A boy named Trayvon Martin is shot and killed by neighborhood watch goon

#76
#76
LG, are you defending the shooter, or just defending the process of the investigation?
 
#77
#77
Slydell said:
OK, I've been reading up a little on the Florida stand your ground law. Sounds like a license to murder to me.
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A lot of states have laws that allow for the possession of a concealed weapon with the proper permit. I live in Spartanburg, SC & after an attempted rape on a woman the county sheriff himself advised anyone who could, mainly directed at women, to apply for the permits. About 2 months ago a couple guys attempted to rob a local waffle house. The guy had a gun. A concealed weapon holder drew his weapon & told the robber to drop his gun & wait for the cops. When the guy pointed his weapon at the concealed weapon holder he was shot dead. The other guy fled with no weapon but was later caught. They were both black teens & the shooter was a white guy. No charges filed. No big uproar.
 
#78
#78
IMO, Trayvon was the one in defensive mode that night three weeks ago. Unfortunately, he is the one being postured as guilty until proven innocent while his killer enjoys the innocent until proven guilty setting. If no charges are brought, I'm sure Zimmerman is aware that he could fall victim to this same bs law himself.
 
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#79
#79
Slydell said:
IMO, Trayvon was the one in defensive mode that night three weeks ago. Unfortunately, he is the one being postured as guilty until proven innocent while his killer enjoys the innocent until proven guilty setting. If no charges are brought, I'm sure Zimmerman is aware that he could fall victim to this same bs law himself.
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I guess only those 2 will ever know the whole truth. Who knows what really happened?Maybe he was wrong to approach the kid but maybe the kid did do something after being approached.
 
#81
#81
Slydell said:
He was completely wrong to approach the youngster.
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If I'm neiborhood watch & see somebody suspicious in the neiborhood I probably would at least see what was going on. Wasn't it a gated community on a rainy night? Was he taking a shortcut or something? Not saying the guy was totally right but I could see an over zealous kid making it a difficult situation.
 
#82
#82
vollygirl said:
LG, are you defending the shooter, or just defending the process of the investigation?
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The process of the investigation in context of the law and what few facts regarding the confrontation we actually know.

Zimmerman seems like a complete tool, a zealous wacko. But that doesn't mean that he's guilty of a crime here. We need to let the investigation reach some conclusions, then review the facts.
 
#83
#83
govols/cc said:
If I'm neiborhood watch & see somebody suspicious in the neiborhood I probably would at least see what was going on. Wasn't it a gated community on a rainy night? Was he taking a shortcut or something? Not saying the guy was totally right but I could see an over zealous kid making it a difficult situation.
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The kid apparently lived in the community.

I am sure folks like Superdave feels the boy had it coming, and got off lightly. Even worse, is since the shooter was white he will get a really unfair trial. Historically the justice system has always punished whites more than blacks.


superdave1984 said:
Had it been the other way around it would be 24/7 on every TV station in the US. I am sure that there will be a big story on what the boy did to provoke the attack. The attackers will get a slap on the wrist.
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#84
#84
Slydell said:
IMO, Trayvon was the one in defensive mode that night three weeks ago. Unfortunately, he is the one being postured as guilty until proven innocent while his killer enjoys the innocent until proven guilty setting. If no charges are brought, I'm sure Zimmerman is aware that he could fall victim to this same bs law himself.
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No he isn't. The press down here was initially very anti-Zimmerman. But in the last week, as more of the physical facts emerge (one shot, not two), the fact that Zimmerman had some injuries-- it's not clear what happened and people need to calm down and let the prosecutor decide what to do with the facts.

I think the fact that the police and the city are among those asking for DOJ help tells you that they are anxious to show that they've done the best they can with the data they were given.
 
#85
#85
Nerd-Vol said:
The kid apparently lived in the community.

I am sure folks like Superdave feels the boy had it coming, and got off lightly. Even worse, is since the shooter was white he will get a really unfair trial. Historically the justice system has always punished whites more than blacks.
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No, he was visiting his father. He was from Miami. Fwiw, reports vary from he was a good kid who wanted to be a pilot to he was off from school because he had been suspended for five days for tardiness/truancy. Zimmerman is a host of oddity, himself, not much of which helps us understand whether he had a right to defend himself.

That's my point. We don't know yet, folks need to wait on the review to be done. Then the statements (including Zimmerman's) will be released and we will have much more to go on.
 
#86
#86
Or, they want to drop the hot potato in another lap. I don't know either, LG. Maybe, the police should not have waited three weeks to release information that they probably had/should have had on the night Trayvon was killed.
 
#87
#87
Slydell said:
Or, they want to drop the hot potato in another lap. I don't know either, LG. Maybe, the police should not have waited three weeks to release information that they probably had/should have had on the night Trayvon was killed.
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Under Florida public records law normally none would be released while the investigation was ongoing. My impression is they released the 911 calls because the investigation in terms of gathering info was done and there were leaks about the tapes already.
 
#88
#88
lawgator1 said:
The process of the investigation in context of the law and what few facts regarding the confrontation we actually know.

Zimmerman seems like a complete tool, a zealous wacko. But that doesn't mean that he's guilty of a crime here. We need to let the investigation reach some conclusions, then review the facts.
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very true. The media always grabs whatever will play on emotions and run with it no matter the facts, laws, or processes.
 
#89
#89
This really shows how easy it is for the media to manipulate a story by leaving out significant facts, thereby creating stories rather than reporting them...


On another note, Freak should be eternally grateful that being a complete tool (as Zimmerman clearly is) isn't against the law... More than half of VN would be in the clink right now....
 
#90
#90
GreveHaller said:
very true. The media always grabs whatever will play on emotions and run with it no matter the facts, laws, or processes.
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I've been pretty clear in how I feel about someone who isn't LEO initiating an armed confrontation, especially one with no particularly articulable threat to confront. Having said that you're dead right on this...emotions and sweeping assumptions based on little evidence is a common thing these days. Anybody remember how very different the Duke Lacrosse ended than how it began once the truth started to come out?
 
#92
#92
hndog609 said:
I've been pretty clear in how I feel about someone who isn't LEO initiating an armed confrontation, especially one with no particularly articulable threat to confront. Having said that you're dead right on this...emotions and sweeping assumptions based on little evidence is a common thing these days. Anybody remember how very different the Duke Lacrosse ended than how it began once the truth started to come out?
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I,too, think that if Zimmerman got out of his car to follow the young man for no reason other than he was black should be considered. But it has to be considered in the entire scheme of the situation. According to the 911 tape Zimmerman says it was raining and the kid was just standing there, looking at houses. Also, according to the tape, Zimmerman says the kid is staring at him and starting to come over to him to confront Zimmerman.

It is after that when Zimmerman says he is following the kid and is told "we don't need you to do that" and Zimmerman says "o.k."

We don't know how the kid was acting towards Zimmerman. We don't know what words were exchanged. Some witnesses reported seeing a physical struggle going on. And we know Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of his head and from his nose when police arrived.

Did Zimmerman act in such a manner as to create the confrontation? Maybe so. I don't know. Did the kid act in some aggressive manner that contributed to the confrontation and ensuing use of the gun? Maybe so. I don't know. Was there a fight and was Zimmerman legitimately in fear for his life? Maybe so. I don't know. Or did Zimmerman shoot the kid simply because he was black? Maybe so. I don't know.

The police have announced that they will do a voice analysis to determine who is on the tape yelling for help. If it is Zimmerman yelling for help, and if Zimmerman is found bleeding, and if witnesses say that there was a physical struggle going on, you are left with that versus Zimmerman being a bit of a kook and into being a cop plus "we don't need you to do that." I'm just not sure that's enough to say a crime was committed, much less that a conviction is reasonably possible here.
 
#93
#93
The most recent news is that the state attorney is going to convene a grand jury, the DOJ is going to conduct its own, independent investigation to determine if any federal crime was committed, and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement is going to conduct its own review, as well.

Trayvon Martin department of justice hate crime: Department of Justice to investigate Trayvon Martin shooting - Orlando Sentinel

What I think needs to happen now is that responsible leaders from the black community need to stop simply calling for the Zimmerman's arrest just because they think he might have done something wrong, let this process work itself out, and see where things are then. If there is an indictment, either by the grand jury or the DOJ, then they will have gotten what they want. If not, all of the investigative materials will be released and the issues fairly debated.

But it does no good, based purely on guesswork and speculation at this stage, to call for Zimmerman simply to be arrested and charged.
 
#94
#94
lawgator1 said:
I,too, think that if Zimmerman got out of his car to follow the young man for no reason other than he was black should be considered. But it has to be considered in the entire scheme of the situation. According to the 911 tape Zimmerman says it was raining and the kid was just standing there, looking at houses. Also, according to the tape, Zimmerman says the kid is staring at him and starting to come over to him to confront Zimmerman.

It is after that when Zimmerman says he is following the kid and is told "we don't need you to do that" and Zimmerman says "o.k."

We don't know how the kid was acting towards Zimmerman. We don't know what words were exchanged. Some witnesses reported seeing a physical struggle going on. And we know Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of his head and from his nose when police arrived.

Did Zimmerman act in such a manner as to create the confrontation? Maybe so. I don't know. Did the kid act in some aggressive manner that contributed to the confrontation and ensuing use of the gun? Maybe so. I don't know. Was there a fight and was Zimmerman legitimately in fear for his life? Maybe so. I don't know. Or did Zimmerman shoot the kid simply because he was black? Maybe so. I don't know.

The police have announced that they will do a voice analysis to determine who is on the tape yelling for help. If it is Zimmerman yelling for help, and if Zimmerman is found bleeding, and if witnesses say that there was a physical struggle going on, you are left with that versus Zimmerman being a bit of a kook and into being a cop plus "we don't need you to do that." I'm just not sure that's enough to say a crime was committed, much less that a conviction is reasonably possible here.
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Yes we do, he got out of the car to chase the kid.
 
#95
#95
PuntBamaPunt said:
Yes we do, he got out of the car to chase the kid.
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After, he said, the kid was staring at him and walking towards him.

I'm not saying he was right to continue after him after the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that," but its hardly the same thing as "he got out of the car to chase the kid" or "after being told not to."

It depends in large part on what Zimmerman says and what the physical evidence shows. For example, if he ran after the kid for 200 yards, winding behind houses, cornered him and threatened him, I'd be more inclined to find criminal fault. But if he walked after him for 30 yards, between two houses, and the kid freaked out and came at him and punched him and had him on the ground, as has been reported by some, I'd be less inclined to find fault.

Depends on the physical evidence, which we don't know at this point and which is part of the ongoing investigation.
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#96
#96
The kid could've been just standing there because he wasn't sure which house it was. From the news report I watched this morning, that whole row looked the same. Plus it was dark, and apparently raining from what was said. The kid could've been coming over to see if Zimmerman knew which house number he was in front of. If Zimmerman got out of the car with his gun in visible site, then it would've been the kid who felt threatened. Specially if Zimmerman started coming towards him.

The whole thing is just so incredibly sad. Incredibly sad.
 
#97
#97
lawgator1 said:
I,too, think that if Zimmerman got out of his car to follow the young man for no reason other than he was black should be considered. But it has to be considered in the entire scheme of the situation. According to the 911 tape Zimmerman says it was raining and the kid was just standing there, looking at houses. Also, according to the tape, Zimmerman says the kid is staring at him and starting to come over to him to confront Zimmerman.

It is after that when Zimmerman says he is following the kid and is told "we don't need you to do that" and Zimmerman says "o.k."

We don't know how the kid was acting towards Zimmerman. We don't know what words were exchanged. Some witnesses reported seeing a physical struggle going on. And we know Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of his head and from his nose when police arrived.

Did Zimmerman act in such a manner as to create the confrontation? Maybe so. I don't know. Did the kid act in some aggressive manner that contributed to the confrontation and ensuing use of the gun? Maybe so. I don't know. Was there a fight and was Zimmerman legitimately in fear for his life? Maybe so. I don't know. Or did Zimmerman shoot the kid simply because he was black? Maybe so. I don't know.

The police have announced that they will do a voice analysis to determine who is on the tape yelling for help. If it is Zimmerman yelling for help, and if Zimmerman is found bleeding, and if witnesses say that there was a physical struggle going on, you are left with that versus Zimmerman being a bit of a kook and into being a cop plus "we don't need you to do that." I'm just not sure that's enough to say a crime was committed, much less that a conviction is reasonably possible here.
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Other than my shading Zimmerman's fault in instigating what turned out to lethal encounter more than you I'm pretty much in agreement with your take on things given what little we currently have to work with. Once things DID get sideways (which I still hold Zimmerman mostly at fault for) it gets much more muddled than many would seem to want to make it given the outcome.
 
#98
#98
My only question right now is why is the media posting pictures of Martin when he appears to be 12 years old? I Just wonder why they give us the face of a younger, more innocent looking kid when they do these story updates. Are there not more recent photos of the 17 year old?

But having said that, all indications to me right now look as though Zimmerman did not follow instructions and chose to confront the guy. That shouldn't be grounds for self-defense, but that is just based on what I know right now.
 
#99
#99
lawgator1 said:
After, he said, the kid was staring at him and walking towards him.

I'm not saying he was right to continue after him after the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that," but its hardly the same thing as "he got out of the car to chase the kid" or "after being told not to."

It depends in large part on what Zimmerman says and what the physical evidence shows. For example, if he ran after the kid for 200 yards, winding behind houses, cornered him and threatened him, I'd be more inclined to find criminal fault. But if he walked after him for 30 yards, between two houses, and the kid freaked out and came at him and punched him and had him on the ground, as has been reported by some, I'd be less inclined to find fault.

Depends on the physical evidence, which we don't know at this point and which is part of the ongoing investigation.
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Why get out of the vehicle?

He is in a two ton weapon
 
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#100
#100
lawgator1 said:
The most recent news is that the state attorney is going to convene a grand jury, the DOJ is going to conduct its own, independent investigation to determine if any federal crime was committed, and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement is going to conduct its own review, as well.

Trayvon Martin department of justice hate crime: Department of Justice to investigate Trayvon Martin shooting - Orlando Sentinel

What I think needs to happen now is that responsible leaders from the black community need to stop simply calling for the Zimmerman's arrest just because they think he might have done something wrong, let this process work itself out, and see where things are then. If there is an indictment, either by the grand jury or the DOJ, then they will have gotten what they want. If not, all of the investigative materials will be released and the issues fairly debated.

But it does no good, based purely on guesswork and speculation at this stage, to call for Zimmerman simply to be arrested and charged.
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If Zimmerman was Black he would have been arrested and bail would be in the 6 figures. He would be proving self defense from behind bars.
 
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