Israel vs Palestinians II

#1,105
#1,105
n_huffhines said:
This is a joke. They've offered all the hostages and deals were rejected. At some point, the good guys need to act like good guys and not commit genocide.

We are not occupying Canada and haven't been kicking their teeth in and taking their land for 80 years. The metaphor doesn't work without that huge fkn component.
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See, you just said the quiet part out loud didn’t you? “deals were rejected”.
Deals?
They took hostages. HOSTAGES.
The only deal for hostage taking is “either release the hostages or we will destroy you”.
Plain. Simple. Just.

The only thing you get from accepting a “deal” with hostage takers is the assurance that there will be further taking of hostages.
 
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#1,108
#1,108
Persian Vol said:
You saw that most of that media is not American based right?

And the Israeli media and government do not have a history of lies?
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Ya, no. It’s a world wide problem. And it’s really dependent on which Israel media you’re talking about. They’re every bit as divided as Fox and MSNBC here.
The truth depends on who’s talking points you favor.
 
#1,113
#1,113
www.wfp.org

Famine confirmed for first time in Gaza | World Food Programme

FAO, UNICEF, WFP and WHO reiterate call for immediate ceasefire and unhindered humanitarian access to curb deaths from hunger and malnutrition Joint FAO/UNICEF/WHO/WFP News Release ROME/GENEVA/NEW YORK – More than half a million people in Gaza are trapped in famine, marked by widespread...
www.wfp.org www.wfp.org
 
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#1,114
#1,114
Orangeslice13 said:
Ya, no. It’s a world wide problem. And it’s really dependent on which Israel media you’re talking about. They’re every bit as divided as Fox and MSNBC here.
The truth depends on who’s talking points you favor.
Click to expand...

Why do you think the majority of the worlds media isn’t favorable toward Israel?
 
#1,117
#1,117
EasternVol said:
All that and we're still at Gaza being not Israel and occupied territory. Are you sure there was no sovereign after WWI? Wasn't the UK put in charge?
We're also still at Zionists running Muslim and Christian Arabs off their land in the preliminaries to and the actual Arab-Israeli war of 1948. Don't forget that Zionists were attacking Arab towns before Israel declared independence.
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Mandates were a League of Nations administrative system designed to prohibit sovereignty claims over lands conquered by Allied Powers. The codified goal was to help prepare those mandate areas for self-governance. The Brits had mandate for Ottoman territories or provinces of Palestine and Mesopotamia that became states Israel and Iraq. France administered lands that became Syrian and Lebanon.

Germany's effort to exterminate the Jew was not a singular occurrence or a moment in time, but rather the maturation of Jewish persecution throughout Europe and the Middle East, and even animosity in the U.S., evidenced by the heavy immigration restrictions of Holocaust Jews.

The British pulling out was red flag to the Jews it was time to declare independence. There were no restrictions on Arab immigration during the entire mandate era, while Jewish immigration had been increasingly restrictive along with at times eliminating their right to purchase land. The Brits had, often as not, been rendered impotent in maintaining law and order by Arab interests, hoping to avoid a regional conflict. At the same time some officials had even provoked Arab attacks on Jews, recommending circumstances in which Jews would be vulnerable and promising that should the Arabs crush them, as regional officers they would recommend abandoning the Jewish state idea to home office.

For the Jew, the 'now or never' moment was at hand and there was no place left to go if they were ever to be secure. In a situation where two peoples with individual cultural identities were warring over possession of the land both identified with. That sense - nationalism - had overflown into the Ottoman lands with the ascension of the Young Turks, just as it had in America, Europe and others before.

"Don't forget that Zionists were attacking Arab towns before Israel declared independence". Well, yes, and Arabs were attacking Jews, so what is the point? It was a hot conflict in 1947 and increasingly warm in years prior to.

It's striking that no one ever asked why did the Arabs flee so easily? Even in Palestine, they vastly outnumbered the Jew and had militias just like the Jews. Why didn't the Jews run?
And how could the Arab possibly lose? The attacking Arab nations populations outnumbered the Jews 57 to 1, 40 million to 700,000. They had relatively mature militaries and modern armament.

It was for those reasons the Jews were viewed as weak and ripe for eradication. It was that perceived weakness and Islamic fatalism that caused them to never accept any partition, no matter how favorable. The Arab, himself a colonizer of the land in 7thCE, gambled and lost. But they've been allowed for decades to dictate public opinion, mostly falsely premised as the Abraham accords revealed. We need more of that; the world telling the Arab just as you won, you lost, stop crying, we're tired of coddling you. That is the way forward.
 
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#1,121
#1,121
For anyone who'd like to know more about the Nakba - flight of the Arabs from Palestine - than you'll glean in a lifetime of media and forum opinion bites, this is an excellent overview. myths-and-facts-the-refugees

"Yabbut, what do you expect Jews to say?!?"
If they're going to whitewash the event, I'd expect them to omit footnoting the public references supporting their statements. It's literally an article so well-researched as to eliminate decades of ignorance for hundreds of millions.
If only they wanted to know.
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A sampling:

MYTH: "The Jews created the refugee problem by expelling the Palestinians."

FACT: The beginning of the Arab exodus can be traced to the weeks immediately following the announcement of the UN partition resolution. The first to leave were roughly 30,000 wealthy Arabs who anticipated the upcoming war and fled to neighboring Arab countries to await its end. Less affluent Arabs from the mixed cities of Palestine moved to all-Arab towns to stay with relatives or friends.6 By the end of January1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas to these refugees and to seal their borders against them.7

On January 30, 1948, the Jaffa newspaper, Ash Sha'ab, reported: "The first of our fifth-column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere....At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."8

Another Jaffa paper, As Sarih (March 30, 1948) excoriated Arab villagers near Tel Aviv for "bringing down disgrace on us all by 'abandoning the villages.'"9

Meanwhile, a leader of the Arab National Committee in Haifa, Hajj Nimer el-Khatib, said Arab soldiers in Jaffa were mistreating the (Arab) residents. "They robbed individuals and homes. Life was of little value, and the honor of women was defiled. This state of affairs led many [Arab] residents to leave the city under the protection of British tanks."10

John Bagot Glubb, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, said: "Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war."11

Contemporary press reports of major battles in which large numbers of Arabs fled conspicuously fail to mention any forcible expulsion by the Jewish forces. The Arabs are usually described as "fleeing" or "evacuating" their homes. While Zionists are accused of "expelling and dispossessing" the Arab inhabitants of such towns as Tiberias and Haifa, the truth is much different. Both of those cities were within the boundaries of the Jewish State under the UN partition scheme and both were fought for by Jews and Arabs alike.

Jewish forces seized Tiberias on April 19, 1948, and the entire Arab population of 6,000 was evacuated under British military supervision. The Jewish Community Council issued a statement afterward: "We did not dispossess them; they themselves chose this course....Let no citizen touch their property."12

In early April, an estimated 25,000 Arabs left the Haifa area following an offensive by the irregular forces led by Fawzi al-Qawukji, and rumors that Arab air forces would soon bomb the Jewish areas around Mt. Carmel.13 On April 23, the Haganah captured Haifa. A British police report from Haifa, dated April 26, explained that "every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe."14 In fact, David Ben-Gurionhad sent Golda Meir to Haifa to try to persuade the Arabs to stay, but she was unable to convince them because of their fear of being judged traitors to the Arab cause.15 By the end of the battle, more than 50,000 Palestinians had left.​
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"Yabbut still...Jew research!!"

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An army order issued July 6, 1948, made clear that Arab towns and villages were not to be demolished or burned, and that Arab inhabitants were not to be expelled from their homes.20

The Haganah did employ psychological warfare to encourage the Arabs to abandon a few villages. Yigal Allon, the commander of the Palmach (the "shock force of the Haganah"), said he had Jews talk to the Arabs in neighboring villages and tell them a large Jewish force was in Galilee with the intention of burning all the Arab villages in the Lake Hula region. The Arabs were told to leave while they still had time and, according to Allon, they did exactly that.21

In the most dramatic example, in the Ramle-Lod area, Israeli troops seeking to protect their flanks and relieve the pressure on besieged Jerusalem, forced a portion of the Arab population to go to an area a few miles away that was occupied by the Arab Legion. "The two towns had served as bases for Arab irregular units, which had frequently attacked Jewish convoys and nearby settlements, effectively barring the main road to Jerusalem to Jewish traffic."22

As was clear from the descriptions of what took place in the cities with the largest Arab populations, these cases were clearly the exceptions, accounting for only a small fraction of the Palestinian refugees.​
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#1,122
#1,122
NCFisher said:
For anyone who'd like to know more about the Nakba - flight of the Arabs from Palestine - than you'll glean in a lifetime of media and forum opinion bites, this is an excellent overview. myths-and-facts-the-refugees

"Yabbut, what do you expect Jews to say?!?"
If they're going to whitewash the event, I'd expect them to omit footnoting the public references supporting their statements. It's literally an article so well-referenced as to eliminate decades of ignorance for hundreds of millions.
If only they wanted to know.
----------------------------------------------
A sampling:

MYTH: "The Jews created the refugee problem by expelling the Palestinians."

FACT: The beginning of the Arab exodus can be traced to the weeks immediately following the announcement of the UN partition resolution. The first to leave were roughly 30,000 wealthy Arabs who anticipated the upcoming war and fled to neighboring Arab countries to await its end. Less affluent Arabs from the mixed cities of Palestine moved to all-Arab towns to stay with relatives or friends.6 By the end of January1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas to these refugees and to seal their borders against them.7

On January 30, 1948, the Jaffa newspaper, Ash Sha'ab, reported: "The first of our fifth-column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere....At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."8

Another Jaffa paper, As Sarih (March 30, 1948) excoriated Arab villagers near Tel Aviv for "bringing down disgrace on us all by 'abandoning the villages.'"9

Meanwhile, a leader of the Arab National Committee in Haifa, Hajj Nimer el-Khatib, said Arab soldiers in Jaffa were mistreating the (Arab) residents. "They robbed individuals and homes. Life was of little value, and the honor of women was defiled. This state of affairs led many [Arab] residents to leave the city under the protection of British tanks."10

John Bagot Glubb, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, said: "Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war."11

Contemporary press reports of major battles in which large numbers of Arabs fled conspicuously fail to mention any forcible expulsion by the Jewish forces. The Arabs are usually described as "fleeing" or "evacuating" their homes. While Zionists are accused of "expelling and dispossessing" the Arab inhabitants of such towns as Tiberias and Haifa, the truth is much different. Both of those cities were within the boundaries of the Jewish State under the UN partition scheme and both were fought for by Jews and Arabs alike.

Jewish forces seized Tiberias on April 19, 1948, and the entire Arab population of 6,000 was evacuated under British military supervision. The Jewish Community Council issued a statement afterward: "We did not dispossess them; they themselves chose this course....Let no citizen touch their property."12

In early April, an estimated 25,000 Arabs left the Haifa area following an offensive by the irregular forces led by Fawzi al-Qawukji, and rumors that Arab air forces would soon bomb the Jewish areas around Mt. Carmel.13 On April 23, the Haganah captured Haifa. A British police report from Haifa, dated April 26, explained that "every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe."14 In fact, David Ben-Gurionhad sent Golda Meir to Haifa to try to persuade the Arabs to stay, but she was unable to convince them because of their fear of being judged traitors to the Arab cause.15 By the end of the battle, more than 50,000 Palestinians had left.​
-------------------------------------------------

"Yabbut still...Jew research!!"

------------------------------------------------
An army order issued July 6, 1948, made clear that Arab towns and villages were not to be demolished or burned, and that Arab inhabitants were not to be expelled from their homes.20

The Haganah did employ psychological warfare to encourage the Arabs to abandon a few villages. Yigal Allon, the commander of the Palmach (the "shock force of the Haganah"), said he had Jews talk to the Arabs in neighboring villages and tell them a large Jewish force was in Galilee with the intention of burning all the Arab villages in the Lake Hula region. The Arabs were told to leave while they still had time and, according to Allon, they did exactly that.21

In the most dramatic example, in the Ramle-Lod area, Israeli troops seeking to protect their flanks and relieve the pressure on besieged Jerusalem, forced a portion of the Arab population to go to an area a few miles away that was occupied by the Arab Legion. "The two towns had served as bases for Arab irregular units, which had frequently attacked Jewish convoys and nearby settlements, effectively barring the main road to Jerusalem to Jewish traffic."22

As was clear from the descriptions of what took place in the cities with the largest Arab populations, these cases were clearly the exceptions, accounting for only a small fraction of the Palestinian refugees.​
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IMG_8869.jpeg
 
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#1,123
#1,123
NCFisher said:
No, I think you reference an excerpt, a portion, of something you don't understand, and I'm challenging you to identify the "rule" so we can peer talk. If you can't do that, why did you insert yourself into mine and Huff's conversation?

If you're going to recite me, than at least read and understand me. Genocide doesn't have a sanity or a Gauge of Success clause. It only requires an act be committed with the intent of destroying a group in whole or part. Hamas certainly intended to destroy as much of the group as they could on 10/7.

While I wouldn't opt for terming it genocide, Hamas more closely approximates the definition of genocide. Unlike Hamas and the Arab citizens who participated, IDF does not expressly and purposely attack civilians. It has no stated or implied desire to eradicate the Arab and, in fact, has 2.1 million equaling 21% of their citizenry, being...Arab.
I don't consider Hamas sane in any manner Western society identifies with.

Where? In their charter, their recitation of Quran of killing the Jew wherever he takes refuge, in their TV channel proclamations of recent vintage. You know, the things I painstakingly posted for you?
Pick up your end of the couch, old buddy.
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Please go ahead and make your point and explain how I'm misunderstanding something.
I understand what you've written, or at least I believe I do. If you think I've misunderstood then please let me know how I have.
Hamas apparently did intend to kill as many as possible on 10/7, including Arabs and Thais. Other than the part of the attack that was directed at IDF posts I would call it a terrorist attack but not genocide.
Where? Article 31 of their charter.
 
#1,125
#1,125
NCFisher said:
By 1945, Israel had purchased over 900 square kilometers of land, and that is against the backdrop of Ottoman prohibition against land sales to Jews in the 1800s. And the increasingly restrictive measure against Jewish purchases and immigration imposed by the British over the mandate entirety.
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In 1936 the British government appointed the Peel Commission to investigate the reasons for the civil unrest in Palestine. Lord Peel's findings on land purchase were as follows:

A summary of land legislation enacted during the Civil Administration shows the efforts made to fulfill the Mandatory obligation in this matter. The Commission point to serious difficulties in connection with the legislation proposed by the Palestine Government for the protection of small owners. The Palestine Order in Council and, if necessary, the Mandate should be amended to permit of legislation empowering the High Commissioner to prohibit the transfer of land in any stated area to Jews, so that the obligation to safeguard the right and position of the Arabs may be carried out. Until survey and settlement are complete, the Commission would welcome the prohibition of the sale of isolated and comparatively small plots of land to Jews. [...]

Up till now the Arab cultivator has benefited on the whole both from the work of the British Administration and the presence of Jews in the country, but the greatest care must now be exercised to see that in the event of further sales of land by Arabs to Jews the rights of any Arab tenants or cultivators are preserved. Thus, alienation of land should only be allowed where it is possible to replace extensive by intensive cultivation. In the hill districts there can be no expectation of finding accommodation for any large increase in the rural population. At present, and for many years to come, the Mandatory Power should not attempt to facilitate the close settlement of the Jews in the hill districts generally.

The shortage of land is due less to purchase by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population. The Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was bought.

Legislation vesting surface water in the High Commissioner is essential. An increase in staff and equipment for exploratory investigations with a view to increasing irrigation is recommended.
— Report of the Palestine Royal Commission, July 1937[23]
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From the 1880s to the 1930s, most Jewish land purchases were made in the coastal plain, the Jezreel Valley, the Jordan Valley and to a lesser extent the Galilee.[17] This was due to a preference for land that was cheap and without tenants.[17] There were two main reasons why these areas were sparsely populated. The first reason being when the Ottoman power in the rural areas began to diminish in the seventeenth century, many people moved to more centralized areas to secure protection against the Bedouin tribes.[17] The second reason for the sparsely populated areas of the coastal plains was the soil type. The soil, covered in a layer of sand, made it impossible to grow the staple crop of Palestine, corn.[17]As a result, this area remained uncultivated and underpopulated,[8] enabling the Jews to purchase land without a massive displacement and eviction of Arab tenants.[17]

In the 1930s, most of the land was bought from landowners. Of the land that the Jews bought, 52.6% were bought from non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian landowners, 13.4% from government, churches, and foreign companies, and only 9.4% from fellaheen (farmers).[20]

On 31 December 1944, out of the land owned in Palestine by large Jewish Corporations and private owners, about 44% was in possession of Jewish National Fund. The table below shows the land ownership of Palestine by large Jewish Corporations (in square kilometres) on 31 December 1945.
Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
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Exactly what seizures of territory are you referring to prior to 1948's Israel Declaration of Independence? After decades of trying to reach a settlement with Arabs over some partition that, no matter how favorable to the Arab - and they all were, ridiculously so - were turned down. These were, in the main, tenant occupiers of the land with no claim to ownership. But by stroke of luck of their 400 year rulers being deposed, were actually being offered land as if mana from heaven into their laps...and you refuse that.
You must be joking.
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So, that wasn't Hamas leaders on Hamas' At-Aqsa telly, saying eradicate the Jew stuff?

A senior Hamas official said in an interview aired last week that the October 7 attack against Israel were just the beginning, vowing to launch "a second, a third, a fourth" attack until the country is "annihilated."
Ghazi Hamad – whose comments were transcribed by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), a Washington-based think tank – added in the LBC interview that "Israel has no place on our land. We must remove the country because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe."
0000018b-8b9d-db7e-af9b-ebdfbee90000

You literally have to want to not see it, to not see it.
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You ask 'exactly what seizures of territory are you referring to prior to 1948's Israel Declaration of Independence?'. I had written 'during its formation and subsequent wars', but what would become the IDF had started ethnic cleansing with Deir Yassin and other attacks before independence was declared.
Ghazi Hamad's referring to the state, no?
 
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