IRS admits to targeting Conservative groups

#126
#126
lawgator1 said:
That's the evidence so far.

I am certain, however, that Issa & Co. will suggest that Hillary Clinton had something to do with it.
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I just find it hard to believe a GROUP of low to middling employees would risk their job, pension, professional license and possibly freedom. A single or maybe a couple hard core believers, sure.

They had to think or was told they were covered.
 
#127
#127
lawgator1 said:
They used those terms because of the explosion of these organizations raising money on things like Facebook, or having booths at Tea Party rallies.. and then no one knowing quite where the money went.

As I said, this is a common problem when there are issues out there that they know people get emotional about and donate, maybe not asking any of the questions they would of typical political or charitable organizations.

Again, the TPers ought to be glad that someone was looking out for them and their money, making sure that they were not defrauded by charlatans pretending to be part of the movement, who were just trying to make a buck.
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LOL, what a partisan hack.
 
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#128
#128
A new Mendoza line for naivete has been set by LG if he actually expects anyone from the Obama administration to admit this was done intentionally and/or for political reasons.
 
#129
#129
I fall somewhere in the middle on this. Was Obama involved? No. Was there another high-level person involved? Possible if not likely. This is concerning, and I'll be interested to see more details as they come out.
 
#130
#130
hog88 said:
I just find it hard to believe a GROUP of low to middling employees would risk their job, pension, professional license and possibly freedom. A single or maybe a couple hard core believers, sure.

They had to think or was told they were covered.
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I don't think they did it out of political bias. As I read what happened, they had criteria for selecting applications for review. At some point, they had this big influx of applications for 501(c)(4) status and the suspicion index was high because of concern that some of them might not be legit and were just using the name to try to gin up some dough. And so they were given special attention, then the criteria changed over time.

I certainly understand that the GOP wants to if nothing else mollify the TP base over this. I just don't want people to jump the gun that there was some sort of concerted effort by a political arm of the bureaucracy to go after a rival group.

As I say, if there were some indication their applications were actually denied at some sort of statistically significant disparity, then that would be strong evidence of it. But no one is saying that.

That they used the names of "tea party" or "patriot" or similar things is known. But that does not mean that the people that did this or okayed it were particularly against the "tea party" or the "patriots."

That is the disconnect that everyone needs to keep in mind at this point. As I say, I am sure Issa & Co. will try to find proof that it was bias-motivated. But right now there is no reason to think that.
 
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#131
#131
lawgator1 said:
I don't think they did it out of political bias. As I read what happened, they had criteria for selecting applications for review. At some point, they had this big influx of applications for 501(c)(4) status and the suspicion index was high because of concern that some of them might not be legit and were just using the name to try to gin up some dough. And so they were given special attention, then the criteria changed over time.

I certainly understand that the GOP wants to if nothing else mollify the TP base over this. I just don't want people to jump the gun that there was some sort of concerted effort by a political arm of the bureaucracy to go after a rival group.

As I say, if there were some indication their applications were actually denied at some sort of statistically significant disparity, then that would be strong evidence of it. But no one is saying that.

That they used the names of "tea party" or "patriot" or similar things is known. But that does not mean that the people that did this or okayed it were particularly against the "tea party" or the "patriots."

That is the disconnect that everyone needs to keep in mind at this point. As I say, I am sure Issa & Co. will try to find proof that it was bias-motivated. But right now there is no reason to think that.
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Ok, let's just take your position for the time being. Why, which is illegal, were the applicants pressed for their donor lists?

Is ignorance of the law or incompetence so rampant within the IRS that multiple employees did the same thing?
 
#132
#132
GoBigOrangeUT said:
I fall somewhere in the middle on this. Was Obama involved? No. Was there another high-level person involved? Possible if not likely. This is concerning, and I'll be interested to see more details as they come out.
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This is where I am leaning right now.
 
#133
#133
lawgator1 said:
Obama at news conference just said that if the IRS intentionally targeted groups for political reasons its outrageous and he won't stand for it.
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jJvkkNmR_8[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6zrrCs3AvA&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS3P_-FgiBs[/youtube]
 
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#134
#134
this admin set the tone about how the TP should be treated. It's no wonder someone would try this even if they didn't have explicit authority from a high ranking official
 
#135
#135
hog88 said:
Ok, let's just take your position for the time being. Why, which is illegal, were the applicants pressed for their donor lists?

Is ignorance of the law or incompetence so rampant within the IRS that multiple employees did the same thing?
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The donor list requests is wrong and there needs to be retraining and discipline over it. I would agree with that.

In terms of the bigger picture, don't forget that some part of this came from the Citizen's United decision. That the IRS might want to ensure that these were not used as conduits for illegal campaign contributions should come as no surprise.

As I say, however, even if their motivation was innocent, there seems little debate but that the mechanism they used was improper and needs to be fixed.
 
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#136
#136
utvolpj said:
this admin set the tone about how the TP should be treated. It's no wonder someone would try this even if they didn't have explicit authority from a high ranking official
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lulz.

I guess this is inevitably where the final GOP argument on this will land.
 
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#137
#137
of course it will get fixed. The IRS is now this country's enforcer for Obamacare. If they aren't on the level then it all goes south

no one is going down for this besides the admin's favorite target- the low-level staffer
 
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#138
#138
It is utterly absurd that LG only chooses to wait on additional evidence when its a Liberal issue but literally jumps at the chance to excoriate the GOP at even the slightest hint of some problem.
 
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#139
#139
Nothing to see here.

A top Democrat -- Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus -- also said Monday that his committee would launch a "full investigation" into the matter.

"These actions by the IRS are an outrageous abuse of power and a breach of the public's trust. Targeting groups based on their political views is not only inappropriate but it is intolerable," the Montana Democrat said in a statement. "Americans expect the IRS to do its job without passion or prejudice. We need to get to the bottom of what happened here. ... The IRS will now be the ones put under additional scrutiny."
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#140
#140
No one is going to defend this, politically.

We'll just have to wait and see what the investigations determine. And hey, if they find that there was a concerted effort to go after these groups because the folks in Cincinnati did not like them, then fire the ones responsible and put some oversight in there to make sure it never happens again.
 
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#141
#141
lawgator1 said:
No one is going to defend this, politically.

We'll just have to wait and see what the investigations determine. And hey, if they find that there was a concerted effort to go after these groups because the folks in Cincinnati did not like them, then fire the ones responsible and put some oversight in there to make sure it never happens again.
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David Plouffe laughs at you.
 
#142
#142
VOLinthaNATI said:
It is utterly absurd that LG only chooses to wait on additional evidence when its a Liberal issue but literally jumps at the chance to excoriate the GOP at even the slightest hint of some problem.
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Imo, he ruins most political threads at least on the major news items. He makes an early ludicrous post and, instead of discussing the subject, everyone gets stuck arguing semantics and pointing out his faulty logic.
 
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#144
#144
lawgator1 said:
No one is going to defend this, politically.

We'll just have to wait and see what the investigations determine. And hey, if they find that there was a concerted effort to go after these groups because the folks in Cincinnati did not like them, then fire the ones responsible and put some oversight in there to make sure it never happens again.
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Fire them? Wouldn't prosecution be more like it?
 
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#148
#148
Vol Main said:
"Obama... said that he learned of the IRS focus on conservative groups when news reports broke on Friday. He added that anyone involved needs to be 'held fully accountable.' Obama says he has 'no patience for it' and will not tolerate a specific targeting of groups."

Obama: IRS Focus on Conservative Groups 'Outrageous' - Yahoo! Finance
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He also used a big "if".

“If, in fact, IRS personnel engaged in the kind of practices that have been reported on and were intentionally targeting conservative groups, then that is outrageous, and there is no place for it, and they have to be held fully accountable,”

Read more: President Obama:
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The IRS has admitted that they did target these groups.
Why the qualifier?

I also question his comment that he first learned of this from the news report on Friday eventhough this has been going on for a while and had been under investigation.
 
#150
#150
volinbham said:
He also used a big "if".



The IRS has admitted that they did target these groups.
Why the qualifier?
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Motive matters on this one.

While it was wrong to treat them differently for any reason (even if legitimate concerns about fraud), it is really bad to have done so out of political bias.
 
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