Recruiting Forum: Football Talk IX

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#402
#402
DaddyChad said:
Assuming we had a transfer or something that counted against some of those classes because this isn't adding up.

Has Fortenberry ever been wrong on the numbers? Where is Hooker getting 34?
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Maybe there are 4 who aren't considered "recruited" athlete's who are going to get some other kind of scholarship? See the info below, this would allow us to get more than 30.

From VQ poster

Important points:

Initial counters are capped at 25. Tennessee is going to back count 5 to last class, and will count 25 in this class. This much is, I believe, readily accepted and known.

But what is an "initial counter." Counters are normally any student-athlete who receives an athletic scholarship, partial or full. But in sports like football and basketball, counters also include any student-athlete who was recruited and who receives financial aid from the school. This is to prevent abuse by schools who might have "walk-ons" who were recruited then given "non-athletic" scholarships from the financial aid office.

So what is a recruited athlete? A recruited athlete is someone who takes an official visit to the campus, has in-person contact with a coach off-campus, or receives a National Letter of Intent or other written athletic scholarship offer. However, the following will not result in the NCAA considering a prospect a "recruited athlete": Coaches can evaluate prospects any number of times. Coaches can call prospects any number of times. Prospects can take unlimited unofficial visits to the campus. Coaches can make verbal scholarship offers to prospects. None of this would result in the athlete being "recruited."

Athletes who are not "recruited" can receive non-athletically related aid without restriction. I don't know if any of the commits can get any academic scholarships or other forms of aid, but I played a D1 sport on a full academic scholarship (actually got paid after all expenses) from the Lottery Scholarship and University Scholarship and no athletic scholarship. Who knows, with the increased cooperation between the athletic department and academics...

Another way, which I believe is the more likely way.

In football, an athlete generally counts as an initial counter in the academic year he first receives an athletic scholarship. The biggest exception is for midyear enrollees, where the school typically has some flexibility to push the initial counter back to the previous year. But there is a rarer exception that could help athletes enrolling at any time.


An athlete can be put on scholarship and not be counted as an initial counter until the following year if: He was not recruited(defined earlier) and he signs the scholarship after the start of fall practice.



The athlete would count against the limit of 85 overall scholarships that year. But he would not count against the 25 initial counters until the following year. Maybe this is why some guys are signing the financial aid agreements?



I would pay attention to any guys who don't take official visits.
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More from the website athleticscholarships.net

15.5.6.3.4 Nonrecruited Student-Athlete Receiving Institutional Financial Aid. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete not recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the institution who receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) after beginning football practice becomes a counter but need not be counted as an initial counter until the next academic year if the institution has reached its initial limit for the year in question. However, the student-athlete shall be considered in the total counter limit for the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

The question then becomes "How does Bylaw 15.02.8 define a recruited student athlete?" Here's what it says:

15.02.8 Recruited Student-Athlete. For purposes of Bylaw 15, a recruited student-athlete is a student athlete who, as a prospective student-athlete: (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

(a) Was provided an official visit to the institution's campus;

(b) Had an arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with a member of the institution's coaching staff (including a coach's arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with the prospective student-athlete or the prospective student-athlete's parents, relatives or legal guardians); or

(c) Was issued a National Letter of Intent or a written offer of athletically related financial aid by the institution for a regular academic term.


It may be important to note here that this definition was only added to Article 15 - Financial Aid in 2011. A definition already existed and is still included in Article 13 - Recruiting which appears to be much broader. Here's what it says.

13.02.13 Recruiting. Recruiting is any solicitation of a prospective student-athlete or a prospective student athlete's relatives (or legal guardians) by an institutional staff member or by a representative of the institution's athletics interests for the purpose of securing the prospective student-athlete's enrollment and ultimate participation in the institution's intercollegiate athletics program.



13.02.13.1 Recruited Prospective Student-Athlete. Actions by staff members or athletics representatives that cause a prospective student-athlete to become a recruited prospective student-athlete at that institution are: (Revised: 1/10/90, 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94, 1/10/05 effective 8/01/05)

(a) Providing the prospective student-athlete with an official visit; (Adopted: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94)

(b) Having an arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with the prospective student-athlete or the prospective student-athlete's parents, relatives or legal guardians; (Adopted: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94)

(c) Initiating or arranging a telephone contact with the prospective student-athlete, the prospective student athlete's relatives or legal guardians on more than one occasion for the purpose of recruitment; or (Revised: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94)

(d) Issuing a National Letter of Intent or the institution's written offer of athletically related financial aid to the prospective student-athlete. Issuing a written offer of athletically related financial aid to a prospective student-athlete to attend a summer session prior to full-time enrollment does not cause the prospective student-athlete to become recruited. (Adopted: 1/10/05 effective 8/1/05, Revised: 12/13/05)


The exclusion of language similar to 13.02.13 and item c) under 13.02.13.1 when determining what defines a recruited student athlete for the purposes of counter status seems significant. It appears as though an extremely carefully run recruitment with some understanding and participation by the prospect could potentially keep said prospect from being classified as a recruited student athlete under the 15.02.8 definition, thus delaying their initial counter status under 15.5.6.3.4.
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#403
#403
VolinArizona said:
Let me break this down again, with more info than I had in July. For sake of argument, let's say there is NOT a 5 EE backcount limit, ok?

In 2008 and 2009, there were no MAX signing rules in place by the SEC.

2008 - 18 signees
2009 - 22 signees

For 2010 and 2011, the NCAA and SEC implemented the 28 signee rule.

2010 - 27 signees
2011 - 27 signees

In 2012, the SEC implemented the 25 signee rule.

2012 - 22 signees
2013 - 22 signees (this includes Vickers and Johnson, but not Swafford due to GS)

Now, let's look at the math for the first three years.

2008 - 18
2009 - 22
2010 - 27 (this class includes EIGHT [8] EEs that were most likely backcounted to 2009) bringing new totals to:

2008 - 18
2009 - 30 (22 + 8 EEs from 2010; remember, there was limit for that class)
2010 - 19 (27 - 8 EEs backcounted to 2009)

Let's keep moving.

2010 - 19
2011 - 27
2012 - 22

But wait. The 2011 class has SIX [6] EEs to backcount. New numbers:

2010 - 25 (19 + 6 EEs from 2011 class)
2011 - 21
2012 - 22

The 2012 class has SIX [6] EEs, however. Watch what happens:

2010 - 25
2011 - 27 (21 + 6 EEs from 2012; we are under the 28 limit)
2012 - 16

Here is the payoff.

2011 - 27 (max was 28)
2012 - 16
2013 - 22

2013 brought us FIVE [5] EEs that could easily roll back.

2011 - 27
2012 - 21 (16 + 5 EEs; way under the 25 limit)
2013 - 17

So, if there is NO MAXIMUM on how many EEs you can backcount, Tennessee could sign the 25 allotted from the SEC + 8 EEs to backcount, which is

33!!!!

Now, we greyshirted Mr. Swafford. If Butch gives him that scholarship, it would come from the 2014 class, meaning we have:

32!!!!!

But why would Butch say the number is 30? Well, because maybe THERE IS a maximum on backcounting early enrollees.

Or he isn't stupid enough to give away his exact number.

Or he changed his mind.

Or he wanted to save room for 2015's class because we WILL continue to get top talent, and WILL have a better class in 2015 if we have enough room to make an impact.

In the end, the recruiting numbers are confusing. However, if there is a 5 EE limit on backcounting, it becomes clear we have 30 to sign.

I hope this makes sense.
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Best explanation Ever! Thanks Volin!!! :good!:
 
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#404
#404
Hey I know, Gruden to the Titans next year. I am just totally over the Munchak era. I wish they would get someone to ignite the team and fans like Butch.
 
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#409
#409
Excuse me while I go grumble about firing Alan Lowry again...and being 1 for 6 on challenges...

Don't think Munch has any leash left.
 
#413
#413
I'd allow Gruden any day of the week. But realistically I'd take Lovie Smith and call it a day. That man can coach football. Over the test of time the Bears will see the error in their ways by letting him go.
 
#414
#414
Nashvegas31 said:
Might as well be
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I missed the first ten minutes of the first half, came in with six minutes to go in the 3rd, and I was like "WHAT THE HELL?!?"

CJ was lighting it up in the first half and then he gets FOUR touches in the entire second half?!?

I'm over Munch & Loggins. Time to move on...."soon."
 
#417
#417
Aye why no one updates the News Sticky with any good news fromVQ and 24/7 articles like they did in years past? Only thing that gets posted in there is commit news.. That garbage.. Someone pick up the slack..
 
#418
#418
I don’t know if any one has ever posted this or not, but I think it’s interesting.

Cincinnati placed 6 players on the ESPN All Big East First Team in 2012

TE Travis Kelse SR recruited as a rivals 5.2 ATH
OT Eric Lefeld SO recruited as a rivals 5.4 SDE
OG Austen Bujnoch JR recruited as a rivals 5.6 OT
DE Dan Giordano SR recruited as a rivals 5.5 DE
LB Greg Blair SR recruited as a 5.2 JUCO LB
RB George Winn SR recruited as a 5.2 RB

ESPN.com All-Big East team - Big East Blog - ESPN

Cincinnati placed 5 players on the ESPN All Big East First Team in 2011

RB Isaiah Pead SR recruited as a rivals 5.7 RB
P Pat O’Donnell JR recruited as a rivals 5.1 K
OG Randy Martinez SR recruited as a rivals 5.4 WDE
DE Derek Wolfe SR recruited as a rivals 5.2 DT
LB J.K. Schaffer SR recruited as a rivals 5.2 OLB

ESPN.com All-Big East team - College Football Nation Blog - ESPN

BEARCATS IN THE NFL (that played under this staff)

Armon Binns (WR, 2007-10) Miami Dolphins
Dan Glordano (LB, 2009-12) Arizona Cardinals
Vidal Hazelton (WR, 2010) New York Jets
Sean Hoosey (OL, 2010-12) St. Louis Rams
John Hughes (DT, 2008-11) Cleveland Browns
Jason Kelce (C, 2007-10) Philadelphia Eagles
Travis Kelce (TE, 2009, 2011-12) Kansas City Chiefs
Isaiah Pead (RB, 2008-11) St. Louis Rams
Adrien Robinson (WR, 2008-11) New York Giants
J.K. Schaffer (LB, 2008-11) Cincinnati Bengals
Kenbrell Thompkins (WR, 2011-12) New England Patriots
Derek Wolfe (DE, 2008-11) Denver Broncos

Bearcats' NFL Update - GoBEARCATS.com - The Official Athletics Website of the University of Cincinnati

And of course I will add the famous one:

OT Eric Fisher CMU rivals 5.2 OT #1 Pick by Kansas City Chiefs in 2013 NFL Draft

Eric Fisher Draft Profile
 
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#419
#419
ATHLON Sports has named a top 20 list for worst college coaches at great programs.
Here are a few on the list:
1. Derek Dooley, Tennessee
7. Mike Dubose, Alabama
8. Mike Shula, Alabama
10. Ray Goff, Georgia
17. Ron Zook, Florida
18. Will Muschamp, Florida
19. Lane Kiffen, USC

Really proud that we got number one on the list.
 
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#420
#420
OldVol49vfl said:
ATHLON Sports has named a top 20 list for worst college coaches at great programs.
Here are a few on the list:
1. Derek Dooley, Tennessee
7. Mike Dubose, Alabama
8. Mike Shula, Alabama
10. Ray Goff, Georgia
17. Ron Zook, Florida
18. Will Muschamp, Florida
19. Lane Kiffen, USC

Really proud that we got number one on the list.
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Rich Rod
Kiffen

My top two.
 
#421
#421
OldVol49vfl said:
ATHLON Sports has named a top 20 list for worst college coaches at great programs.
Here are a few on the list:
1. Derek Dooley, Tennessee
7. Mike Dubose, Alabama
8. Mike Shula, Alabama
10. Ray Goff, Georgia
17. Ron Zook, Florida
18. Will Muschamp, Florida
19. Lane Kiffen, USC

Really proud that we got number one on the list.
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I think the jury is still out on Muschamp.
 
#422
#422
OldVol49vfl said:
ATHLON Sports has named a top 20 list for worst college coaches at great programs.
Here are a few on the list:
1. Derek Dooley, Tennessee
7. Mike Dubose, Alabama
8. Mike Shula, Alabama
10. Ray Goff, Georgia
17. Ron Zook, Florida
18. Will Muschamp, Florida
19. Lane Kiffen, USC

Really proud that we got number one on the list.
Click to expand...

Thanks again Mike, you rock.
 
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#424
#424
Most of the staff is out on the road recruiting this weekend. I liked this about Thig from VQ...

Look for Tommy Thigpen to log some time in North Carolina and again Nashville. Interestingly, Thigpen was given the option to stay in town for part of the weekend as he has been out more than any other coach. But Thigpen declined that option saying there was recruiting work to be done and that he needed to be on the road.
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