A writers thoughts on the Tennessee/Florida match up.

#151
#151
sjt18 said:
Though I should really know better than to debate with a guy like you.... Honest question. Did you look at anything other than the signing classes? How many of these guys were busts? How many are gone? How many changed positions?

But the most important questions... how many can UF put on the field at once? AND, how do those players match up to the UT players they'll be facing?

In short... you just looked at the classes, right?

Indicators, yes. OTOH, the big 3 from FL will more than likely always have highly rated classes. Some of that is politics. There is an expectation that if one of those schools signs a player then he's better. Just the way it is. FSU during the same period of time has gotten as much or more love from Rivals. They've been very good but not world beaters. It is very reasonable to conjecture that they would have been mid-pack in the SEC.

I haven't dismissed UF. I have simply said that if Dooley can coach he should beat them this year. You are putting ALOT of faith in the subjective opinions of guys who get paid by readers that historically have NOT held it against them for being wrong. Each year there will be at least as many 3* players who were deserving of better as there are 4/5* players total.

Since roughly half of the guys who get 4/5* will not live up to billing... that means in any given year about 2/3's of the guys who should have been given those rankings got 3* or less. This is based mostly off of NFL draft observations.

They have talent on the OL that much like UT last year could not get push. They just happened to have two guys who could out run everyone if the OL could hold their blocks for a half count. Gillislee who looks to be their best returning RB is not proven by any stretch.

They have a very good receiving TE. Burton is a handful. Their WR's may have talent... but that talent hasn't translated into anything yet. Their top 3 have done absolutely nothing to demonstrate that they are close to being in DR/JH class.

No one said they didn't have talent. No doubt they'll have a very good D... and their secondary still does not match up well with UT's passing game.

No thanks. cfbstats.com gives you ways to get inside the stats.... like giving numbers vs the SEC. When you begin to get inside the numbers just a little, the disparity between UT's "bad" D and UF's "great" D isn't as much as the hype or the "talent level" (recruit rankings) indicate that it should be.

Another meaningful fact... UT played five of the top 6 offenses in the SEC while UF played 4. That 4 did not include Arkansas.

UF was 8th vs the SEC in pass D (you need to brush up on reading). UT was 5th vs the SEC. Both were top 6 passing O's. UT played 3 of the other 4 including Ark. UF played 2 of the other 4... not including Ark. Arkansas avg'd 300 ypg- almost 60 more than UGA (2nd) and UT (3rd).


So let me make sure I am completely clear. You base the idea that UF is immensely more talented on D and more effective vs the pass on having avg'd allowing 10 less ypg? You do that after UT had to experiment all year in an attempt to replace JJ and Brewer?

As for total D...Versus the SEC, UF allowed 338 ypg. UT allowed 356 ypg. Considering this massive talent gap you say exists AND the fact that UF played Aub rather than Ark (338 ypg vs 438 ypg)... The difference should have been MUCH larger.
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Interesting stat, since UF was seventh nationally. Oh! Wait! I must need to brush up on my reading.
 
#152
#152
Brooktrout said:
one can get hurt laughing so hard, than perhaps. But let me first address the symptoms of shock. An apparently common condition that the entire UT team and coaching staff suffered last Fall while playing UF. Apparently.
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I warned Brooktrout against rationality, but he just wouldn't listen.
 
#153
#153
Brooktrout said:
That is a far cry from your original post. Night and day really. What made you do the 180?
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Not true but the fact that you would make that claim says alot about you.

They built their O and gameplans about one of the few ELITE things they had going for them. When they lost Hunter, they were in "shock". Dooley used that word and IIRC Bray has too.


The mark of a great coach, "one great game plan built on one player". No backup plans needed or adjustments, since if the original plan does not cover everything possible, the team and coaches will go into shock. Perfectly reasonable.
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I have never said DD was a great coach. In this very thread, I have repeatedly and simply said "if he can coach".... I do not know if he can coach. He will have his first competitive roster since arriving at UT this year.

That said, exactly what back up plan do you think was available? Almost none of their experienced players were SEC caliber talents. What do you adjust to when there's no one to execute what you would like to adjust to and not enough time to prepare them even if there were? When you spend all of your allotted practice time trying to get inexperienced but talented players ready to execute the primary plan and sometimes even just the fundamentals... you really don't have a basis of knowledge to make many "adjustments".

When a team has a normal distribution of talent and experience, you spend less time teaching the basics and more time building on the foundation you established previously. When almost all of your talent is FR/SO... you spend all your time on basics. There SHOULD BE a foundation for DD to build on now... if he can coach.

DD took a gamble and lost. He probably figured with the high powered passing O he potentially had that UT could take a big step forward. They built a pass first O where the run game was based on passive blocking techniques that tried to make run blocks look like pass blocks.

If they had just "played it safe" then maybe Poole/Lane have better years and the Vols win a game or two more.
 
#155
#155
Weird stat. UF and UT both played LSU and Bama in consecutive weeks. Both were thrashed in both games as LSU and Bama tried to make their case to be #1. UT allowed 820 total yds and 75 pts combined. UF allowed 818 total yds and 79 pts.
 
#156
#156
sjt18 said:
Weird stat. UF and UT both played LSU and Bama in consecutive weeks. Both were thrashed in both games as LSU and Bama tried to make their case to be #1. UT allowed 820 total yds and 75 pts combined. UF allowed 818 total yds and 79 pts.
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And I believe Simms was starting in both games...
 
#157
#157
sjt18 said:
Weird stat. UF and UT both played LSU and Bama in consecutive weeks. Both were thrashed in both games as LSU and Bama tried to make their case to be #1. UT allowed 820 total yds and 75 pts combined. UF allowed 818 total yds and 79 pts.
Click to expand...

Very interesting, to say the least.
 
#158
#158
sjt18 said:
Weird stat. UF and UT both played LSU and Bama in consecutive weeks. Both were thrashed in both games as LSU and Bama tried to make their case to be #1. UT allowed 820 total yds and 75 pts combined. UF allowed 818 total yds and 79 pts.
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whether you have a yugo or a mercedes, a tank is going to flatten both of them just the same.
 
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#160
#160
sjt18 said:
It was basically what Dooley and players said after and since. So yes, dead serious. Knowing there were glaring roster holes, they spent a year building the team around what Bray, DR, and JH could accomplish. Hunter is the guy who truly made all that work. He's the one guy who was a threat to score on every single play from anywhere on the field. He was the guy who was going to be doubled or pull the secondary in his direction.

But don't let statements made by people within the program or facts get in your way... you have an opinion to preserve.
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Not meaning to horn in on a domestic dispute, but I do have a question. Does VolNation think that calling the loss of one player shocking is good leadership and coaching?
 
#164
#164
99gator said:
whether you have a yugo or a mercedes, a tank is going to flatten both of them just the same.
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The point was that many people are operating under the assumption that UT lacks talent on D while UF is loaded. UF probably had a little more experience last year than UT. IMHO, Muschamp is a better defensive coach than Wilcox though I think highly of the latter.

Both teams return almost everyone who made a significant contribution on D.

Something doesn't quite add up unless UF is not as good as advertised, UT is better than advertised, or some combination of the two.
 
#165
#165
Ancient Reptile said:
Not meaning to horn in on a domestic dispute, but I do have a question. Does VolNation think that calling the loss of one player shocking is good leadership and coaching?
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No. Not at all. I just do not know what Dooley's other options were after it occurred. IMO, they calculated that their best opportunity for the best season UT could have was to build the team around an explosive O and the O around an explosive passing game and the passing game around the top shelf abilities of Hunter, Rogers, and Bray. From various public comments and complaints from players, coaches, and insiders... it seems they put all their eggs (and time) into one basket.

He took a risk and missed. If Hunter stays healthy and UT is even higher in the SEC in passing/total O... and if they squeeze out another win or two... then it looks like excellent coaching and leadership. As it is, it means that his rope is much shorter now.
 
#166
#166
Lawrence Wright said:
I agree with the first part, but our future is on shaky ground depending on how quickly Muschamp can make chicken salad out of the chicken $h!t Meyer left on the offensive side of the ball.

Muschamp gets one more season after 2012 to make things right, otherwise he's gone...fair or not. Losing two in a row to UGA will place him squarely on the hot seat by early November.
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That says it all. gators don't measure success against us; they only obsess about GA and maybe SC.

We either beat FL this September or we are in need of a major overhaul.
 
#167
#167
Ancient Reptile said:
Not meaning to horn in on a domestic dispute, but I do have a question. Does VolNation think that calling the loss of one player shocking is good leadership and coaching?
Click to expand...

Yeah, Dooley is a bad coach because his best player at the time tore his ACL. He should have seen that coming. Why was he shocked? Why didn't he have an alternative game plan ready? Urban Meyer is obviously a better coach. How was he to know his best player was graduating and would no longer be eligible to play at UF? I mean... Had he known, he could've recruited a guy to come in and fill his role. Somebody should have told him. Maybe his health would have been better and he could still be your team's coach....
 
#169
#169
sjt18 said:
Though I should really know better than to debate with a guy like you.... Honest question. Did you look at anything other than the signing classes? How many of these guys were busts? How many are gone? How many changed positions?

But the most important questions... how many can UF put on the field at once? AND, how do those players match up to the UT players they'll be facing?

In short... you just looked at the classes, right?

Indicators, yes. OTOH, the big 3 from FL will more than likely always have highly rated classes. Some of that is politics. There is an expectation that if one of those schools signs a player then he's better. Just the way it is. FSU during the same period of time has gotten as much or more love from Rivals. They've been very good but not world beaters. It is very reasonable to conjecture that they would have been mid-pack in the SEC.

I haven't dismissed UF. I have simply said that if Dooley can coach he should beat them this year. You are putting ALOT of faith in the subjective opinions of guys who get paid by readers that historically have NOT held it against them for being wrong. Each year there will be at least as many 3* players who were deserving of better as there are 4/5* players total.

Since roughly half of the guys who get 4/5* will not live up to billing... that means in any given year about 2/3's of the guys who should have been given those rankings got 3* or less. This is based mostly off of NFL draft observations.

They have talent on the OL that much like UT last year could not get push. They just happened to have two guys who could out run everyone if the OL could hold their blocks for a half count. Gillislee who looks to be their best returning RB is not proven by any stretch.

They have a very good receiving TE. Burton is a handful. Their WR's may have talent... but that talent hasn't translated into anything yet. Their top 3 have done absolutely nothing to demonstrate that they are close to being in DR/JH class.

No one said they didn't have talent. No doubt they'll have a very good D... and their secondary still does not match up well with UT's passing game.

No thanks. cfbstats.com gives you ways to get inside the stats.... like giving numbers vs the SEC. When you begin to get inside the numbers just a little, the disparity between UT's "bad" D and UF's "great" D isn't as much as the hype or the "talent level" (recruit rankings) indicate that it should be.

Another meaningful fact... UT played five of the top 6 offenses in the SEC while UF played 4. That 4 did not include Arkansas.

UF was 8th vs the SEC in pass D (you need to brush up on reading). UT was 5th vs the SEC. Both were top 6 passing O's. UT played 3 of the other 4 including Ark. UF played 2 of the other 4... not including Ark. Arkansas avg'd 300 ypg- almost 60 more than UGA (2nd) and UT (3rd).


So let me make sure I am completely clear. You base the idea that UF is immensely more talented on D and more effective vs the pass on having avg'd allowing 10 less ypg? You do that after UT had to experiment all year in an attempt to replace JJ and Brewer?

As for total D...Versus the SEC, UF allowed 338 ypg. UT allowed 356 ypg. Considering this massive talent gap you say exists AND the fact that UF played Aub rather than Ark (338 ypg vs 438 ypg)... The difference should have been MUCH larger.
Click to expand...


So, you're saying theres a chance?
 
#172
#172
voldawgforever said:
"It's easier to think about NC State in terms of how bad it would be if we lost. Not here. I don't have to imagine what it feels like to lose to these guys, I know. It's been eight years. But I can imagine an awful lot about how great it would be to beat the Gators. I don't care what their record was last year. I don't even really care if they lose to Texas A&M the week before. If Derek Dooley beats Florida in Neyland Stadium on September 15, his job security will go up astronomically. We would celebrate this win in ways that would stay with us if we lost to Georgia, Alabama, or South Carolina. And man, you put this one together with NC State? If Dooley starts 3-0 (which becomes 4-0 over Akron), I think he's home free in 2012. For everything that matters for Tennessee and for Dooley, this is the one that will mean the most. And in the SEC East, I wouldn't have it any other way."

Thoughts? Is this the most important regular season game? Which game is most important?
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I agree. I think the fl game sets the tone for the season. If we can beat fl the momentum will be ours for the taking. It would be a big boost for both fans and players. I am (almost) willing to sell a kidney to get my hands on those tix lol and hope to be partying on the strip after we win! Go Big Orange!
 
#173
#173
For all the 5 and 4 stars on UF's D, the DBs are still inexperienced and small. DaRick Rogers looked like Gulliver in Lilliput in 2011, and Hunter is bigger. Elam is not as good as Eric Berry, but he's good. He's only 1 man, though, and TAMU is likely to wear out and expose the Gator pass defense. Odds are, UF overplays the pass and the Vols ring up 150 yards on the ground. The UT Oline is massive and averages 20+ starts.

Beating UF is more important than going to Atlanta because UT needs to face up to the fact that they can't ignore the Gators anymore, like they did for 75 years. The teams first played in 1916; through 1975 UT was 13-2; through 1990, UT was 14-6, having in 1990 put the worst beating on UF they every suffered -- 45-3. Then Spurrier found his groove with the spread and UT continued to focus on Alabama (whom the Vols beat a lot) and running the (sometimes too cumbersome) Pro Set.

With Alabama on the sched every year -- historically, the most important game in Southern football -- the Vols have been reluctant to view UF as anything more than a temporary nuisance. Sans Spurrier and Tebow, it is possible that what we've witnessed from the Gators1991-2010 was a temporary abberation, but UT can't afford to judge itself by its opponents' downfalls.

The loss of UT's best player -- Hunter (22 ypc) -- in Q1 2011 can't be underestimated, but that's because the Vols were young and thin. Now they're a year older, have added 1 5* WR (Patterson) and 3 4* WRs, and aren't as likely to fold up if faced with adversity -- and on the other hand, Rainey and Demps are gone. Word is Dooley has added a spread package just for the Gators.

Finally, when UT arrives 2-0 (NCSU hasn't had a Top 25recruiting class since forever), look for 108,000. 31-17.
 
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#174
#174
WiseOlVol said:
For all the 5 and 4 stars on UF's D, the DBs are still inexperienced and small. DaRick Rogers looked like Gulliver in Lilliput in 2011, and Hunter is bigger. Elam is not as good as Eric Berry, but he's good. He's only 1 man, though, and TAMU is likely to wear out and expose the Gator pass defense. Odds are, UF overplays the pass and the Vols ring up 150 yards on the ground. The UT Oline is massive and averages 20+ starts.
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Translation: UF's secondary did not improve whatsoever during the off-season, while Rogers lit up Darrelle Revis in private workouts. UF's best DB is not as good as UT's best DB in the last 20 years. Playing a pass-happy Texas A&M team the week before playing pass-happy UT will not provide any teachable moments for UF's coaching staff. Even though UF returns just about all of its front 7 that dominated UT's run game, UT will run wild on UF.

Beating UF is more important than going to Atlanta because UT needs to face up to the fact that they can't ignore the Gators anymore, like they did for 75 years. The teams first played in 1916; through 1975 UT was 13-2; through 1990, UT was 14-6, having in 1990 put the worst beating on UF they every suffered -- 45-3. Then Spurrier found his groove with the spread and UT continued to focus on Alabama (whom the Vols beat a lot) and running the (sometimes too cumbersome) Pro Set.
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Translation: Who needs another SEC East title? Our season is pretty much over before it starts if we lose to UF. The Gators finally have our full attention after being irrelevant nationally for decades before electricity and integration.

With Alabama on the sched every year -- historically, the most important game in Southern football -- the Vols have been reluctant to view UF as anything more than a temporary nuisance. Sans Spurrier and Tebow, it is possible that what we've witnessed from the Gators1991-2010 was a temporary abberation, but UT can't afford to judge itself by its opponents' downfalls.
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Translation: UF winning 5 straight between '93 and '97, and another 7 straight currently is the exception. UT running off ten straight against UF in the 1910s was the rule. Florida has no built-in advantages whatsoever to sustain a competitive football program in the Southeastern Conference, so it's not a stretch to think that we can't dominate UF like we did during the Woodrow Wilson administration.

The loss of UT's best player -- Hunter (22 ypc) -- in Q1 2011 can't be underestimated, but that's because the Vols were young and thin. Now they're a year older, have added 1 5* WR (Patterson) and 3 4* WRs, and aren't as likely to fold up if faced with adversity -- and on the other hand, Rainey and Demps are gone. Word is Dooley has added a spread package just for the Gators.
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Translation: UT's young and inexperienced players from a year ago have improved tremendously, while UF's kids spent the off-season eating donuts and playing Xbox.

Finally, when UT arrives 2-0 (NCSU hasn't had a Top 25recruiting class since forever), look for 108,000. 31-17.
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Translation: Just like 2010 :)
 
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#175
#175
HeartOfOrange said:
I agree. I think the fl game sets the tone for the season. If we can beat fl the momentum will be ours for the taking. It would be a big boost for both fans and players. I am (almost) willing to sell a kidney to get my hands on those tix lol and hope to be partying on the strip after we win! Go Big Orange!
Click to expand...

You realize if (when) we win against Florida, and you head to the strip for an all night massive wow baby celebration, there is a good chance your other (and only) kidney may suffer major damage. You really should consider giving up one of your legs. I'll help you to the strip, I promise.

:)
 
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