Advanced Metrics Nonsense

#601
#601
n_huffhines said:
He was really good in those playoffs. One postseason doesn't make you an all-time great. He was pretty bad the year before in the playoffs, and they mowed right through the competition.

He rode their coat-tails because what made them a great team wasn't their scoring ability, it was their interior toughness and defense. The 88-89 team was 16th in points, 17th in assists, 25th in steals. What made the Bad Boys elite was their defensive rebounding (7th), offensive rebounding (4th), defensive FG % (2nd), FG% (5th credit to 7 players not named Isiah he shot above league average efficiency).

Isiah had little to do with what they did well as a team.
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Isiah was also the best defensive point guard of the 1980's. Him and Dumars could put intense pressure on ball handlers. That's why their defense was so good. But you wouldn't know that.

You also fail to realize that Isiah had complete control of the offense. You love some Chris Paul, but remember when DeAndre and Blake complained about not getting touches, and how he dominates the ball and kills the flow of the offense? That never happened with Isiah. He kept everyone happy, making sure everyone had enough shots. That offense ran through him. That's why they had other players with good averages. Isiah did take bad shots, yes. However, nobody ran the position like he did. He was the best two way PG of the 1980's and was a havoc on defense, something you fail to realize. And it didn't help his big man could not create a shot.

Not only that, he was the leader of that team and gave them toughness, someone the team rallied around and who they loved and adored. He's one of the NBA's greatest leaders, which was important with a team that had a lot of different personalities.

Saying that he "rode the coattails" of the Pistons is a joke and embarrassing.
 
#602
#602
zjcvols said:
Isiah was also the best defensive point guard of the 1980's. Him and Dumars could put intense pressure on ball handlers. That's why their defense was so good. But you wouldn't know that.

You also fail to realize that Isiah had complete control of the offense. You love some Chris Paul, but remember when DeAndre and Blake complained about not getting touches, and how he dominates the ball and kills the flow of the offense? That never happened with Isiah. He kept everyone happy, making sure everyone had enough shots. That offense ran through him. That's why they had other players with good averages. Isiah did take bad shots, yes. However, nobody ran the position like he did. He was the best two way PG of the 1980's and was a havoc on defense, something you fail to realize. And it didn't help his big man could not create a shot.

Not only that, he was the leader of that team and gave them toughness, someone the team rallied around and who they loved and adored. He's one of the NBA's greatest leaders, which was important with a team that had a lot of different personalities.

Saying that he "rode the coattails" of the Pistons is a joke and embarrassing.
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You ever played bill laimbeers combat basketball?
 
#603
#603
zjcvols said:
Isiah was also the best defensive point guard of the 1980's. Him and Dumars could put intense pressure on ball handlers. That's why their defense was so good. But you wouldn't know that.

You also fail to realize that Isiah had complete control of the offense. You love some Chris Paul, but remember when DeAndre and Blake complained about not getting touches, and how he dominates the ball and kills the flow of the offense? That never happened with Isiah. He kept everyone happy, making sure everyone had enough shots. That offense ran through him. That's why they had other players with good averages. Isiah did take bad shots, yes. However, nobody ran the position like he did. He was the best two way PG of the 1980's and was a havoc on defense, something you fail to realize. And it didn't help his big man could not create a shot.

Not only that, he was the leader of that team and gave them toughness, someone the team rallied around and who they loved and adored. He's one of the NBA's greatest leaders, which was important with a team that had a lot of different personalities.

Saying that he "rode the coattails" of the Pistons is a joke and embarrassing.
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You should have just lulzed and let it go like I did. I was a huge Bad Boy/Zeke fan, if they don't know, then they just don't know my dude.
 
#605
#605
zjcvols said:
Isiah was also the best defensive point guard of the 1980's. Him and Dumars could put intense pressure on ball handlers. That's why their defense was so good. But you wouldn't know that.

You also fail to realize that Isiah had complete control of the offense. You love some Chris Paul, but remember when DeAndre and Blake complained about not getting touches, and how he dominates the ball and kills the flow of the offense? That never happened with Isiah. He kept everyone happy, making sure everyone had enough shots. That offense ran through him. That's why they had other players with good averages. Isiah did take bad shots, yes. However, nobody ran the position like he did. He was the best two way PG of the 1980's and was a havoc on defense, something you fail to realize. And it didn't help his big man could not create a shot.

Not only that, he was the leader of that team and gave them toughness, someone the team rallied around and who they loved and adored. He's one of the NBA's greatest leaders, which was important with a team that had a lot of different personalities.

Saying that he "rode the coattails" of the Pistons is a joke and embarrassing.
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Says who? He was never awarded with any defensive honors.

So let's say you're right, and he did make them all shoot a high %*, that's still him just having a part in a fraction of what they did at an elite level. He gets way too much credit for those titles.

*All 7 of them shot above league average for their careers, so I don't think your theory is valid. I think they just shot high %, and it had nothing to do with Isiah.
 
#606
#606
So I did a study of the first Pistons run, compared all point guards to Zeke that either started 60 games or played 30 minutes per game. Basically starters.

Average FG%: 42.7%/Zeke FG%: 46.4
Average 3P%: 26%/Zeke 3P%: 27.3
Average APG: 7.9/Zeke APG: 8.3 (Let this be known: Only three guys averaged double digit assists and those three averaged over 12.2 per game. Zeke was 4th in APG)
Average PPG: 14.6/Zeke PPG: 18.3
Average FTA: 3.6/Zeke FTA: 4.4 (Zeke was fifth overall)

So, in their first title run, Zeke was easily a top five point guard in the years that hines has claimed Zeke was basically average. And I didn't even talk about any of his defensive accomplishments (such as the fact he averaged almost 2 per game).
 
#607
#607
n_huffhines said:
Says who? He was never awarded with any defensive honors.

So let's say you're right, and he did make them all shoot a high %*, that's still him just having a part in a fraction of what they did at an elite level. He gets way too much credit for those titles.

*All 7 of them shot above league average for their careers, so I don't think your theory is valid. I think they just shot high %, and it had nothing to do with Isiah.
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Out of curiosity, what did they shoot playing with Zeke as opposed to not playing with him? Btw Zeke got them tons of open looks.
 
#608
#608
zjcvols said:
So I did a study of the first Pistons run, compared all point guards to Zeke that either started 60 games or played 30 minutes per game. Basically starters.

Average FG%: 42.7%/Zeke FG%: 46.4
Average 3P%: 26%/Zeke 3P%: 27.3
Average APG: 7.9/Zeke APG: 8.3 (Let this be known: Only three guys averaged double digit assists and those three averaged over 12.2 per game. Zeke was 4th in APG)
Average PPG: 14.6/Zeke PPG: 18.3
Average FTA: 3.6/Zeke FTA: 4.4 (Zeke was fifth overall)

So, in their first title run, Zeke was easily a top five point guard in the years that hines has claimed Zeke was basically average. And I didn't even talk about any of his defensive accomplishments (such as the fact he averaged almost 2 per game).
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All that equals "easily top 5"? He's barely above average in the only category (assists) that really means anything in and of itself.

PPG doesn't matter because if you score 18 on 16 shots you ain't doing ****. A .460 FG% can be good or can be bad depending on what he does from the line and from 3 pt. He may be above position average in your sample here, but he is very inefficient from 3pt. FG% doesn't mean nearly as much as TS%. His FG% is actually decent, but his TS% is not good. Yeah he got 8.3 apg, but he had almost 4 topg.

BTW, where are you getting your data from? I've got that he was 9th in apg in 88-89.
 
#609
#609
Huff you're my fellow UFC dude, but I wonder how often you watch games. And I mean really watch, not watch while writing stats. Stats do not fully tell ones impact on a game.
 
#616
#616
BadJerry20 said:
Huff you're my fellow UFC dude, but I wonder how often you watch games. And I mean really watch, not watch while writing stats. Stats do not fully tell ones impact on a game.
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You think I write stats while watching the game? What do you mean by "really" watching?

All the other guys have heard it a million times, but you can't accurately assess a player by watching. You can watch a team an entire season, and you can't tell me who shot 55% and who shot 50%, but that's the difference between winning and losing. All you can tell me is who looks like they have the sweetest stroke, but that tells you nothing about how effective they are.
 
#617
#617
BTW, excluding the Grizzly fans here who can and do watch every Memphis game, I'd guess I watched more hoops than anybody on this message board this season. Maybe even more than them.

This is science. You should know how your brain works. Daniel Kahneman is an nobel prize winner who will tell you why you can't fairly assess players by watching and remembering (though he doesn't mention basketball).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgRlrBl-7Yg[/youtube]
 
#618
#618
^^IMO

original.gif
 
#619
#619
n_huffhines said:
BTW, excluding the Grizzly fans here who can and do watch every Memphis game, I'd guess I watched more hoops than anybody on this message board this season. Maybe even more than them.

This is science. You should know how your brain works. Daniel Kahneman is an nobel prize winner who will tell you why you can't fairly assess players by watching and remembering (though he doesn't mention basketball).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgRlrBl-7Yg[/youtube]
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I watched all but 8 Grizz games this year. What do you think of that!?
 
#623
#623
n_huffhines said:
BTW, excluding the Grizzly fans here who can and do watch every Memphis game, I'd guess I watched more hoops than anybody on this message board this season. Maybe even more than them.

This is science. You should know how your brain works. Daniel Kahneman is an nobel prize winner who will tell you why you can't fairly assess players by watching and remembering (though he doesn't mention basketball).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgRlrBl-7Yg[/youtube]
Click to expand...

I'd bet I watch as much as anyone here and while I appreciate the info you bring, I know that I have a good memory of the things I've seen from players over the last 15 or so years of diligently watching the NBA.

The notion that the eye test is flawed is beyond absurd.
 
#624
#624
n_huffhines said:
you think i write stats while watching the game? What do you mean by "really" watching?

All the other guys have heard it a million times, but you can't accurately assess a player by watching. You can watch a team an entire season, and you can't tell me who shot 55% and who shot 50%, but that's the difference between winning and losing. All you can tell me is who looks like they have the sweetest stroke, but that tells you nothing about how effective they are.
Click to expand...

wtf?
 
#625
#625
BadJerry20 said:
Out of curiosity, what did they shoot playing with Zeke as opposed to not playing with him? Btw Zeke got them tons of open looks.
Click to expand...

Just saw this:

Besides Rodman, all of them were within .010 of their career TS% one way or the other. It was Rodman's best season in terms of TS%. He scored 9ppg
 
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