Is it Personnel or Scheme?

#53
#53
PimpVol said:
Don't need speed? Um.... next.
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You do realize that 2/3 of Seattle's LBs and 3/4 of their DBs clocked in above 4.6 in their 40'?

3 of San Fran's 4 LBs can't get under 4.6 either?

But that doesn't matter because obviously the NFL has less speed than the NCAA does, right?

Go ahead. Cite "football versus track speed" and make my point for me.
 
#54
#54
WesternKyVol said:
Our secondary and LBs have legit FCS level speed.

They are poorly coached and do not follow their assignments.

Not sure scheme is a problem, though I have always preferred a 4-3.
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Absolutely laughable...they do NOT HAVE FCS level speed...they couldn't even run down Ohio's TB with Randolph not on the field...33 is a true freshman....35 was a walk-on TB last year...Teague doesn't have SEC speed, nor does B. Brewer....Coleman is close...but has shown poor tackling and toughness...

AJ is a beast, but is too slow as a sophomore...Lathers hasn't regained his speed...:salute:
 
#55
#55
DC Vol said:
You do realize that 2/3 of Seattle's LBs and 3/4 of their DBs clocked in above 4.6 in their 40'?

3 of San Fran's 4 LBs can't get under 4.6 either?

But that doesn't matter because obviously the NFL has less speed than the NCAA does, right?

Go ahead. Cite "football versus track speed" and make my point for me.
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4.6 is pretty dern fast! How many NFL TBs have speed under 4.6? :salute:
 
#57
#57
DC Vol said:
You do realize that 2/3 of Seattle's LBs and 3/4 of their DBs clocked in above 4.6 in their 40'?

3 of San Fran's 4 LBs can't get under 4.6 either?

But that doesn't matter because obviously the NFL has less speed than the NCAA does, right?

Go ahead. Cite "football versus track speed" and make my point for me.
Click to expand...



why are we comparing ut's backers in the SEC to the Seahawks? NFL and college aren't the same games, especially when you consider the talent on the DL and DB's on pro teams. They are the best of the best.
Of course shuttle speed, reading and instinct are key, but if you see AJ and Lathers and think they have speed to cover TE's or slot wr's, you are incorrect.
 
#58
#58
DC Vol said:
You don't need speed if you have good coaching. That was my point. Not really getting what you're getting at though.
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Not trying to start something, but bama's lb's are known for their strength and speed, and Saban's not recruiting slow Big 10 lb's to make his D #1 in the country.
 
#61
#61
Spartacavolus said:
why are we comparing ut's backers in the SEC to the Seahawks? NFL and college aren't the same games, especially when you consider the talent on the DL and DB's on pro teams. They are the best of the best.
Of course shuttle speed, reading and instinct are key, but if you see AJ and Lathers and think they have speed to cover TE's or slot wr's, you are incorrect.
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It's mostly because they're very good defenses with low speed that is proven by very reliable timing. A hand-time 40' at a collegiate camp is not reliable. A Pro Day/combine time is. It simply has more reliable numbers.


And not many LBs in anywhere have speed to cover a slot WR. Seriously. If you have an LB on a slot that is going to be a bad time no matter who you are.

The problem is our players are consistently lost. Our defense looks slow against everyone. I refuse to believe that Akron has better athletes than we do. How much that comes down to player mistake or bad coaching I can't say. Our Defense is atrocious and usually for that catastrophic of a failure everyone shares blame.

A 4.7 guy that is concise is faster to the point of attack than a 4.5 guy that hesitates 1-2 seconds. In the end the 4.5 guy is moving about 1foot/sec. faster but if he hesitates that speed advantage is out the window.

Of course, we can get into semantics of pad speed and they're not starting from blocks and running on a track in a straight line but my point remains. CJ is the fastest RB in the NFL but if he hesitates for 1 second that advantage is lost.

Our D isn't concise and that's why they're slow. At least in my mind.
 
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#62
#62
Spartacavolus said:
Not trying to start something, but bama's lb's are known for their strength and speed, and Saban's not recruiting slow Big 10 lb's to make his D #1 in the country.
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I see the point you're making and I agree completely.

You have slow guys with good coaching you can have a good defense (typical Big-10, current ND, etc)

You have fast guys with decent coaching you can have a good defense (Chavis is a perfect example here)

You have fast guys with good coaching and you have a terrorizer.

I'm not saying speed has no importance. It's a part of the puzzle. It isn't everything, however.
 
#66
#66
beavbullvol said:
I've never pretended to understand football schemes, particularly on the defensive side of the ball. I'm a fan, period.

However, I like most, understand and appreciate a good athlete when I see one. That said, it appears our athletes on defense are markedly better, we just don't have enough of them. The secondary, from a speed standpoint seems to be the weak link.

Football gurus, what is it? Is the scheme that bad or am I misreading our athleticism? Or is it a combination of both?

I'll hang up and listen.
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In a 3-4 you need lineman with their hands on the ground who can take up two gaps. Linebackers must be fast, good tacklers and playmakers, and the secondary must be good cover guys because of the variations of blitz packages. We have none of the above. We don't have the roster to run this d and it might cost Dooley his job.
 
#67
#67
beavbullvol said:
I've never pretended to understand football schemes, particularly on the defensive side of the ball. I'm a fan, period.

However, I like most, understand and appreciate a good athlete when I see one. That said, it appears our athletes on defense are markedly better, we just don't have enough of them. The secondary, from a speed standpoint seems to be the weak link.

Football gurus, what is it? Is the scheme that bad or am I misreading our athleticism? Or is it a combination of both?

I'll hang up and listen.
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Question seems a bit unfair. Perhaps you should ask someone who has had experience in both areas. Nick Saban would be someone to ask. He did not start out winning all of his games, however, now he has the top rated team in the country.
 
#68
#68
Playmakers is what we are lacking on defense. A kid who wants to not only cover his assignment but one who makes a play on the ball. Safety is key in this pressure, m2m defense. The ball has hung in the air forever against our team. Nobody goes to knock it down or pick it off. MOFC is the best form of pass defense. That is what we play. But we are not staying true to the fundamentals of it. Lb's must determine run/pass quickly. Then play accordingly.
RUN DEFENSE - linebackers must defeat the offensive guards at the point of attack. If the guard gets a free release into his block the run works perfectly. See the Geogia game. If you have it DVR'd, watch their guards pull and seal our pursuit. That creates a "canally" (Merrill Hoge term). Running backs love those. They tend to go the distance.
PASS - DEFENSE linebackers must read guard again. If he is pass blocking, they must turn and get in their assigned area, quickly (nothing to do with speed, but quickness). If you have Alabama game DVR'd, look at Mosley's pick of Bray. He read pass like he was taught (by Sunseri) and made a beeline to his assigned pass coverage area. Bray threw it right to him! Bray saw him late and tried to pull it back. But could not. Pick for Bama.
SO - this scheme works perfectly. It must be executed properly. By the players on the field. Cant hide bad players in this D. Everyone has a resposibility. A place to be. If they are not there we will look like we look now. Like a lost ball in high weeds.
SAFETY PLAY - again, go to Alabama game. Bray is picked in the endzone. Why? Disciplined safety. First he took away the wideout over the top to his left. The corner played it underneath so he Bray could not hit the short breaking route. Safety had the topside coverage. With no short route available, Bray did what he should. Go to the post where the safety vacated. Pig was open too. But two things led to the pick. One was a late inaccurate throw, which caused Pig to stop and wait on the ball. The other was more important to me. The safety knew the route combo. He knew what Bray would do based on what he saw. When the first read was taken away, he knew that Bray would come the post. The safety then screamed over there and took it. That is called being a playmaker. That is how this defense is played. We need the players to do it. But it does work. Perfectly. When properly executed. Imagine that. I was told it's the Jimmy's & the Joe's, not X's & O's.
 
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#70
#70
PimpVol said:
Yes. But are they putting in a four star effort to improve themselves? How much are they invested in improving their own performance? When does their pride kick in and they get fed up with losing? What kind of heart do they have? More to it than star rankings. Those are given out by journalists.
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I like a lot of your posts, Pimp, but the Dooley "process" was about finding not only great athletes, but young men with great characters as well. If the above is a problem, the "process" is broken from start to last.

As to the OP, it's scheme. Wilcox did more with less experience, less speed, and less size. Not just more, but A WHOLE LOT MORE.
 
#71
#71
Eddie Vol Halen said:
I like a lot of your posts, Pimp, but the Dooley "process" was about finding not only great athletes, but young men with great characters as well. If the above is a problem, the "process" is broken from start to last.

As to the OP, it's scheme. Wilcox did more with less experience, less speed, and less size. Not just more, but A WHOLE LOT MORE.
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What did Wilcox do? Lost to Bama. Lost to Florida. Lost every game. Stats are worse for sure. But Wilcox lost these same games. If you want Wilcox's D scheme that is fine. His scheme "works" too. Players make it happen though. 3-3-5 would work if properly populated. I tend to favor MOFC because it gives my guys a chance to take the ball away and give it to the offense. With our offense that would be a good thing. But without guys to make plays on the ball we are spinning our wheels.
 
#72
#72
PimpVol said:
Yes. But are they putting in a four star effort to improve themselves? How much are they invested in improving their own performance? When does their pride kick in and they get fed up with losing? What kind of heart do they have? More to it than star rankings. Those are given out by journalists.
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We've had 1 winning season in 5 years. These players and actually the current student body hasn't experienced pride in the program in some time. Even Grad Students from 2007 talk about how they were lucky as hell to back into the sec champ game. There is now faith like before. The Florida game ( which I was at ) deflated all our enthusiasm.
 
#73
#73
PimpVol said:
:no: Sunseri put Moore where he belonged, in the post. He had a play to make on the ball. He whiffed. Touchdown. When ran correctly, MOFC is the hardest coverage to pass against. We need the player that can go up and pick that ball off. When Bray tried to hit Pig Howard and it got picked in the endzone against Bama it was the same coverage that we played you arw speaking of. The difference is the safety came over and erased it. If the ball had been thrown out front like it should have, he still would have knocked the pass away. It comes down to ability of the players to make plays.
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Here's your fix...play 2 damn safeties
 
#74
#74
As a defensive player you have to read the QB line and backs all at once, a man is in motion you have to know who picks him up, if you can't anticipate what the play is and get a start the same time the ball snaps , you just got owned! Sal knows what he is doin , but the players have to know what they're doing. Being confused doesn't help, there's hundreds of run plays and hundreds of pass. You got usually a week to learn the offense your playing, and a year to remember it(in conference games)

Size speed and agility is the 10% of the game 90% is mental.
 
#75
#75
beavbullvol said:
I've never pretended to understand football schemes, particularly on the defensive side of the ball. I'm a fan, period.

However, I like most, understand and appreciate a good athlete when I see one. That said, it appears our athletes on defense are markedly better, we just don't have enough of them. The secondary, from a speed standpoint seems to be the weak link.

Football gurus, what is it? Is the scheme that bad or am I misreading our athleticism? Or is it a combination of both?

I'll hang up and listen.
Click to expand...
To run a 3-4, the most important thing you have to have is a beast of a nose tackle. This player must take up two gaps. Linebackers and the secondary are multiple in this scheme. The will and sam backers can stand up on the edge in a 9 technique and the 3-4 becomes a 5-2. As in Saban's 3-4, he disguises a lot of zone blitzes with his defense. He has the athletic depth to do so. We don't have the talent or the dominating nose tackle to run this scheme.
 
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