT said:
And, to forestall any potential objection that these stances by the Catholic Church and by Doctors of the Catholic Faith are complicated and puzzling, I absolutely cede the point. They are puzzling. However, the presence of a puzzle does not imply the non-existence of a solution; on the contrary, they imply that if a solution exists, it is most likely complex and neither simple nor self-evident. Thus, the puzzling and complicated point is granted. Hence, Catholic theologians have spent centuries on these puzzles.

Of the possible solutions, one is that while the Holy Spirit, since it serves to awaken faith in Jesus, cannot exist prior to Jesus; thus, if the Holy Spirit is conscience, then neither exist in humans prior to the existence of Jesus.

Another solution, building off the previous, is that conscience is a necessary condition of personhood, thus persons have always had conscience. This can be said without rejecting the first solution, but by insisting that Jesus has existed since the beginning of time, he just was not instantiated in human form until 2,000 years ago (but, that makes no difference to the existence of the Holy Spirit).

These two possible solutions do not exhaust the list of possible solutions, and disagreements exist between Catholic and Protestant theologians, as well as between Catholic and Catholic theologians.
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I'm not Catholic and I tend to leave explanations of their faith to people that live it. I would describe it less as puzzling and complicated and more as mysterious. I'd also say that their is an element of paradox that we accept.

It's extremely difficult to make sense of theology without a true desire to understand Scripture. In other wards many try to make scripture fit theology when theology should fit scripture.
 
#149
#149
txbo said:
I'm not Catholic and I tend to leave explanations of their faith to people that live it. I would describe it less as puzzling and complicated and more as mysterious. I'd also say that their is an element of paradox that we accept.

It's extremely difficult to make sense of theology without a true desire to understand Scripture. In other wards many try to make scripture fit theology when theology should fit scripture.
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It's not possible when you have books so ambiguous like the Bible or Q'uran. Leads me to believe that the authors designed them to be that way.
 
#150
#150
therealUT said:
Another solution, building off the previous, is that conscience is a necessary condition of personhood, thus persons have always had conscience. This can be said without rejecting the first solution, but by insisting that Jesus has existed since the beginning of time, he just was not instantiated in human form until 2,000 years ago (but, that makes no difference to the existence of the Holy Spirit).

....
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This is where you have to accept paradox and infallibility of scripture. Belief in one triune God in three forms requires acceptance of paradox. Scripture tells us Jesus was there from the beginning.
 
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