GAME THREAD: @ South Carolina, Sunday, 2/8, 3 pm EST, ABC

I said at the beginning of the season that this will not be Tennessee's year. They are set up for next year if Kim has not lost the team. I was shocked at her press conference. She didn't say she didn't have them ready... she said they quit. That is harsh even if it's true. If they quit... is she not responsible for the "quit" in them? I thought you guys had a coach that could bring your program back. I am now questioning that. The SEC needs a strong Tennessee program. I hope Kim can get it done and next year will or should be the breakout season if she can keep everyone and add this next class. Win out and things will get better. That is a tall mountain to climb though. Good luck guys. Take it out on the other teams coming up.
100%. And that's the HUGE difference to last season. Last year, we played close with the top teams repeatedly and, of course, beat UCONN and Ohio State.

So, what's the difference between this year and last year? It's clearly not Kim, her staff, or the approach they take to the game, a/k/a "the system." So, what's different? The players.


1. We lost 3 great 3 point shooters and clearly didn't replace them. Kim said she was "looking for 10 more points per game. I have said before and say again, there are some good questions to be asked of Kim after the season. I doubt a reporter will ask and would advise Coach to be circumspect in answering, but clearly Danny White should be asking. We'll never know if he does or what the answers are, but some good ones are: How did you expect to replace that lost 3 point shooting?

2. What else is different about the players? Upper class leadership. Kim talked a lot last year about how much that team bought in, and especially how hard they worked which showed up in physicial changes for some players. Many of us thought Tess and Ace and some others weren't "well-suited" to Kim's style, but they bought in and tried, and the team out-performed pre-season expectations. And, as noted, was at least competitive in just about every game, even against the very best. It certainly left me excited for this year, and that seems to have been an outlook that was widely shared.

This year? She talked a lot about how the freshmen came in and worked hard, leading the effort in the practices. I suspect she didn't mention the upperclassmen because, frankly, they weren't leading. And, as far as I can tell, they haven't stepped up yet. Ruby's choices were a HUGE disappointment and distraction. Zee has taking a step back. Talaysia looked better early in the year and shows flashes, but she hasn't been the player overall that she was last year, and I don't see a lot of evidence that she's leading this team. Janiah? Her emotional/behavioral lapses on the court undeercut leadership, and she's been spotty in effort.

I know that blaming the system or claiming that Kim isn't up to the job is easy, but neither of those accounts for last year, for Marshall, or for her record at Glenville State. And, yes, there were differences to where she is now, including managing players with big dreams and often a group of people constantly talking to them about those dreams. That's something Coach Kim has never experienced, and evidence suggests she needs to adapt, both in recruiting (although the freshmen seem good) and in management. She's adapted over the course of her career. I'm still open to the possibility she will continue to adapt.

GBO!
One can also posit that the leaders and culture last year were attributable to players who developed that under Kellie. I see zero evidence that Kim has been able to help her players develop leadership skills or encourage a bonded team atmosphere. To me helping leaders develop and establishing a team culture are as important as X’s and O’s. Kim, as many have noted, throws the players under the bus with regularity. This certainly doesn’t help develop the Lady Vol family feel that Pat was so good at. Pat was super hard on her players yet they were totally devoted to her. I see that with Dawn and her team. I don’t see that connection between Kim and her players at all. Now, in fairness, we had years and years to see that with Pat.
I see no warmth or respect between Kim and the players going in either direction. Kim’s body language from day one has been one of defensiveness and it continues to today. Not my fault, not our fault, their fault.
 
One can also posit that the leaders and culture last year were attributable to players who developed that under Kellie. I see zero evidence that Kim has been able to help her players develop leadership skills or encourage a bonded team atmosphere. To me helping leaders develop and establishing a team culture are as important as X’s and O’s. Kim, as many have noted, throws the players under the bus with regularity. This certainly doesn’t help develop the Lady Vol family feel that Pat was so good at. Pat was super hard on her players yet they were totally devoted to her. I see that with Dawn and her team. I don’t see that connection between Kim and her players at all. Now, in fairness, we had years and years to see that with Pat.
I see no warmth or respect between Kim and the players going in either direction. Kim’s body language from day one has been one of defensiveness and it continues to today. Not my fault, not our fault, their fault.
Yeah, on the warmth issue, there was one game where a player ran up to Kim on the sideline after the game was won and Kim put her arms up to keep her at a distance.

Don't want to read too much into a single incident but.....
 
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100%, It ain't over till its over. It is easy for everyone to overreact after a 40+ loss and definitively conclude that the ship is sinking but this ship can be still turned around (mixed metaphor alert!!!).

We just need someone on the staff to convince everyone to do this-- "let's learn from these bad losses and make some adjustments." The trap is that the LV will likely do "the same" and beat Missouri comfortably . And everyone will go," Yes, now the players have finally gotten it!" Then, they will turn around and get crushed by TX (with "these aren't my players" coaching laments) as the team continues its wash, rinse, repeat cycle.
Is it possible to overreact to the worse loss in program history? A loss that was not impacted by injuries. A loss where the coach took zero responsibility for how the team looked. A loss where it looked like the team had no idea what they are supposed to be doing. A loss were some young players who had been making progress clearly regressed.
Maybe there is overreaction but short of illegal activity by the coaching staff I don’t know.
 
Is it possible to overreact to the worse loss in program history? A loss that was not impacted by injuries. A loss where the coach took zero responsibility for how the team looked. A loss where it looked like the team had no idea what they are supposed to be doing. A loss were some young players who had been making progress clearly regressed.
Maybe there is overreaction but short of illegal activity by the coaching staff I don’t know.
everything-is-fine-dog-meme.png

No question the SC blow out is a five alarm fire (and CKC's press conference = pouring gasoline on the conflagration)

But does this disaster game (and other "disaster" losses this season) mean the season is completely lost? Not necessarily (and that is the "overreaction" I was referencing).

I think we all agree that this team has the potential to make a run to the S16 (which I think is their ceiling) and that ending would feel a whole lot better than were we are now.

But as you and many others have noted, much has to change quickly to turn this season around. We will see if the coaching staff (and players) are up to the challenge.

I still think CKC can accomplish things here but she needs some growth and maturation in her overall coaching approach. You can see the big differences between her and top tier coaches.
 
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No question the SC blow out is a five alarm fire (and CKC's press conference = pouring gasoline on the conflagration)

But does this disaster game (and other "disaster" losses this season) mean the season is completely lost? Not necessarily (and that is the "overreaction" I was referencing).

I think we all agree that this team has the potential to make a run to the S16 (which I think is their ceiling) and that ending would feel a whole lot better than were we are now.

But as you and many others have noted, much has to change quickly to turn this season around. We will see if the coaching staff (and players) are up to the challenge.
Thanks for walking me off the ledge there. I think the press conference just flew all over me! Some of these kids are 18! They just got their driver’s licenses two years ago and our coach making millions doesn’t take any responsibility. Ooof, I may need a cocktail!😆
 
I have been a supporter of Kim all along and have had an optimistic outlook for the LVs since she has taken over. I think she did a spectacular job in her first year given her being a newbie here, all the mixture of players, given birth at a critical juncture in the season, keeping almost all of Kellie's players, playing great teams close, and getting a couple of huge wins. After our first couple of blowout losses this year, I felt discouraged about this particular team with its horrible shooting and lack of player leadership but also thought we might improve. This seemed to happen until the MSU game followed by the 2nd half of the UCONN game. Nevertheless, I thought the UCONN gave coach the best learning video ever, showing that they could hang with the best team in the country when putting their full effort out or could totally be horrible when they stop playing like a team. I thought we actually played decent for most of the first half against SC until the last few minutes when you could see us reverting to our worst tendencies. After the 2nd half debacle, it really felt like coach has lost this team. That for some reason, those dramatic chances to learn from earlier losses didn't take. And yes, this is partly due to not having team leaders but there are plenty of teams that don't have team leaders that still don't just fall apart completely each time the going gets rough. That is partly the coach's responsibility. Some of this is emotionally and interpersonally developing effective relationships with the players. Some of this is figuring out schematically and teaching how to help this team have more success when the other team seems to be clobbering the system. Do you just double down on what is not working? I think a good example of perhaps unrealistic demands on players is that the guards supposed to prioritize going for offensive rebounds yet still somehow be ready for good defense when the other team gets the rebound. An announcer of the game commented on this dilemma when Mia moved towards a possible offensive rebound but didn't quite get it and then got easily beat by SC due to her position on the court. It is hard for players to buy into a system in which they are not experiencing success with. In any case, for the first time I do worry about the LV future under Kim. I do want her to have time this year and especially next year to see what modifications she will do in recruiting, schematically, and overall team building. I don't buy that her major issue is that she doesn't know how to relate to players, though that is possibly the case for this year's team. Interpersonal effectiveness in coaches is every bit as important no matter what level you coach at, and she has been extremely successful everywhere she has been including what she did here last year. I do wonder if she needs to work more on dealing with the pressure that is unique to this particular job and more cautious about talking about her players to the media. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be shocked at all if things turn around next year dramatically. I just no longer am convinced of this.
 
i repeat she has 100% control of all that happens in the program
You can't stop someone from doing anything that's absurd. Guess she could have stopped Ruby from kicking the door in ? She has control over who is on the team. Laws don't stop crimes they just punish for crimes committed.
 
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ultimately of course she has 100 percent control of all that happens in that program
It's the difference between responsibility and accountability.
The players are (mostly but not completely) responsible for the play on the court. The head coach is held (mostly but not completely) accountable for the outcome of the game/season.
 
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You can see the big differences between her and top tier coaches.

Despite the ire this will arouse, the Most Despicable mastermind of the Evil Empire addressed the same issue—players going negative when things go badly— in his presser after playing us. Speaking of our brilliant, and their gawdawful, second quarter, he said it was his responsibility to help his team break away from the snowball effect. The third quarter indicates that he fulfilled that responsibility.

Note, he didn’t blame the players for what happened in Q2. He said he made some adjustments to help them do better. This is what one would expect of an experienced coach.

Please pay close attention around 3:45 and especially at4:40..

 
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Despite the ire this will arouse, the Most Despicable mastermind of the Evil Empire addressed the same issue—players going negative when things go badly— in his presser after playing us. Speaking of our brilliant, and their gawdawful, second quarter, he said it was his responsibility to help his team break away from the snowball effect. The third quarter indicates that he fulfilled that responsibility.

Note, he didn’t blame the players for what happened in Q2. He said he made some adjustments to help them do better. This is what one would expect of an experienced coach.
The fact that your "heretical" comparison will probably not raise much ire (or disagreement) is testament to the crisis-of-identity moment the program is now mired in.
 
You can't stop someone from doing anything that's absurd. Guess she could have stopped Ruby from kicking the door in ? She has control over who is on the team. Laws don't stop crimes they just punish for crimes committed.
now you are being silly coach couldnt have stopped ruby from kicking door in to answer you but she could determine how she would deal with situation which she did
 
It's the difference between responsibility and accountability.
The players are (mostly but not completely) responsible for the play on the court. The head coach is held (mostly but not completely) accountable for the outcome of the game/season.
for the "play on the court"? Geno or Dawn would have had a different solution. We are different i guess
 
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The freshman and this year’s portal players knew the style of ball they would be playing. Maybe some like that style others might not, but they knew what they were getting into. Also something just seems off with CKC, maybe it’s being a parent. Whatever this issue with her or team I think she can fix it.
A friend of mine who is a huge LV fan and was very supportive of the CKC hire has said several times to me how annoyed/defensive coach seems this season. I don’t watch a lot of her press conferences or pay too much attention to body language etc but Kim comes across really poorly more often than not imo. She comes across as very defensive and at times just flat out rude and unlikable. It’s not a great look. Pat was extremely tough and demanding but she also had a very warm personality and was easy to love and root for.
 
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Fans need to stop bashing Kim on social media… recruits see that stuff and Coaches are taking digs at her because they are afraid.
 
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A friend of mine who is a huge LV fan and was very supportive of the CKC hire has said several teams to me how annoyed/defensive coach seems this season. I don’t watch a lot of her press conferences or pay too much attention to body language etc but Kim comes across really poorly more often than not imo. She comes across as very defensive and at times just flat out rude and unlikable. It’s not a great look. Pat was extremely tough and demanding but she also had a very warm personality and was easy to love and root for.
Yall gotta stop comparing CKC to Pat, first & foremost. They are two different personalities. 2 entirely different people. She doesn’t have to be Pat. No one will ever measure up to her. Nor should they. Let coaches coach their own way & be their own people. I’d imagine she’s defensive & pissed off because her team goes out & plays horrendously inconsistent night in & night out & has the maturity level of a 6th graders.
 
I’d imagine she’s defensive & pissed off because her team goes out & plays horrendously inconsistent night in & night out & has the maturity level of a 6th graders.
Let me finish it for you. . . And doesn't have any idea how to fix it.

Thats the problem. Plus taking the public stance that she has no responsibility to figure it out.

Kim certainly deserves time to get on top of everything. But we really need to see her making an effort to do so. The current situation has gotten really exaggerated by the nature of the losses. We've never seen the LVs get blown out over and over like this and it's a shock to the system. I'm sure it's adding to the frustration of Kim and the players as well.
 
Yep...message boards is the least of the worries. Our issues are on video.
We've had this conversation so many times on this board. Any recruit whose decision hinges on the things said here is not one we want playing for the Lady Vols.
15-6 isn't a dumpster fire.
Multiple record setting blowouts and the coach and players openly feuding is a dumpster fire
 
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