The Kim Caldwell System

#251
#251
madtownvol said:
If I am a teacher with a class of Rhodes scholars and I keep complaining they can't learn what I am teaching them, maybe the problem is my teaching methods. Just sayin'....

This is 2 or maybe three times after a comfortable win, that CKC has uttered this complaint. Objectively, it is just an odd stance for a coach to take in a post-game press conference.
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I have to say when I hear her over and over again saying they aren’t following the game plan that it raises some alarm bells for me. If it’s an issue of them not being able to learn or follow it, then go back to the drawing board and find a better way of teaching it. If it’s an issue of them not wanting to learn or follow it, then continuing to reward them with playing time because “system” isn’t working either. I mean at the end of the day, it’s on her to get it through to them and put them in the best position to win.

I get that part of it is that she is young and inexperienced at this level. She is used to having players and coaching against players that were little recruited and maybe didn’t have the highest level of skills. They were fine with going out without question and playing hard and giving up stats to play in this system because it maximized what they could bring. It also won against the same level of competition and players. She’s in a whole new world now with players that have very high levels of skill and see basketball as a professional future. They may question more why they have to do things completely different than what has made them successful in the past.
 
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#254
#254
I don’t think so much a “gimmick system”, as she wants them to just play basketball, right or wrong. That was my understanding from what she said last year, I could be wrong. Just like we all did on the blacktop/backyard back in the day. When we were too young to know a set play if it smacked us in the face. Read the defense and make a decision, Pick-n-roll, pass-screen away, dribble hand off, basket cuts or whatever. Maybe I am wrong and it is a “gimmick”.

Either way entirely too much standing around for me, one of my biggest issues for years. And why can we not backdoor teams that overplay.

Have not seen anything related to the Dribble Drive offence she mentioned last year. Have noticed them trying to run set plays from the Horns set, here and there.
 
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#255
#255
volfan102455 said:
I agree but I think the problem is that this system doesn't really have well stated roles. It is more like ... if you think you have a shot take it approach.
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Outside of the point guard, the suddenly fashionable concept of “positionless basketball” inherently results in varying degrees of chaos and with only a vague suggestion of roles since everyone is apparently supposed to be playing them all or none of them or whatever.

And since our players are subbed so often it’s inherently more difficult to develop chemistry and momentum and consistency. The system appears to be hellbent on causing disruption, and it does result in creating some turnovers.

But on the flipside, it also causes constant disruption to OUR team, and that’s the rotten part.
 
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#258
#258
I believe the system works if you have seven or eight players that can shoot over 30 percent from the three and you need two at least that get close to 40 percent. System gives up to many easy baskets on defense so you need a very explosive offensive team that can put up over 20 points per quarter consistently.

In percentages that would be 45 percent overall and out of that 11 made threes. 72 shot average 32 field goals 64 points, 11 threes make it 75 points 8 to 10 free throws 83 to 85 points. This should keep you in every game with a chance to win.
 
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#260
#260
Volfan2012 said:
I believe the system works if you have seven or eight players that can shoot over 30 percent from the three and you need two at least that get close to 40 percent. System gives up to many easy baskets on defense so you need a very explosive offensive team that can put up over 20 points per quarter consistently.

In percentages that would be 45 percent overall and out of that 11 made threes. 72 shot average 32 field goals 64 points, 11 threes make it 75 points 8 to 10 free throws 83 to 85 points. This should keep you in every game with a chance to win.
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The entire system seems to be built on the thought that the team has a lot of more shots at the basket than their opponent. This is not happening against the better coached teams. Those teams are more than likely coached on how to either "stop the chaos" or take "advantage of the easy shots". That is why the blowouts occurred. The opponent was taking advantage of the chaos and using it against the LVs.
 
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#261
#261
volfan102455 said:
The entire system seems to be built on the thought that the team has a lot of more shots at the basket than their opponent. This is not happening against the better coached teams. Those teams are more than likely coached on how to either "stop the chaos" or take "advantage of the easy shots". That is why the blowouts occurred. The opponent was taking advantage of the chaos and using it against the LVs.
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And that’s how we got beat most of the time last season. Against better coached and more disciplined teams it just doesn’t really work.

Teams like Texas, LSU and others just aren’t going to turn the ball over like we need them to in order to win. The have enough talent and coaching that they’re going to have 10 turnovers max.

When we can’t turn teams over we have to rely on offensive rebounding for possessions and our rebounding has been mediocre at best. We got crushed on the glasses by Louisville and have been even or near even with most of the poorer teams we played.

The system relies on desire and effort and everyone being bought in and that just isn’t the case right now for whatever reason.
 
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#263
#263
I think we generally all agree that something has to change and change quickly or it is going to be a very long disappointing and maybe historic (for the wrong reason) season.
 
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#264
#264
I'm not as tuned in to basketball as I am football, but judging from lurking in the forum it seems Coach is about to learn a hard lesson akin to Butch. If you are unwilling to deviate from "the system" then that is likely the beginning of the end of your tenure.
 
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#265
#265
zeppelin128 said:
I'm not as tuned in to basketball as I am football, but judging from lurking in the forum it seems Coach is about to learn a hard lesson akin to Butch. If you are unwilling to deviate from "the system" then that is likely the beginning of the end of your tenure.
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Yep and she doesn't have the Josh Dobbs equivalent to bail her out. And even if she did, the system would have that player being substituted on a timed schedule.
 
#266
#266
volfan102455 said:
Yep and she doesn't have the Josh Dobbs equivalent to bail her out. And even if she did, the system would have that player being substituted on a timed schedule.
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I think the larger question is does this style of play prepare players for pro leagues? My layman view is no.

I mean, this is THE Lady Vols we are talking about, not Sister Mary's East-South Technical School. We shouldn't need a "gimmick" to win.
 
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#267
#267
volfan102455 said:
That is the "play harder" mentality - the good opponents "play smarter" so the "play harder" has no effect on them.
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When your high press systems leaves massive open spaces in the court that can be exploited with one pass, you can play as hard as humanely possible and you are still giving up those points.

Plus, I don't know of any quality team that does not put an emphasis on effort. Does anyone think that Geno, Dawn, Kim, and Vic let their players cruise on low effort?. Effort is not a differentiating factor. The rapid subbing is supposed to provide an effort edge but basketball is not a spin class. There are just too many stops and starts (via fouls, freethrows,etc.) to exhaust fit players.
 
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#269
#269
madtownvol said:
When your high press systems leaves massive open spaces in the court that can be exploited with one pass, you can play as hard as humanely possible and you are still giving up those points.

Plus, I don't know of any quality team that does not put an emphasis on effort. Does anyone think that Geno, Dawn, Kim, and Vic let their players cruise on low effort?. Effort is not a differentiating factor. The rapid subbing is supposed to provide an effort edge but basketball is not a spin class. There are just too many stops and starts (via fouls, freethrows,etc.) to exhaust fit players.
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Come on, face it. It’s a gimmick system.
 
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#271
#271
This system worked at the lower level. She needs to make some changes in her philosophy at this level IMO.

She's 4-10 so far against ranked opponents at TN I believe.
 
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#272
#272
KnoxLikeUs said:
Explain?
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I guess I assumed folks on here were also football savvy - but maybe not. Some thought that the schemes that Butch Jones ran was somewhat gimmicky as well. And he absolutely did not vary much during the years, but why should he? He recruited Josh Dobbs to Tennessee and quite honestly Dobbs was the type of QB that was going to make any offense successful. After Dobbs graduated the offense started to sputter and became less effective against the better teams. Jones also had some other incredible players on both sides of the ball that helped Tennessee be successful. So, some would say, having great players in key positions made his style look successful but it was NOT a system built on adjusting to maximize the skills of his players. To his credit he did start adjusting but it was too little too late. His time was up.

So, comparing to CKC who seems to be at least at this point unwilling to give in on any part of her system, I think she had players last season from Kellie's time that had good fundamental basketball skills that allowed them to play more smarter, and they did not always seem to stay completely in the system. They were not quick to shoot every time they touched the ball.

My comment though was that even if CKC somehow landed a Caitlin Clark type player, her system that constantly subs out players, would not take advantage of a player like that. It drives me completely crazy when a player in on fire with her shooting and CKC subs her anyway. When said player goes back in, the rhythm is more often than not - gone.
 
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#273
#273
madtownvol said:
Plus, I don't know of any quality team that does not put an emphasis on effort. Does anyone think that Geno, Dawn, Kim, and Vic let their players cruise on low effort?. Effort is not a differentiating factor. The rapid subbing is supposed to provide an effort edge but basketball is not a spin class. There are just too many stops and starts (via fouls, freethrows,etc.) to exhaust fit players.
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Exactly players on those teams are just as conditioned as the players on the LV team. And unless you have 10 players of the same caliber of the top 5 on the other team, it is like putting in your second string to play against the other team's first string.
 
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#275
#275
madtownvol said:
When your high press systems leaves massive open spaces in the court that can be exploited with one pass, you can play as hard as humanely possible and you are still giving up those points.

Plus, I don't know of any quality team that does not put an emphasis on effort. Does anyone think that Geno, Dawn, Kim, and Vic let their players cruise on low effort?. Effort is not a differentiating factor. The rapid subbing is supposed to provide an effort edge but basketball is not a spin class. There are just too many stops and starts (via fouls, freethrows,etc.) to exhaust fit players.
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Our effort is not superior once the press is broken. In fact it is lacking in half court. Kim can see that during games and on film.
 
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