Recruiting Forum: Football Talk IX

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#376
#376
DaddyChad said:
Arrived at how? Again we took 21 in 2013 and 21 in 2012 per Rivals. We had 5 early enrollees from last year's class, minimum 4 of them could backcount to the previous class assuming none of that class backcounted to the previous. So bare minimum that 17 counters against last year's 25 which leaves 8 spots that can be backcounted.
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My theory on how he got the numbers.

According to rivals, we SIGNED 22 in 2012 and 22 in 2013. Signing is what is limited. It doesn't matter whether they enroll or not the NLI limits only care about signatures. You can only backcount to a class if there is space in that class beneath the signing limit. We could backcount 3 EE's from 2013 to 2012. There wasn't enough room left in the 2012 signing class to backcount all 5 EE's last year. So 2013's class ends up being 19. Then we signed Johnathon Johnson after NSD and rivals doesn't account for that. That moves us up to 20 for 2013. We now have 5 open slots in the 2013 class that we can backcount 5 EE's to this year. The remaining EE's will have to count against the 2014 25 limit.

Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2012 Tennessee Commitments

Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2013 Tennessee Commitments
 
#377
#377
VolinArizona said:
Let me break this down again, with more info than I had in July. For sake of argument, let's say there is NOT a 5 EE backcount limit, ok?

In 2008 and 2009, there were no MAX signing rules in place by the SEC.

2008 - 18 signees
2009 - 22 signees

For 2010 and 2011, the NCAA and SEC implemented the 28 signee rule.

2010 - 27 signees
2011 - 27 signees

In 2012, the SEC implemented the 25 signee rule.

2012 - 22 signees
2013 - 22 signees (this includes Vickers and Johnson, but not Swafford due to GS)

Now, let's look at the math for the first three years.

2008 - 18
2009 - 22
2010 - 27 (this class includes EIGHT [8] EEs that were, most likely backcounted to 2009) bringing new totals to:

2008 - 18
2009 - 30 (22 + 8 EEs from 2010; remember, there was limit for that class)
2010 - 19 (27 - 8 EEs backcounted to 2009)

Let's keep moving.

2010 - 19
2011 - 27
2012 - 22

But wait. The 2011 class has SIX [6] EEs to backcount. New numbers:

2010 - 25 (19 + 6 EEs from 2011 class)
2011 - 21
2012 - 22

The 2012 class has SIX [6] EEs, however. Watch what happens:

2010 - 25
2011 - 27 (21 + 6 EEs from 2012; we are under the 28 limit)
2012 - 16

Here is the payoff.

2011 - 27 (max was 28)
2012 - 16
2013 - 22

2013 brought us FIVE [5] EEs that could easily roll back.

2011 - 27
2012 - 21 (16 + 5 EEs; way under the 25 limit)
2013 - 17

So, if there is NO MAXIMUM on how many EEs you can backcount, Tennessee could sign the 25 allotted from the SEC + 8 EEs to backcount, which is

33!!!!

Now, we greyshirted Mr. Swafford. If Butch gives him that scholarship, it would come from the 2014 class, meaning we have:

32!!!!!

But why would Butch say the number is 30? Well, because maybe THERE IS a maximum on backcounting early enrollees.

Or he isn't stupid enough to give away his exact number.

Or he changed his mind.

Or he wanted to save room for 2015's class because we WILL continue to get top talent, and WILL have a better class in 2015 if we have enough room to make an impact.

In the end, the recruiting numbers are confusing. However, if there is a 5 EE limit on backcounting, it becomes clear we have 30 to sign.

I hope this makes sense.
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Throw in a couple of made up injuries and Saban would be proud
 
#378
#378
WesTnVol said:
Guy`s CBJ has got this!!!!

30+8= 30 common core math you just have to try to get credit.
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Al-bundy-ed-oneill-animated-gif-6.gif
 
#379
#379
ChattaTNVol said:
My theory on how he got the numbers.

According to rivals, we SIGNED 22 in 2012 and 22 in 2013. Signing is what is limited. It doesn't matter whether they enroll or not the NLI limits only care about signatures. You can only backcount to a class if there is space in that class beneath the signing limit. We could backcount 3 EE's from 2013 to 2012. There wasn't enough room left in the 2012 signing class to backcount all 5 EE's last year. So 2013's class ends up being 19. Then we signed Johnathon Johnson after NSD and rivals doesn't account for that. That moves us up to 20 for 2013. We now have 5 open slots in the 2013 class that we can backcount 5 EE's to this year. The remaining EE's will have to count against the 2014 25 limit.

Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2012 Tennessee Commitments

Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2013 Tennessee Commitments
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You didn't read my post.
 
#381
#381
After listening to Erik Ainge show yesterday they described it as we can sign 30 this year with 5 back counts. However any player that is an early enrollee can sign also as long as under 85 limit. That's the way I understood it

So if we have 50 on scholarship and sign 30 this year we could sign 5 more to get to 85 ad long as they are early enrolled
 
#382
#382
VolinArizona said:
Let me break this down again, with more info than I had in July. For sake of argument, let's say there is NOT a 5 EE backcount limit, ok?

In 2008 and 2009, there were no MAX signing rules in place by the SEC.

2008 - 18 signees
2009 - 22 signees

For 2010 and 2011, the NCAA and SEC implemented the 28 signee rule.

2010 - 27 signees
2011 - 27 signees

In 2012, the SEC implemented the 25 signee rule.

2012 - 22 signees
2013 - 22 signees (this includes Vickers and Johnson, but not Swafford due to GS)

Now, let's look at the math for the first three years.

2008 - 18
2009 - 22
2010 - 27 (this class includes EIGHT [8] EEs that were most likely backcounted to 2009) bringing new totals to:

2008 - 18
2009 - 30 (22 + 8 EEs from 2010; remember, there was limit for that class)
2010 - 19 (27 - 8 EEs backcounted to 2009)

Let's keep moving.

2010 - 19
2011 - 27
2012 - 22

But wait. The 2011 class has SIX [6] EEs to backcount. New numbers:

2010 - 25 (19 + 6 EEs from 2011 class)
2011 - 21
2012 - 22

The 2012 class has SIX [6] EEs, however. Watch what happens:

2010 - 25
2011 - 27 (21 + 6 EEs from 2012; we are under the 28 limit)
2012 - 16

Here is the payoff.

2011 - 27 (max was 28)
2012 - 16
2013 - 22

2013 brought us FIVE [5] EEs that could easily roll back.

2011 - 27
2012 - 21 (16 + 5 EEs; way under the 25 limit)
2013 - 17

So, if there is NO MAXIMUM on how many EEs you can backcount, Tennessee could sign the 25 allotted from the SEC + 8 EEs to backcount, which is

33!!!!

Now, we greyshirted Mr. Swafford. If Butch gives him that scholarship, it would come from the 2014 class, meaning we have:

32!!!!!

But why would Butch say the number is 30? Well, because maybe THERE IS a maximum on backcounting early enrollees.

Or he isn't stupid enough to give away his exact number.

Or he changed his mind.

Or he wanted to save room for 2015's class because we WILL continue to get top talent, and WILL have a better class in 2015 if we have enough room to make an impact.

In the end, the recruiting numbers are confusing. However, if there is a 5 EE limit on backcounting, it becomes clear we have 30 to sign.

I hope this makes sense.
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is this including Vickers and Johnson?
 
#383
#383
PassedOutAwake said:
is this including Vickers and Johnson?
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Also, as Woodberry said, schools may be able to start the backcount math earlier than 2008, which would free up a few more. There's no official year that the backcount math can start at, so the real answer is between schools and the ncaa.
 
#385
#385
We need to identify some (really) early enrollees that can start this week. We need all the help we can get to beat Vandy and Kentucky and get to a bowl game.

Come on, Butch. Make it happen!

I don't want to spend another bowl season not being able to watch my Vols! There's only so much satisfaction I can get simply rooting against the teams I hate...
 
#387
#387
DaddyChad said:
Assuming we had a transfer or something that counted against some of those classes because this isn't adding up.

Has Fortenberry ever been wrong on the numbers? Where is Hooker getting 34?
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Again, this where I think Fort may be getting his number. There was no limit before 2011. You sign as many as you wanted. In 2011 there was a limit of 28 imposed but if you had signed a smaller class the previous year you could backcount early enrollees into that smaller class as long as you didn't exceed the limit of 28. I know that the 2010 class didn't have a limit at the time but assume it did as far as 2011 backcounting is concerned. Okay, so 2010 is the anchor year for backcounting. Farther beyond that I've not been able to find anything from research to suggest it existed. In 2010 we signed 28 (Darr is not listed as signed on Rivals but he signed). In 2011 we signed 27 plus Bullock = 28. So there was no space available for backcounts in either 2011 or 2012. In 2012 we signed 22 leaving 3 spaces open. We backcounted 3 of our EEs last year so that dropped the class size down to 19 and then we added Johnson which got us to 20 and left 5 spaces open for this year that can be used for backcounts. That's how I think fort got his number.

Hooker probably doesn't include Johnson or Vickers and he probably backcounts all 5 EE's from last year. So 21-5 = 16. 25-16=9. 25+9=34. If this is what he's doing it appears inconsistent with the rules.

I think Fort is right but I don't know for certain. Only Butch knows and he said 30. :)

edit: for clarification I should have added in 2012 the signing limit was lowered to 25.
 
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#388
#388
I posted my 32 or 33 theory, and Larry pretty much summed it up nicely over on TOS....


LWSVOL said:
2008 class
I know that there was a full roster of 85 players in 2008 so we could not back count players to 2008. I just remember that being an issue at that time.

2009
So none of 2009 class was back counted. there were 23 from class got on campus so that left 2 spots to use

2010
there were 8 EE players. 2 of those could be back counted to the 2 open spots. There were 4 non-qualifiers so with signing 28 - 4 leaves 24 minus 2 back counters with 22

2011
I can't recall all the early entry players but we would have needed 4 to back count. I assume we had 4. We signed 28 with one non-qualifier. 27 - 4 leaves 23. 2 spots to back count in 2012.

2012
we signed 22 and Bourque left before going on scholarship leaving 21. this means if 2 back counted, then should have had 6 for 2013 backcount.

2013
Not sure why and I challenged this several times last spring but Tennessee football administration stated time after time, they could only back count 2 spots to 2012 class. Maybe it was walk-ons put on scholarship that had to be initial counters. Maybe it was an 85 roster thing. I was never able to get an answer to the question of how they came up with 2. So, we signed 23 and released Lee. left 22 - 2 for 20. leaves 5 openings for 2014 back count number.


that is he best I can recollect going back that far. It really doesn't matter how far back we go. If Tennessee ONLY used 2 back counts from 2013 to 2012, then 5 is the max number they can back count on 2013 class. They have said, we only had 2 pots to back count.
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#389
#389
buffaloblue said:
I posted my 32 or 33 theory, and Larry pretty much summed it up nicely over on TOS....

Originally Posted by LWSVOL

2008 class
I know that there was a full roster of 85 players in 2008 so we could not back count players to 2008. I just remember that being an issue at that time.

2009
So none of 2009 class was back counted. there were 23 from class got on campus so that left 2 spots to use

2010
there were 8 EE players. 2 of those could be back counted to the 2 open spots. There were 4 non-qualifiers so with signing 28 - 4 leaves 24 minus 2 back counters with 22

2011
I can't recall all the early entry players but we would have needed 4 to back count. I assume we had 4. We signed 28 with one non-qualifier. 27 - 4 leaves 23. 2 spots to back count in 2012.

2012
we signed 22 and Bourque left before going on scholarship leaving 21. this means if 2 back counted, then should have had 6 for 2013 backcount.

2013
Not sure why and I challenged this several times last spring but Tennessee football administration stated time after time, they could only back count 2 spots to 2012 class. Maybe it was walk-ons put on scholarship that had to be initial counters. Maybe it was an 85 roster thing. I was never able to get an answer to the question of how they came up with 2. So, we signed 23 and released Lee. left 22 - 2 for 20. leaves 5 openings for 2014 back count number.


that is he best I can recollect going back that far. It really doesn't matter how far back we go. If Tennessee ONLY used 2 back counts from 2013 to 2012, then 5 is the max number they can back count on 2013 class. They have said, we only had 2 pots to back count.
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Buffaloblue could you pass this quote to Larry and ask him if it changes his math at all?

“If a player signs, he counts without regard to whether or not he actually enrolls,” SEC spokesman Charles Bloom said in an e-mail Monday. “ ‘Back counting’ is only permitted for mid-year enrollees who are able to be included as an initial counter for the academic year in which they enroll. ‘Back counting’ is an artificial term for this discussion and not accurate as the question is about the signing limit.”
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Read more here: SEC clarifies rule on ‘back-counting’ recruits | University of Georgia | Macon.com
 
#390
#390
buffaloblue said:
I posted my 32 or 33 theory, and Larry pretty much summed it up nicely over on TOS....
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What does a full roster in 2008 have to do with backcounting signees? The way I read it, you can backcount to a year where you had a full roster as long as you didn't reach the 27/25 limit that year?

And can't a coach today say that more signees from 2013 are considered back counts even of the previous coaches did not?
 
#392
#392
Anyone else at the Titan's game tonight? I'm here with some friends so if you see a young guy with brown hair, a scraggly beard, and a kaki jacket on; take a leap of faith and say my VN handle
 
#394
#394
jave36 said:
What does a full roster in 2008 have to do with backcounting signees? The way I read it, you can backcount to a year where you had a full roster as long as you didn't reach the 27/25 limit that year?

And can't a coach today say that more signees from 2013 are considered back counts even of the previous coaches did not?
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If you had a full 85, dont think you can backcount, or that was at least the impression I got.
 
#395
#395
I think this picture is begging for a caption, or to be made into some kind of Butch recruiting meme...
 

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#399
#399
shanman- said:
Butch should make a feeder system.
Recruit the top 30 to UT, and the rest to a smaller school D1 but not JUCO.
Have the team run the same system and weight regiment as UT.
Then the players all "transfer out" to UT after their 1st year...

I know it doesn't have a snowflake's chance (and dumb), but that is my idea.
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I think we used to send quite a few borderline guys to Carson-Newman.
 
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