A boy named Trayvon Martin is shot and killed by neighborhood watch goon

#103
#103
The story I just read said the Martin kid was on his cell phone and talked about a "strange man" following him.

The Zimmerman idiot should be drawn and quartered.
 
#104
#104
hndog609 said:
Other than my shading Zimmerman's fault in instigating what turned out to lethal encounter more than you I'm pretty much in agreement with your take on things given what little we currently have to work with. Once things DID get sideways (which I still hold Zimmerman mostly at fault for) it gets much more muddled than many would seem to want to make it given the outcome.
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Exactly right.

I think a fair inference is that Zimmerman substantially caused the confrontation, and in hindsight needlessly so. The question is, once the situation went south, did the kid do something that, in that moment, Zimmerman reasonably felt left him no choice.

Tough situation. And that is why, regarding the earlier issue itt, I am far less critical than others of the police for not making an immediate arrest. The situation is not cut and dry.
 
#105
#105
rockytop9808 said:
The story I just read said the Martin kid was on his cell phone and talked about a "strange man" following him.

The Zimmerman idiot should be drawn and quartered.
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Yes, this is from his girlfriend.

The thing I find odd about that is that, apparently, there are cell records to show he was on the phone at or about that time. Yet, she only comes forward almost a month after the incident?

I mean, someone is on the phone and hears the confrontation, then finds out their boyfriend was killed in it, there's a huge public outcry and she doesn't say anything for weeks? And when she does, it supports the boyfriend being murdered?

That seems really strange to me.
 
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#107
#107
rockytop9808 said:
The story I just read said the Martin kid was on his cell phone and talked about a "strange man" following him.

The Zimmerman idiot should be drawn and quartered.
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Here is the link: Trayvon Martin Exclusive: Friend on Phone with Teen Before Death Recalls Final Moments - Yahoo!

If this part of the story is true then it would appear Trayvon felt threatened, so even if he fought back I don't see how Zimmerman could claim self defense. If an intruder comes into my house and I defend my house, but then he shoots me dead, can he claim self defense? Doubtful.

What if Trayvon had beaten Zimmerman to death? He should have been able to claim that Zimmerman threatened him and had a gun so he was defending himself from this strange man that was following him down the street and then cornered him. Trayvon was the one threatened and he had nothing more than his own muscles and a bag of skittles to defend himself from an adult with an SUV and a gun. Only someone who believes that all Black males over the age of 12 are inherently dangerous could believe that anything Trayvon did while defending himself would have justified being killed by Zimmerman.

I still don't understand why they aren't talking about anything at all happening to Zimmerman. If a police officer shoots someone he is placed on administrative leave pending the outcome of the shooting investigation. So, have they confiscated Zimmerman's guns? Did they remove him from the unregistered neighborhood watch? I agree that you have to let the investigation work to completion, but almost anyone else would be sitting in jail simply to ensure the safety of the community.

This continues to smell of a cover up.
 
#108
#108
Absolutely outrageous this guy is still not at least being held in jail. HE SHOT AND KILLED SOMEBODY. Any other person would be immediately detained and held there, even if they pleaded self-defense. I mean, its no wonder the black community is up in arms. The local PD could have quelled that by doing their jobs.
 
#109
#109
YorkVol said:
I still don't understand why they aren't talking about anything at all happening to Zimmerman.
This continues to smell of a cover up.
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It's my understanding that this is going to go before a grand jury so I don't see any cover up at this point.
 
#110
#110
GoBigOrangeUT said:
Absolutely outrageous this guy is still not at least being held in jail. HE SHOT AND KILLED SOMEBODY. Any other person would be immediately detained and held there, even if they pleaded self-defense.
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I'm sorry but this is simply false. Self defense shootings are a lot more common than you apparently think and the SOP is not to simply arrest everybody involved in a shooting unless there is just cause. This has not legally (emotional reactions not counting) been deemed the case. As stated this is headed for a grand jury so Zimmerman is far from having been cleared of wrong doing.
 
#111
#111
hndog609 said:
It's my understanding that this is going to go before a grand jury so I don't see any cover up at this point.
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Why did it take so long? I still contend if a 26 year old Black man had been driving around "protecting" his neighborhood and shot a 17 year old White kid visiting his father, he would have been arrested pending the outcome of the investigation.
 
#112
#112
YorkVol said:
Why did it take so long? I still contend if a 26 year old Black man had been driving around "protecting" his neighborhood and shot a 17 year old White kid visiting his father, he would have been arrested pending the outcome of the investigation.
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Eh, it's speculation. There's no possible way to state with any certainty that under the same circumstances reversing the race of those involved would automatically have put the shooter in jail. I have been openly critical of how Zimmerman, in my estimation, instigated the confrontation that led to the shooting. I'm not one bit happy with that. Having said that he had been in contact with police, this wasn't some guy that drove by and popped a cap in some kid.

I simply hate to get my opinion too far out ahead of fact. It's frustrating as hell sometimes but right now we're all pretty ignorant on the subject. I'm guessing a LOT will be coming out at the grand jury.
 
#113
#113
hndog609 said:
Eh, it's speculation. There's no possible way to state with any certainty that under the same circumstances reversing the race of those involved would automatically have put the shooter in jail. I have been openly critical of how Zimmerman, in my estimation, instigated the confrontation that led to the shooting. I'm not one bit happy with that. Having said that he had been in contact with police, this wasn't some guy that drove by and popped a cap in some kid.

I simply hate to get my opinion too far out ahead of fact. It's frustrating as hell sometimes but right now we're all pretty ignorant on the subject. I'm guessing a LOT will be coming out at the grand jury.
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Yeah, you are right, we're all just speculating at this point. Just stating my opinion based on what I've seen, we won't really know much more until the investigation is done.
 
#114
#114
I've read that Zimmerman also was not given a breathalyzer or drug test during questioning which is common practice and that there are some who indicate that Zimmerman was intoxicated on the phone. Is a test usually done? Haven't heard that point before.
 
#115
#115
Heebs said:
I've read that Zimmerman also was not given a breathalyzer or drug test during questioning which is common practice and that there are some who indicate that Zimmerman was intoxicated on the phone. Is a test usually done? Haven't heard that point before.
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I've failed many phone sobriety tests myself.
 
#116
#116
lawgator1 said:
Yes, this is from his girlfriend.

The thing I find odd about that is that, apparently, there are cell records to show he was on the phone at or about that time. Yet, she only comes forward almost a month after the incident?

I mean, someone is on the phone and hears the confrontation, then finds out their boyfriend was killed in it, there's a huge public outcry and she doesn't say anything for weeks? And when she does, it supports the boyfriend being murdered?

That seems really strange to me.
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The outrage should be with the investigators, not withe the girl. Or, this was known by the investigators but just ignored until now. Let's not be so quick to attack her for her story only coming out right now. There's nontelling right now if she did talk with them before or not.
 
#117
#117
lawgator1 said:
Yes, this is from his girlfriend.

The thing I find odd about that is that, apparently, there are cell records to show he was on the phone at or about that time. Yet, she only comes forward almost a month after the incident?

I mean, someone is on the phone and hears the confrontation, then finds out their boyfriend was killed in it, there's a huge public outcry and she doesn't say anything for weeks? And when she does, it supports the boyfriend being murdered?

That seems really strange to me.
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Do we know she just now came forward, though? She could have testified before.
 
#118
#118
Rasputin_Vol said:
The outrage should be with the investigators, not withe the girl. Or, this was known by the investigators but just ignored until now. Let's not be so quick to attack her for her story only coming out right now. There's nontelling right now if she did talk with them before or not.
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Well, it's true that she might have talked to investigators right away.

Still don't get why she wouldn't speak publicly then but will now. I mean, if she heard what she heard and told the family or any of the protestors, you'd think they'd have had her out there a lot earlier than a month later.

Possible, I suppose.

But it is equally possible that she did not hear it that way originally, but is now on the bandwagon with everyone else, justifying it however they see fit.
 
#120
#120
I still don't see how anyone can justify a guy killing a teenager carrying a bag of candy because he "looked suspicious".
 
#121
#121
Rasputin_Vol said:
Nah, that is about as absolutely true as you can get. 99.999% true.
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Arguing what you see as a probability does not change the fact it's speculation. Hell, if I were to accept your 99.999% it'd still be speculation as applied to this case. You don't know any more than I do.
 
#123
#123
rockytop9808 said:
I still don't see how anyone can justify a guy killing a teenager carrying a bag of candy because he "looked suspicious".
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I'm afraid if you think that's what this is all about then you've already missed the boat. Nobody was shot because they "looked suspicious".

Now if you want to argue that somebody (Zimmerman) was way, WAY out of line in using someone "looked suspicious" as cause to instigate an encounter that ended up with somebody being shot then you're back in the boat.

What's going to come about (now I'm speculating) is that Zimmerman's stance is that regardless of whatever actions he took, even if inappropriate, do not open him up to attack without an ability to defend himself. If someone keys your car right in front of you they did wrong. If your response is to pull out a tire iron and try to bash their heads in and they shoot you guess what...that shooting is justified.

Personally in this case in the totality of circumstances (as they are currently known to me) Zimmerman is culpable at the very least of initiating a hostile confrontation that resulted in a death. As this could (IMO) have been reasonably avoided but action was taken, of his own volition (and I believe in direct contradiction to police instruction), that resulted in that death he is guilty of at least some serious negligence in some form or fashion. To what extent is a legal jumble and much will have to be sorted out.
 
#124
#124
hndog609 said:
I'm afraid if you think that's what this is all about then you've already missed the boat. Nobody was shot because they "looked suspicious".

Now if you want to argue that somebody (Zimmerman) was way, WAY out of line in using someone "looked suspicious" as cause to instigate an encounter that ended up with somebody being shot then you're back in the boat.

What's going to come about (now I'm speculating) is that Zimmerman's stance is that regardless of whatever actions he took, even if inappropriate, do not open him up to attack without an ability to defend himself. If someone keys your car right in front of you they did wrong. If your response is to pull out a tire iron and try to bash their heads in and they shoot you guess what...that shooting is justified.

Personally in this case in the totality of circumstances (as they are currently known to me) Zimmerman is culpable at the very least of initiating a hostile confrontation that resulted in a death. As this could (IMO) have been reasonably avoided but action was taken, of his own volition (and I believe in direct contradiction to police instruction), that resulted in that death he is guilty of at least some serious negligence in some form or fashion. To what extent is a legal jumble and much will have to be sorted out.
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The bolded was what I was going for.
 
#125
#125
rockytop9808 said:
I still don't see how anyone can justify a guy killing a teenager carrying a bag of candy because he "looked suspicious".
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I get what you are saying but you need to learn the facts a little better. The way you frame it, Zimmerman shot him from 200 feet away. But:

1) There are reports of the two struggling on the ground.

2) When police arrived, Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and his nose.

3) The audio may reflect Zimmerman yelling for help.


That's all we know right now. The physical and forensic evidence will show more, but that is being withheld from the public pending the investigation outcome, as it should be.

I'm not saying the initial encounter or anything the kid was doing then justified shooting him. But we know very little about the facts of what happened between the in initial encounter and the shot and that's undeniably very important here.
 
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