Another Priest Bites the Dust

#4
#4
Cardinal steps down amid sexual claims | News24

Is there a rule that a certain percent of Roman Catholic Priest be Gay or Pedophiles ?

The percentage (0.3-0.5%) is still less than the percentage among the general population (anywhere between 1-3%).

The problem is that the Catholic Church has failed to handle these matters appropriately in the eyes of the general public.
 
#7
#7
The percentage (0.3-0.5%) is still less than the percentage among the general population (anywhere between 1-3%).

The problem is that the Catholic Church has failed to handle these matters appropriately in the eyes of the general public.

I think there's something to be said for ethics.
 
#8
#8
They have? How so?

In the eyes of the general public, by handling these matters "in-house" for the past two generations instead of turning the priests and the investigations over to state authorities. That is the nexus of many claims against the Church's handling of pedophile priests.

Now, whether one agrees that the Church ought to be handing over priests to state authorities is a separate, and interesting, argument.
 
#9
#9
I think there's something to be said for ethics.

I think a lot of the "scandal" comes from the perception that priests are better than others in society. It is a faulty perception, and one that the Church would even say is faulty.

I equate it to the perception that individuals have of the military. They inherently honor soldiers and think of soldiers as a better class of human; thus, they either deny the wrongdoings of soldiers who they try to offer some rationalization for the wrongdoing in which the soldier is not actually at fault.

Priests are human. And, there is no fail-proof system to ensure that only good men become priests.
 
#10
#10
As for this specific case, I fail to see the scandal (unless one is scandalized by hypocrisy). It seems to me that a grown-ass man attempted to make sexual advances on other grown-ass men. In that article, I read nothing of sexual assault and/or rape. It sounded like this Cardinal had tried to seduce these priests, and that he failed in his attempts.
 
#11
#11
In the eyes of the general public, by handling these matters "in-house" for the past two generations instead of turning the priests and the investigations over to state authorities. That is the nexus of many claims against the Church's handling of pedophile priests.

Now, whether one agrees that the Church ought to be handing over priests to state authorities is a separate, and interesting, argument.

Fair enough. Thanks for explaining your thoughts.
 
#13
#13
In the eyes of the general public, by handling these matters "in-house" for the past two generations instead of turning the priests and the investigations over to state authorities. That is the nexus of many claims against the Church's handling of pedophile priests.

Now, whether one agrees that the Church ought to be handing over priests to state authorities is a separate, and interesting, argument.


Why should a priest not be held responsible as any other pedophile. They should not be granted any special treatment. Any man that does such a thing is NOT a man of God. He is pretending to be in order to be put in a position of trust so he can take advantage of these children. A priest should face the same rule of law as any other pedophile.

I do not understand how a church can condone such actions by the leaders of its church. If the church was following the Word of God these men would be stripped of their priesthood. Yes the Church does condone this action by paying millions of dollars and transferring these so called priest to another parish to an entire new group of kids to molest. The actions of the church has been a disgrace.
 
#17
#17
I think a lot of the "scandal" comes from the perception that priests are better than others in society. It is a faulty perception, and one that the Church would even say is faulty.

I equate it to the perception that individuals have of the military. They inherently honor soldiers and think of soldiers as a better class of human; thus, they either deny the wrongdoings of soldiers who they try to offer some rationalization for the wrongdoing in which the soldier is not actually at fault.

Priests are human. And, there is no fail-proof system to ensure that only good men become priests.


Priest are human but they are held to a higher standard than the average member of the church. The qualifications are found in the books of Timothy and Titus of the Holy Bible. The actions these man have taken excludes them from being a priest.
 
#18
#18
Why should a priest not be held responsible as any other pedophile. They should not be granted any special treatment. Any man that does such a thing is NOT a man of God. He is pretending to be in order to be put in a position of trust so he can take advantage of these children. A priest should face the same rule of law as any other pedophile.

I do not understand how a church can condone such actions by the leaders of its church. If the church was following the Word of God these men would be stripped of their priesthood. Yes the Church does condone this action by paying millions of dollars and transferring these so called priest to another parish to an entire new group of kids to molest. The actions of the church has been a disgrace.

very well said Gramps. :good!:
 
#20
#20
Why should a priest not be held responsible as any other pedophile. They should not be granted any special treatment. Any man that does such a thing is NOT a man of God. He is pretending to be in order to be put in a position of trust so he can take advantage of these children. A priest should face the same rule of law as any other pedophile.

I do not understand how a church can condone such actions by the leaders of its church. If the church was following the Word of God these men would be stripped of their priesthood. Yes the Church does condone this action by paying millions of dollars and transferring these so called priest to another parish to an entire new group of kids to molest. The actions of the church has been a disgrace.

First, I agree that the disciplinary actions taken by the Church were neither effective nor enough.

However, I think the Church has a legitimate argument for not turning Priests over to the State. The Church (an fact, any church/religion) sees itself as higher than the State; the Church sees itself as not answering to the authority of the State but to the authority of God; and, the Church (especially an international Church) cannot maintain that the authority of the State comes from God, unless it is the Church that is bestowing said authority (Christendom and the divine right of kings).

Thus, the Church seeing its authority as higher naturally holds that it has jurisdiction, not only over its Priests but over all of its members. Insofar as any member of the Church wants to present complaints to the Church, the Church will oversee and mediate said complaints. The Church does not turn to the State in the vast majority of situations.

Thus, there is nothing inconsistent in the Church handling these investigations and these problems 'in-house'. The problem is not that the Church is not handing these individuals over to the State, the problem is that the Church is not dealing effectively with the individuals. The Church ought to remove these Priests from parishes and cloister them away in isolation (which, by the way, is not vastly different than the idea of imprisonment).

However, there also appear to be some theological reasons and beliefs for the lack of effective measures taken, which I will address with your following point:

Priest are human but they are held to a higher standard than the average member of the church. The qualifications are found in the books of Timothy and Titus of the Holy Bible. The actions these man have taken excludes them from being a priest.

You are absolutely correct. The Church holds Priests to a higher standard, and it should hold Priests to a higher standard. However, the bedrock dogma of the Catholic Church is the dogma of reconciliation. If anyone in the Church, to include Priests, confesses their sins, shows contrition, and serves their penance, then the Church views said person's past as irrelevant to their future. This is embodied in what is meant by forgiveness; one has not actually forgiven another if one still does not trust the other.

So, the Church is faced with a dilemma: do they refuse to take seriously the confession and repentance of Priests (and, what must logically follow, all penitents), and therefore protect children; or, do they take seriously the confessions and repentance of Priests, and therefore continue to place children in harm's way?

While, I think this dilemma is a very troubling dilemma for the Church, I do believe there exists at least one way around it: make the penance the removal of the priest from society (i.e., cloister the priest away in isolation). However, such a penance would have to hold not just for Priests but for all members of the Church, and it is hard to see how the Church could make life-imprisonment a penance for this act, but not for things like homicide (to include fighting unjust wars), rape, etc.

It is not as clear cut as many on the outside make it out to be. There are plenty of dogmatic complexities at issue in this problem. Personally, I think the Church ought to embrace Cardinal Shonnbrun's idea and look into the possibility of allowing, for the first time since the eleventh century, Priests to marry.
 
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#21
#21
First, I agree that the disciplinary actions taken by the Church were neither effective nor enough.

However, I think the Church has a legitimate argument for not turning Priests over to the State. The Church (an fact, any church/religion) sees itself as higher than the State; the Church sees itself as not answering to the authority of the State but to the authority of God; and, the Church (especially an international Church) cannot maintain that the authority of the State comes from God, unless it is the Church that is bestowing said authority (Christendom and the divine right of kings).

Thus, the Church seeing its authority as higher naturally holds that it has jurisdiction, not only over its Priests but over all of its members. Insofar as any member of the Church wants to present complaints to the Church, the Church will oversee and mediate said complaints. The Church does not turn to the State in the vast majority of situations.

Thus, there is nothing inconsistent in the Church handling these investigations and these problems 'in-house'. The problem is not that the Church is not handing these individuals over to the State, the problem is that the Church is not dealing effectively with the individuals. The Church ought to remove these Priests from parishes and cloister them away in isolation (which, by the way, is not vastly different than the idea of imprisonment).

However, there also appear to be some theological reasons and beliefs for the lack of effective measures taken, which I will address with your following point:



You are absolutely correct. The Church holds Priests to a higher standard, and it should hold Priests to a higher standard. However, the bedrock dogma of the Catholic Church is the dogma of reconciliation. If anyone in the Church, to include Priests, confesses their sins, shows contrition, and serves their penance, then the Church views said person's past as irrelevant to their future. This is embodied in what is meant by forgiveness; one has not actually forgiven another if one still does not trust the other.

So, the Church is faced with a dilemma: do they refuse to take seriously the confession and repentance of Priests (and, what must logically follow, all penitents), and therefore protect children; or, do they take seriously the confessions and repentance of Priests, and therefore continue to place children in harm's way?

While, I think this dilemma is a very troubling dilemma for the Church, I do believe there exists at least one way around it: make the penance the removal of the priest from society (i.e., cloister the priest away in isolation). However, such a penance would have to hold not just for Priests but for all members of the Church, and it is hard to see how the Church could make life-imprisonment a penance for this act, but not for things like homicide (to include fighting unjust wars), rape, etc.

It is not as clear cut as many on the outside make it out to be. There are plenty of dogmatic complexities at issue in this problem. Personally, I think the Church ought to embrace Cardinal Shonnbrun's idea and look into the possibility of allowing, for the first time since the eleventh century, Priests to marry.

The whole idea of adding theology into the argument clouds the issue and is one of the biggest beefs I have with any organized religion.

Society shouldn't care who this organization thinks it answers too, or what crackpot idea they have about penance. These priests broke the law and the organization they belong to tried to covered it up, swept it under the rug, etc. these priests and the church should be brought up on charges. Period.

Seriously, if this were a corporation and one of its employees were caught breaking the law and they acively covered it up, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. I see no difference, and the fact that this organization is a "church" and that somehow makes it different is absolute bull****.

All the talk of what their specific religious beliefs are and how that should play into how this is handled is nauseating.
 
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#22
#22
Most of these cases the statue of limitations has passed. So if the government can't charge them with a crime what should an organization/church do?
 
#23
#23
First, I agree that the disciplinary actions taken by the Church were neither effective nor enough.

However, I think the Church has a legitimate argument for not turning Priests over to the State. The Church (an fact, any church/religion) sees itself as higher than the State; the Church sees itself as not answering to the authority of the State but to the authority of God; and, the Church (especially an international Church) cannot maintain that the authority of the State comes from God, unless it is the Church that is bestowing said authority (Christendom and the divine right of kings).

Thus, the Church seeing its authority as higher naturally holds that it has jurisdiction, not only over its Priests but over all of its members. Insofar as any member of the Church wants to present complaints to the Church, the Church will oversee and mediate said complaints. The Church does not turn to the State in the vast majority of situations.

Thus, there is nothing inconsistent in the Church handling these investigations and these problems 'in-house'. The problem is not that the Church is not handing these individuals over to the State, the problem is that the Church is not dealing effectively with the individuals. The Church ought to remove these Priests from parishes and cloister them away in isolation (which, by the way, is not vastly different than the idea of imprisonment).

However, there also appear to be some theological reasons and beliefs for the lack of effective measures taken, which I will address with your following point:



You are absolutely correct. The Church holds Priests to a higher standard, and it should hold Priests to a higher standard. However, the bedrock dogma of the Catholic Church is the dogma of reconciliation. If anyone in the Church, to include Priests, confesses their sins, shows contrition, and serves their penance, then the Church views said person's past as irrelevant to their future. This is embodied in what is meant by forgiveness; one has not actually forgiven another if one still does not trust the other.

So, the Church is faced with a dilemma: do they refuse to take seriously the confession and repentance of Priests (and, what must logically follow, all penitents), and therefore protect children; or, do they take seriously the confessions and repentance of Priests, and therefore continue to place children in harm's way?

While, I think this dilemma is a very troubling dilemma for the Church, I do believe there exists at least one way around it: make the penance the removal of the priest from society (i.e., cloister the priest away in isolation). However, such a penance would have to hold not just for Priests but for all members of the Church, and it is hard to see how the Church could make life-imprisonment a penance for this act, but not for things like homicide (to include fighting unjust wars), rape, etc.

It is not as clear cut as many on the outside make it out to be. There are plenty of dogmatic complexities at issue in this problem. Personally, I think the Church ought to embrace Cardinal Shonnbrun's idea and look into the possibility of allowing, for the first time since the eleventh century, Priests to marry.

The Church should not see itself as higher than the State. Christ himself said to "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's". Christians are to adhere to the laws of the state.

All Christians sin daily. We all can be forgiven. We all still have to suffer the consequences of our sins. If a priest, bishop, pastor or elder of any Christian church does something that disqualifies them for holding that office the church should disqualify them.

As far as priest not being allowed to marry. This has no biblical foundation. One of the qualification stated in the bible is that a bishop or deacon should be the husband of one wife. This is an example of one of the many errors of the CC. They have these councils, make up dogma that has zero biblical backing. The CC uses the Bible as their book of guidance yet ignore it when setting dogma.
 
#24
#24
Most of these cases the statue of limitations has passed. So if the government can't charge them with a crime what should an organization/church do?

They should strip them of their priesthood instead of relocating to another parish so they can molest more children. That is common sense.

The Church has a history of protecting the pedophiles instead of the children. That is wrong.
 
#25
#25
When you get married, you devote your life to that person. When a person becomes a priest, they are marrying the church and devoting their lives to God. A priest simply doesn't have the time to run a church and a family. You are either all in or you are not.

There are people called Deacons who do basically everything a priest does in a church and they are allowed to be married. The only difference is they can't perform Eucharist
 
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