SEC not the most powerful...

#51
#51
hatvol,

Based on what, their dismantling of a pathetic ACC schedule (save for their loss to NC State)?

1998 was the first year of the BCS. I used that example for obvious reasons. Think about 2003, when the resulting outcry over LSU making it (justifiably) over USC forced the human polls into a position of dominance AND eliminated the loss penalties AND eliminated strength of schedule (based off USC playing 11 cupcakes).
FSU beat Florida in '98. That was a much more impressive win than anything on anyone else's resume. UCLA and K State were exposed as the frauds they were in their respective bowl games. If you can't hold a double digit lead with a berth in the National Title game on the line, which neither the Bruins nor the Wildcats could, tough luck. OSU lost a home game to a terrible team. That's just too bad for them.
 
#52
#52
hatvol,

Re: OSU. Keep in mind I despise Ohio State to the point where I'm actually pulling for Florida in a few weeks.

Does a loss to a middling team count against a team more than a win against a quality team counts for them? I coach high school football here in Ohio, where the question of who gets into the playoffs and who doesn't is based off computer numbers and a formula that was set in 1972. In that formula, all losses are treated the same (as zero points accumulated) and all wins are treated the same (as points accumulated) no matter how good or how bad the team defeated or lost to is, no matter the margin of victory, no matter where it was played, and so on.

My personal standpoint is beating a good team means more than losing to an average or bad team. That's just me. And by the way, I don't think there was anyone happier in the state of Ohio than I was when that wounded duck was thrown into the end zone back in 1998.....
 
#53
#53
hatvol,

Re: OSU. Keep in mind I despise Ohio State to the point where I'm actually pulling for Florida in a few weeks.

Does a loss to a middling team count against a team more than a win against a quality team counts for them? I coach high school football here in Ohio, where the question of who gets into the playoffs and who doesn't is based off computer numbers and a formula that was set in 1972. In that formula, all losses are treated the same (as zero points accumulated) and all wins are treated the same (as points accumulated) no matter how good or how bad the team defeated or lost to is, no matter the margin of victory, no matter where it was played, and so on.

My personal standpoint is beating a good team means more than losing to an average or bad team. That's just me. And by the way, I don't think there was anyone happier in the state of Ohio than I was when that wounded duck was thrown into the end zone back in 1998.....
Exactly what good teams did Ohio State beat in '98? Certainly nobody the caliber of Florida.
 
#54
#54
hatvol,

Based on what, their dismantling of a pathetic ACC schedule (save for their loss to NC State)?

1998 was the first year of the BCS. I used that example for obvious reasons. Think about 2003, when the resulting outcry over LSU making it (justifiably) over USC forced the human polls into a position of dominance AND eliminated the loss penalties AND eliminated strength of schedule (based off USC playing 11 cupcakes).
If LSU hadn't lost at home to a mediocre Florida team, they wouldn't have had to worry about it.
 
#55
#55
hatvol,

I just pulled up the schedules from 1998....I must've forgotten what a horrendous year the Big XII, Big 10, and Pac-10 all happened to have.

Final BCS strength of schedule rankings among top teams:
#1 Tennessee (20)
#2 Florida State (4)
#3 Kansas State (49)
#4 Ohio State (28)
#5 UCLA (8)
#6 Texas A&M (5)
#7 Arizona (58)
#8 Florida (32)
#9 Wisconsin (61)
#10 Tulane (96)
 
#56
#56
And regarding 2003...Oklahoma and LSU both had tougher schedules than USC and and the final computer rankings showed them #1 and #2 in every poll (except the NY Times had Oklahoma #5). USC was third in every poll (except #1 in NY Times and #4 in Sagarin) but #1 in the human polls....based on when they lost their game.
 
#57
#57
And regarding 2003...Oklahoma and LSU both had tougher schedules than USC and and the final computer rankings showed them #1 and #2 in every poll (except the NY Times had Oklahoma #5). USC was third in every poll (except #1 in NY Times and #4 in Sagarin) but #1 in the human polls....based on when they lost their game.
I pay absolutely no attention to the computer polls. I judge teams by what I see. Once Jason White got banged up towards the end of 2003, as his performance in the Big XII championship game showed, LSU and USC were obviously the two best teams. Computers don't take into account facts like that which any person with a passing knowledge of football can.
 
#60
#60
Wow....I think Estelle's more insulted by that than Jason White.

I remember watching the Oklahoma/LSU game and thinking "Bernie Kosar would look like The Flash next to this guy".
 
#61
#61
it honestly doesn't matter what his computers say. the SEC could put all of the haters to rest if we ever scheduled an OOC game against a team that had a pulse. I will argue that the SEC is the toughest conference, but i have no truly valid points..... we play a tough IN-CONFERENCE schedule... but how do we truly gauge how good our teams are if we never play a tough team outside of the conference? and i don't like to hear the SEC homers say "oh, but every single SEC game is tough... the teams are all just so good." cmon now, Vandy, Kentucky, Bama... they have been no-counts for years. Every team in the SEC needs to schedule at least ONE OOC game against a decent team ranked between 10-17. This would hush all of the cynics. We did our part with scheduling Cal.... and it paid off... now the rest of the conference should follow suit. if we truly do care about being the "best" conference, then our actions should be to schedule better OOC teams.... period. until the SEC teams do this, our arguments are moot.
 
#62
#62
"By his calculations, the SEC is a surprising Joe Frazier to the more surprising Pac-10's Muhammad Ali. "

I stopped reading right here.
 
#63
#63
#64
#64
No matter what the computers say, the SEC was 3-1 against the PAC10 this season. Who is better on the field is all that matters.
good point.

but i'll concede that that the Pac 10, while imo not as good as the SEC top to bottom, was definitely the 2nd best overall conference out there.

the head to head for me gives us the edge, and also 9 of 12 playing in bowl game etc, etc...

USC's win over ark, though, turned out to be more impressive than any SEC win over their respectived Pac 10 opponents.

so to that, the gap between the two conferences isn't as big as some of us would like to think.

as to computers etc...i don't like the computers either. i for one will always rely on the old eyball test. and the defenses in the SEC top to bottom are better than the defenses in the pac 10. USC is the only Defense in the Pac 10 that is on that level. and they have the offensive weapons on the other side to compete with anybody, anywhere.
 
#65
#65
yeah, but two of the games were the class of the SEC (LSU and Auburn... both 10-2) vs. the lower rung of the PAC-10 (Arizona (6-6) and Wazzu (6-6)).

That's the equivalent to someone coming down to beat Bama (6-6) and Kentucky (7-5). See how his point is somewhat misleading?

Other teams with a 6-6 record: Ok State, Minnesota, Pitt, Kansas.

See how beating Arizona and Wazzu (who lost to Washington, lol) is insignificant?

The Cal win was the only valid argument point. USC came in and took out our SEC runner-ups by 36 pts)... yeah yeah, i know it was sans-mcfadden, but here's news, guys: mcfadden wouldn't have made up 36 points. with mcfadden healthy, the most that Arkansas scored against a D1 school was 44 against LA Monroe (which is like a D 1-AA school), followed by 38 against Orgeron and Ole Miss, followed by 31 against us. Point in case: Arkansas put up a lot of points on outmatched opponents, but would have NEVER put up over 30 on USC.... so they STILL lose by 20 points.

I'm not saying that the PAC-10 is better than the SEC (it's not).... but I am looking realistically at his 3-1 argument. Really, the records between the two conferences should be 1-1 since the LSU and Auburn games were locks anyway.
 
#66
#66
What I find so embarrassing about the Sagarin results is that the Every Pac-10 team is in the top 10 SoS

Forget conference standings, pride or anything else...If that fact alone isn't enough to convince the world of the worthlessness of his rankings, I'm not sure what would be.

Seriously, how can that even begin to make sense? And then since the whole conference's SoS is so high, it helps their overall rankings by playing so many teams with high SoS. Completely insane that this ranking system, that has produced such inconsistent results is involved with deciding who plays for a NC.
 
#67
#67
I know this reaction will be volatile but, doesn't anybody here want Florida to win just as a SEC victory even though I feel that I need to go swallow gasoline for even suggesting this but if Florida goes in there and takes care of Ohio State everything will be left on the field, it was clear this year that the SEC beat the PAC-10 3 times out of the 4, and with the X factor that USC clearly is after all they have beat Arky twice and shut Auburn out at home that is really all the PAC-10 really is, one outstanding team with a bunch of mid-majors
 
#68
#68
I know this reaction will be volatile but, doesn't anybody here want Florida to win just as a SEC victory even though I feel that I need to go swallow gasoline for even suggesting this but if Florida goes in there and takes care of Ohio State everything will be left on the field, it was clear this year that the SEC beat the PAC-10 3 times out of the 4, and with the X factor that USC clearly is after all they have beat Arky twice and shut Auburn out at home that is really all the PAC-10 really is, one outstanding team with a bunch of mid-majors

Mid-majors. LOL
 
#69
#69
Even in 1998....why Florida State over UCLA, Kansas State, Ohio State, or Arizona? Because Florida State lost the earliest.

I suppose you can argue about who should have been #2, just keep in mind that Sagarin named 1 loss Ohio St #1 over undefeated Tennessee. I cannot think of any justification for that.

if we truly do care about being the "best" conference, then our actions should be to schedule better OOC teams.... period. until the SEC teams do this, our arguments are moot.

Tennessee played Cal; Arkansas played USC; Ole Miss played Wake; Florida played FSU; Georgia played Ga Tech; USC played Clemson; Kentucky played Louisville; Vandy played Michigan; MSU played West Virginia; LSU played Arizona, Auburn played Wash St, Alabama played Hawaii.

Some were better than others, but it looks to me that in this year of 12 games, every SEC school played a real OOC opponent.
 
#71
#71
Anyone care to try and figure this out who has more than 5 minutes time here ya go....

USATODAY.com

Anybody else notice that he has LSU on top of the SEC? Also, Wake and Ga Tech, who met in the ACC championship game, are, respectively, 4th and 5th in the ACC.

I suppose, of course, that he could be right, and we are all simply confused because of what the teams have actually done.
 
#72
#72
Tennessee played Cal; Arkansas played USC; Ole Miss played Wake; Florida played FSU; Georgia played Ga Tech; USC played Clemson; Kentucky played Louisville; Vandy played Michigan; MSU played West Virginia; LSU played Arizona, Auburn played Wash St, Alabama played Hawaii.

Some were better than others, but it looks to me that in this year of 12 games, every SEC school played a real OOC opponent.


good point, but...

tennessee played cal and won. +1 for SEC

Arkansas played USC and got blasted. -1 for SEC

Ole Miss played Wake. Wake sucks. the ACC sucks. Everyone still knows Wake is overrated. After they lose to Louisville, they will drop out of the top 20. Ole Miss still got waxed. -0 SEC

Florida played FSU. FSU was 6-6. i know it's a rivalry, but FSU isn't even anywhere near top 25. +0 SEC

Georgia played Ga Tech. Georgia won, Ga Tech is not in the top 25. +0 SEC

USC beat Clemson. Clemson is 8-4 behind Maryland in the ACC. Clemson was one of the most overrated teams all year long until they were exposed. +0 SEC

Kentucky played Louisville. And got blasted. -1 SEC

Vandy played Michigan. Good showing (although outmatched in skill), but still got beat. -0 SEC

MSU played WVU. And got waxed (but were obviously outmatched being a low rung team). -0 SEC

LSU pasted Arizona (outmatched in skill), Arizona is not anywhere near top 25. +0 SEC

Auburn waxed Wazzu. Wazzu sucks, not near top 25. +0 SEC

Alabama beat Hawaii. Hawaii is not in the top 25, but they are decent... i'll give +0.5 SEC for the heck of it.


Overall. -0.5 SEC.

Subjective rankings? sure. but these OOC teams still are not anywhere near good enough to demand respect (especially when the SEC team gets pasted). If we want to stop kidding ourselves and want the SEC to get respect, we NEED TO PLAY A TEAM OOC THAT IS IN THE TOP 25.... AND BEAT THEM. The only positive that i can pull from that list is that UT beat Cal and Alabama beat Hawaii (maybe). The LSU and Auburn wins were meaningless b/c they were against such inferior teams... heck, even Hawaii can be considered inferior. And, I can't give credit to the SEC teams that played against a tough team and still lost b/c that makes the SEC look bad when a team loses an OOC game.

USC and Michigan had Notre Dame -- an easy, yet highly-visible and notable win.

OSU had Texas and Michigan.

Oregon had Oklahoma.

We had Cal.


Honestly, like i said, if we want respect for our conference, we have to do our part. the conference as a whole, has not done their part (esp. scheduling D1-AA patsies.... INCLUDING scheduling D-1AA patsies at the end of the year (UF)). that's just a realistic point of view.
 
#73
#73
I know this reaction will be volatile but, doesn't anybody here want Florida to win just as a SEC victory even though I feel that I need to go swallow gasoline for even suggesting this but if Florida goes in there and takes care of Ohio State everything will be left on the field, it was clear this year that the SEC beat the PAC-10 3 times out of the 4, and with the X factor that USC clearly is after all they have beat Arky twice and shut Auburn out at home that is really all the PAC-10 really is, one outstanding team with a bunch of mid-majors


everyone else knows that the SEC is the toughest conference. I will NEVER root for florida to win b/c it "makes the SEC look better". I cant stand florida, and i could care less about them. i could honestly care less what people say about the SEC, because first, and foremost, there is UT. just b/c the SEC is voted by some guy's computer as the "2nd best" conference doesn't mean that it devalues the vols in any way. i root for the best for the vols, and if we want to beat florida, we need for them to start faltering so that they cant rack up on recruits, further increasing the talent gap.

UT is so much more important to me, as a fan, than the SEC. Let people say what they want about the conference, i just want the best for UT. and the best for us is to have UF get waxed.
 
#74
#74
Tennessee played Cal; Arkansas played USC; Ole Miss played Wake; Florida played FSU; Georgia played Ga Tech; USC played Clemson; Kentucky played Louisville; Vandy played Michigan; MSU played West Virginia; LSU played Arizona, Auburn played Wash St, Alabama played Hawaii.

Some were better than others, but it looks to me that in this year of 12 games, every SEC school played a real OOC opponent.
i think the knock the SEC gets is that for every D 1 BCS school an SEC team schedules, there's also a Buffalo, Western Carolina, Ark. ST, ULL, etc...on the schedule as well.

then you take a look at USC who's ooc schedule was in reality...RIDICULOUS. they had ARK, NEB and ND.

and won all three. combine that with wins over Oregon and Cal...pretty signfiicant scheduling on their part.

Bottom line is what USC did this year is the exception not the rule, most big time programs schedule cream puffs at some point...Michigan played Vandy (an SEC team yes, but c'mon, do they really get cred for that?) and Ball St. FL played FSU and Western Carolina. LSU played AZ, but also ULL, and Tulane.
Auburn played Wazzou, but also had ARK st and Buffalo...

So at the end of the day, the ooc SOS for the SEC isn't as bad as some would have us think, but it's also not as good as some of us SEC homers proclaim it to be either.

the other thing is that none of these big time programs in BCS leagues want to make it a habit of playing each other in non confenerence games regularly either...recruiting borders are at stake, chances at NT at stake, home game revenue at stake etc, etc, etc...seriously, if you are truly one of the big boys...with these 90,000 plus seat stadiums....you're going to sell that out each week regardless of who you play...so why give up a weekend of that kind of revenue so you can go on the road one extra week a year just for SOS ranking? Especially when you play in a conference that will balance it anyway?

like all other things in college football, it boils down to money at the end of the day, and these big schools that generate big time bucks, aren't willing to give up that much money just so they can boast a better schedule. TN will get an extra home game each year in the new scheduling format by getting an Air Force to come to Knoxville...it's almost like a bouns pay day. why give that up to go play Michigan? Same for Michigan..why agree to a home and home with TN when they can schedule Ball St and sell out 108,000 that weekend instead..same philosophy.

so simply from a dollars and cents standpoint, i don't think you'll ever see these spectactular cross regional matchups consistently. you may get one a year, but with 4 non conf. games in a given year now...one is about all you can expect on a consistent basis.

From a fan stadnpoint, it sucks. From an SOS standpoint it sucks.

and even then, what i do think you will begin to see more of, and it's already happening, you will see more bcs vs. bcs games during the regular season...it just may not be the top teams of those conferences playing each other...rather, top team from BCS league conf. A plays middle of the road/bottom feeder team from BCS league B, maybe in addition to that 1 "marquis" BCS vs. BCS game in the regular season. i think we'll see less and less of the supposed top tier teams in SEC scheduling 1aa schools etc...or bottom feeders from non bcs leagues.

but there will never be a day where non conf. games are going to be like bowl game matchups, not consistently anyway.
 
#75
#75
This thread is why I hate college football fans.

A) Who cares?

B) You SEC fanboys can't handle other opinions.

C) Jeff Sagarin knows more than you.

D) If anything, human polls are ruining college football more than computers.

For someone who hate college football fans, you sure do spend a lot of time talking to them on this board.
 
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