Israel vs Palestinians II

[Ritzwatch]

No, he doesn’t actually read the crap he posts

Must not have the time, he is so busy blocking all the posters who can’t beat him in an argument.

 

[dalton_vol]

I think I read about this part in the book of Revelation. Just fulfilling prophesy.

There will be no lasting peace in Israel

 

[MAD]

Must not have the time, he is so busy blocking all the posters who can’t beat him in an argument.

Huff thinks he can find a three year old headline behind a paywall, which he did not read, spew his hate and we will just believe him.

Not me, I researched it and i have the answers.

I could do his work for him and post all my findings, but I’ve come to realize what’s the point?

There really is no point, he doesn’t want to understand, he is just so wrapped up in his Jew hatred he can’t see anything else

 

[Orangeslice13]

Huff thinks he can find a three year old headline behind a paywall, which he did not read, spew his hate and we will just believe him.

Not me, I researched it and i have the answers.

I could do his work for him and post all my findings, but I’ve come to realize what’s the point?

There really is no point, he doesn’t want to understand, he is just so wrapped up in his Jew hatred he can’t see anything else

He’s not a leftist….hes just quoting Israel’s version of MSNBC

 

[Ritzwatch]

Huff thinks he can find a three year old headline behind a paywall, which he did not read, spew his hate and we will just believe him.

Not me, I researched it and i have the answers.

I could do his work for him and post all my findings, but I’ve come to realize what’s the point?

There really is no point, he doesn’t want to understand, he is just so wrapped up in his Jew hatred he can’t see anything else

You have finally figured out the mystery of Huff.

Once you know legitimate conversation is impossible, you just quit trying.

 

[Orangeslice13]

There will be no lasting peace in Israel

That’s not exactly true.
It’s written before the Gog/MayGog war that Israel is living in peace and a massive attack catches them completely by surprise because they are living in peace and G-d himself smashes the attack. The result is Israel burns the weapons of their enemies for 7 years. For that to happen Israel must first experience a period of peace.

Edit: forgot the footnote. My bad.

EZ 38-39

 

[EasternVol]

It’s really not that hard to understand.
2 million Arabs in Israel living as citizens. No Jews in Gaza. There used to be. Where did they go?

Who is committing “Genocide” again?

Israel.

 

[EasternVol]

no doubt about that.
I am looking at what people willingly exchange for freedom. In western countries, they give up freedom for a sense of security. I feel like the folks in gaza desire other things more than freedom as well.

I'd say not being ethnically cleansed is near the top of their list.

 

[EasternVol]

After terming me ignorant and posting false history, I really expected more of a flourish from you.
I'll answer in a series of posts offering more than unsubstantiated drive-by comments, and that will provide historical background.

1) Here, I'll ask clarification to your comment in bold above; specifically what "new rules (after WWII)" do you refer to? This will put us on the same page, thanks.
2) And...yes, I agree. It was I who called attention to intent, explaining the definition of genocide does not refer the capability to destroy a group in whole or part. That was in response to @n_huffhines who continues to assert that because Hamas lacks the inherent capability themselves to destroy Israel, they cannot possibly be considered to commit genocidal acts. That argument ignores that the definition, flaunted repeatedly by him, is not premised on capability to do what one desires, but only the intent.

Hamas' goal is the same as every Islamist group preceding them or like them; a holy war of jihad in which Muslim nations unite to eradicate the Jewish state and erase the Jew. I'll detail this in the next post, examining only this point.

No need for a flourish, it's a simple matter of facts and neither of us are Salvador Dali.
Are you saying you are unaware of those rules? If so, why involve yourself in the discussion?
That intent to meet the definition of genocide was was pointed out by someone other than you several posts back when someone made the assertion that every tussle is genocide considering the actions listed. You're mistaken about lack of capability. If one is sane, one can't intend to do what is known to be impossible.
Where has hamas stated that goal as a matter of policy? Their charter says Jews are welcome to live in Palestine under hamas / Muslim rule.

 

[EasternVol]

Maybe you're right about that, considering you do more talking than anyone.

 

[KB5252]

Yes, LOL, hate is an appropriate response to a regime committing genocide.

I wonder if people thought "hate Germany" was some kind of checkmate in arguments 80 years ago.

Don't hate Germans. Don't hate Israelis. Hate genocidal regimes. Good rules of thumb.

He can hate what is happening to Palestinians, I'm not faulting him for that. What I'm faulting him for is claiming Israeli propaganda while spewing anti Israeli propaganda much of which is patently false. Furthermore he goes on to say if you show me proof it's just AI. This dude is anti Jew veiling just slightly under the guise of pro Hamas propaganda cunningly replacing Jew with zionist.

Let's be clear he's condemning an entire people for wanting a Jewish state...... There no disputing that, he chose those words, with great fervor and attitude. He's a POS. He's not like you or me, he's demonizing an entire nation whether they agree with him or not. He's part of the entire damn problem!

If the Jews had attacked the German people they might have had an actual case for their final solution...... Though it would have been overkill....... But by all means let's compare apples and oranges, leave out crucial details, or ignore then completely like that POS and pretend they're even close to the same thing. Honestly this guy is likely just doing this for e cred...... Which makes it even worse.

I dont condone the way Israel has prosecuted this conflict, plenty of room for criticism. But anyone who agrees with and cheers that dude on had zero credibilitly and next to zero intellectual honesty, he admits he has blinders on and isn't objective, making everything else he says a step or two above worthless at best.


Edit to add: sorry if this sounds like I'm unloading on you..... I'm not, I actually think you're a good dude, intellectually honest.

Been a long night, dealing with some animals on my farm with issues and I'm just getting into the house to relax and unwind...... obviously I need to concentrate on the unwinding........ But such is the life on a farm with special needs animals.......

 

[MAD]

I’m gonna get ahead of the jihadists and the antisemites before they start salivating.


This is the new hot fake news lies propaganda of the day.

 

[volfanhill]

If the Canadian government invaded the US murdered, raped, and kidnapped US citizens I would hope we carpet bomd the **** out of them until our hostages were returned. In this scenario Canadian children aren't more important than gaza citizens. You deserve whats coming. Do the children deserve it? No. But here we are.

Until every single hostage is released I dont care what Israel does. Their enemy isn't valuing life more than they are. Screw them.


Mine are worth more than yours.

 

[EasternVol]

Hamas is the elected, governing political body of Gazans who've launched continual attacks against Israel since their 1987 inception. They are the target group Israel intends to destroy, and they are a legitimate military target. Now you should understand the tongue in cheek phrasing that "Hamas is the only group Israel is genociding'.

After the Middle East was conquered and colonized by Arabs beginning in 7th century AD, the Arabs were subsequently conquered by the Ottoman Empire, who held 'Palestine' from about 1517 - 1917. The Ottomans had decided to enter WWI on the side of the Central Powers and were subsequently penalized for their failed venture by reduction of their territorial holdings. The British (and French) became primary overseers of the region, and architects of its future delineation. Following the end of the British Mandate resulting in the region being lobbed into the lap of the UN, Israel declared independence on May 15, 1948. They were attacked by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon the following day, the Arabs declaring to exterminate the Jew state and those pesky Jews who dared to hope. I'll have another post on that.

Following Israel's victory in 1948, administration of Gaza fell primarily to Egypt and some instance of cooperative administration by Syria when the two formed the UAR (Unite Arab Republic) consisting of just the two states. Except for a brief time of conflict over the Suez in 1956, Egypt was overseer of Gaza. Arab nations once again waged a genocidal effort to eradicate Israel in the 1967 Six Day War; once again lost, Israel ca[ptured Gaza, and Egypt subsequently ceded territorial claim to Gaza and Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt in 1979. Israel had become overseer and administrator for Gaza, likewise taking positions in the Golan and West Bank due to those governments' participation in the attempted genocide.

Occupation is not an illegitimate or illegal position unless taken in an offensive action. And I'd argue that if a position is continually the origin of attacks against me, at a time of my choosing the offender has no expectation of retaining that position, land ownership. No person or group can ever be under the expectation to interminably live under fear of attack. Israel did not have to withdraw from Gaza and allow Arab self-governance, but it did.

Now to the point of Hamas disposition towards the Jew, and the assertion they are free to stay, etc...I'm not sure how you wrote that with a straight face.

This is a nice encapsulation of Hamas past and present position on Jewry, not just in Palestine, not just in Arab nations, but wherever they are found. What Hamas Leaders Actually Want – In Their Own Words » ISGAP. I'll except those from Hamas' Al-Aqsa television network:

• On November 5, 2010, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, after justifying the persecution and expulsions of Jews in various societies over the last millennium, proclaimed, “[t]he series of expulsions continues to this day. Blood continues to be shed, martyrs continue to fall, our sons continue to hoist the banner high, and Allah willing, their expulsion from Palestine in its entirety is certain to come. We are no weaker or less honorable than the peoples that expelled and annihilated the Jews. The day we expel them is drawing near.”
• On May 11, 2011, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official and cleric Yunis Al-Astal explained, “[t]he [Jews] are brought in droves to Palestine so that the Palestinians – and the Islamic nation behind them – will have the honor of annihilating the evil of this gang,” promising, “n just a few years, all the Zionists and the settlers will realize that their arrival in Palestine was for the purpose of the great massacre, by means of which Allah wants to relieve humanity of their evil.”
  [*]On August 20, 2012, in a sermon broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official Sheik Ahmad Bahr prayed, “Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”
  [*]On March 2, 2014, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas cleric Wael Al-Zard noted that “[t]he Palestinian woman . . . . is no longer satisfied merely with equipping her sons for Jihad,” but that now “he equips herself, prepares herself, trains herself, and takes up arms herself.”
  [*]On March 23, 2014, at a “Perseverance and Loyalty to the Martyr’s Path” rally, broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Ismail Haniyah, head of Hamas’s political bureau, proclaimed that “[w]e are a people that yearn for death, just as our enemies yearn for life,” and Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad promised that Hamas would destroy Israel within a few years.
  [*]On January 29, 2016, Haniyah explained, “East of the city of Gaza, there are heroes underground, digging through rocks and building tunnels. West of Gaza, there are heroes testing rockets every day. This is all in preparation – in tunnels underground, by means of missiles in the air, as well as in the sea, and everywhere. This constant preparation is for the sake of Palestine, Jerusalem, Al-Aqsa, and for the sake of the Jerusalem Intifada.”
  [*]On July 12, 2018, at a rally broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamad predicted“the cleansing of Palestine of the filth of the Jews, and their uprooting from it, Allah willing” and “the establishment of the Caliphate, after the nation has been healed of its cancer – the Jews – Allah willing.”
  [*]On November 16, 2018, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar declared that Israel “will never get anything but guns, fire, martyrdom, death, and killing” from Gaza.
  [*]On July 22, 2018, during a speech broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Gaza Shari’a appeals court judge Sheikh Omar Nofal praised the six virtues of martyrdom, calling it an “individual duty incumbent upon the entire nation,” and asking “[h]ow can anyone cling to this world after hearing all of these great rewards?”
  [*]On June 23, 2019, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras explained about Jews that, “everything people say about massacres and Holocaust – these are all lies. Hitler may have hated them, but it was because of their deeds and crimes.”
  [*]On July 12, 2019, at a March of Return rally that aired on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas Political Bureau member Fathi Hammad implored “you seven million Palestinians abroad, enough warming up! There are Jews everywhere! We must attack every Jew on planet Earth – we must slaughter and kill them, with Allah’s help.” He instructed, “[w]e will die while exploding and cutting the necks and legs of the Jews. We will lacerate them and tear them to pieces, Allah willing!”
  [*]On May 7, 2021, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, senior Hamas official Fathi Hammad called for Palestinians in Jerusalem to “cut off the heads of the Jews.”
  [*]On December 12, 2022, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, head of the Hamas Women’s Movement Rajaa Al-Halabi explained that a girl who sets out to be a “martyrdom-seeker” has “only one thing on her mind – to meet her Lord by means of her blood and her body parts,” noting that kindergarten teachers raise children to love Jihad.
  [*]On April 8, 2022, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official Talal Nassar opined, “I believe that the occupation is heading towards annihilation, and on this platform, I swear by Allah, and let everybody remember this pledge: Those of us who will still be alive will tread with their pure feet… After we trample with our feet all over the skulls of the Zionists, we will tread on the land of Haifa, Jaffa, Tiberias, Jerusalem, and all of the West Bank and our dear [Gaza] Strip. There is no difference between the [borders of] 1967 and 1948.”

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From Hamas' 1988 charter Covenant hamas.asp

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
-----------------------------------
I'm not sure what to make of someone who thinks that should Israel be destroyed, Jews who remained under Muslim rule and diimmi status would live very long or have an existence someone would like for themself.

Next post I'll talk a bit more about land acquisition by native Jews and Jewish groups in the 1800s and the Zionist movement.

Israel's seizures of territory during its formation and subsequent wars was hardly defensive at any rate, but for giggles where is the clause allowing conquest as a defensive action? Conquest as defense sounds like 1984, no?
Let's leave the goalposts where they are and look at actual hamas policy and not hotheaded speeches by political operatives. You can compare what you quoted to some of our 'leaders' statements, rhetoric intended to rile the masses but not official policy.
Since you quote the charter, here's another excerpt which actually pertains to policy. I'll include the entire clause for scope:

Article Thirty-One:​

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.
Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.
It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.
"They will not fight against you in a body, except in fenced towns, or from behind walls. Their strength in war among themselves is great: thou thinkest them to be united; but their hearts are divided. This, because they are people who do not understand." (The Emigration - verse 14).
Islam confers upon everyone his legitimate rights. Islam prevents the incursion on other people's rights. The Zionist Nazi activities against our people will not last for long. "For the state of injustice lasts but one day, while the state of justice lasts till Doomsday."
"As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).

​

 

[EasternVol]

I remembered it wrong. He bombed Libya next door killing their longtime leader Gadhafi. He was also our president sadly when Egypt did overthrow their 1st democratically elected president and the Muslim Brotherhood came into power. He dropped the ball on Egypt just like everywhere else. He also ran on spreading peace...then bombed at least 6 different nations that we know about including using a drone strike to kill a US citizen. He was an absolute moron when it came to foreign policy just like the Biden administration. Screwed up everything he touched and projected weakness on the world stage, such that all those with bad intentions did whatever they wanted knowing our feckless "leader" didnt have the resolve to stop them. Empty threats from an empty suit.

So we were bombing Libya with bunghole seeking bayonets? That's news.
Yes Obama's actions against Ghadafi and most of his foreign policy were idiotic.

 

[MAD]

Are there any military people here that can explain what NCOs are and what role do they have? Not sure who this reporter is, but he was saying he felt that’s what Israel was lacking.

 

[NCFisher]

1) Gaza isn't Israel; it's occupied territory. Any government attacking a foe with the disregard for noncombatant casualties and frequent targeting of noncombatants like Israel has done would also be condemned as Israel, Sudan, Myanmar, and Russia have.

2) They tried but only ran off 750,000 or so,, Muslims and Christians. What other country would take them and why? They're not Egyptians or Jordanians; they're Palestinians.
It wasn't a gift and it wasn't Israel's to gift.

1). What nation was disenfranchised when Israel captured Gaza in 1967, defending against multiple Arab states? Here we are exposed to Israel's challenge against charges of an illegal occupation, or occupation at all. It's an argument termed "missing sovereign". There was no sovereign state following the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire - nor since - to claim injury. There was no Palestinian government signatory regarding cessation of hostilities, or to ensure a mutual security agreement.

2) Until Israel declared independence May 14, 1948, there was no Israeli government and no Jewish military. There were Jewish militias - Irgun, Lehi, Stern, Haganah the most notable - referred to by the Arabs as 'gangs'. A population of 700K Jews was immediately attacked the next day by Arab nations numbering 40 million citizens.

Nakba, the "running off of 750,000 or so Arabs": while I think the whole presentation worth a listen, 5:50 - 16:00 speaks to the assertion of purging the Arabs, as recounted by Jewish Palestinians and Arab Palestinians. It is particularly noteworthy because it takes a look at the highly publicized militia action at the town of Deir Yassin, and causative effect on Arab flight from Palestine. It has been described as a 'massacre' and in isolation and without reference, I'd agree. That's the problem, however. The Arab-Israeli war began with the UN announcement of partition on November 29, 1947. Arab forces began rioting and waging attacks just as problematic as Deir Yassin.

Jerusalem had been cut off from all aid for about 6 months, and there began execution of a plan to reach them. Previous attempts had been stopped by attacks from roadside villages. Deir Yassin does not appear to have been one of those blockading towns and I'm not clear why it was selected for clearing, but it was. In the end, 100-110 villagers were killed, 4 Jewish militia members, and 45 or so wounded militia. Only the fringe do not acknowledge this would fit the description of war crime. Jews from a nearby village interceded forcefully, stopping the killing.

As depicted by Hazem Nusseibeh/Palestine Broadcasting Service, the decision was to make Deir Yassin a propaganda centerpiece of utmost embellishment. The desired effect was to draw Arab nations into the conflict full-force, but as he notes it was their greatest mistake. As word of the inflated incident spread like wildfire via Arab news agencies - with false rape allegations being highlighted by the Arab contributors as a specific driver - Arabs exponentially fled in higher numbers. He states they did not anticipate how our people would react, they fled all our villages. .

In addition, Mahmoud Abbas alluded to Arab leaders encouraging - even forced - Arabs to leave, that they might return in a matter of days or weeks, once the Jew was erased. And that an absence of fellow Arabs would make this easier. This is often dismissed as Israeli propaganda, but Abbas clearly states otherwise in a column for the official PLO journal Falastin al-Thawra in March 1976, writing "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe".

I haven't looked at the claim that Jewish officials encouraged Arabs NOT to leave their homes.

And - they're just Arabs, like Jordanians, Egyptians, etc. Not even Hamas is fighting for 'a Palestinian homeland' but just more Arab land for all Arabs. The original mandate 1920 called for TransJordan to be part of Palestine and the Jewish homeland because it originally was. That was removed by Churchill in 1921.

Lastly on this note, even among 'Zionists' there were leaders who espoused living alongside the Arab; many of these were either/both religious or socialists. Even among some Arabs there were/are some who espouse the same. It's beyond me to quantify them.

 

[NCFisher]

No need for a flourish, it's a simple matter of facts and neither of us are Salvador Dali.
Are you saying you are unaware of those rules? If so, why involve yourself in the discussion?
That intent to meet the definition of genocide was was pointed out by someone other than you several posts back when someone made the assertion that every tussle is genocide considering the actions listed. You're mistaken about lack of capability. If one is sane, one can't intend to do what is known to be impossible.
Where has hamas stated that goal as a matter of policy? Their charter says Jews are welcome to live in Palestine under hamas / Muslim rule.

No, I think you reference an excerpt, a portion, of something you don't understand, and I'm challenging you to identify the "rule" so we can peer talk. If you can't do that, why did you insert yourself into mine and Huff's conversation?

If you're going to recite me, than at least read and understand me. Genocide doesn't have a sanity or a Gauge of Success clause. It only requires an act be committed with the intent of destroying a group in whole or part. Hamas certainly intended to destroy as much of the group as they could on 10/7.

While I wouldn't opt for terming it genocide, Hamas more closely approximates the definition of genocide. Unlike Hamas and the Arab citizens who participated, IDF does not expressly and purposely attack civilians. It has no stated or implied desire to eradicate the Arab and, in fact, has 2.1 million equaling 21% of their citizenry, being...Arab.
I don't consider Hamas sane in any manner Western society identifies with.

Where? In their charter, their recitation of Quran of killing the Jew wherever he takes refuge, in their TV channel proclamations of recent vintage. You know, the things I painstakingly posted for you?
Pick up your end of the couch, old buddy.

 

[MAD]

No, I think you reference an excerpt, a portion, of something you don't understand, and I'm challenging you to identify the "rule" so we can peer talk. If you can't do that, why did you insert yourself into mine and Huff's conversation?

If you're going to recite me, than at least read and understand me. Genocide doesn't have a sanity or a Gauge of Success clause. It only requires an act be committed with the intent of destroying a group in whole or part. Hamas certainly intended to destroy as much of the group as they could on 10/7.

While I wouldn't opt for terming it genocide, Hamas more closely approximates the definition of genocide. Unlike Hamas and the Arab citizens who participated, IDF does not expressly and purposely attack civilians. It has no stated or implied desire to eradicate the Arab and, in fact, has 2.1 million equaling 21% of their citizenry, being...Arab.
I don't consider Hamas sane in any manner Western society identifies with.

Where? In their charter, their recitation of Quran of killing the Jew wherever he takes refuge, in their TV channel proclamations of recent vintage. You know, the things I painstakingly posted for you?
Pick up your end of the couch, old buddy.

Love reading your content, although it probably gets ignored by the people it’s intended for. Nobody can fault you for making an effort and being respectful, hopefully you are able to start a productive conversation.

Anyways, I copied this from something I watched earlier and it resonated after reading your pst.


People who say the most horrendous things about the Jews know deep down that you are telling a truth that they don’t like because it goes against a preferred narrative or they are just raciest. Hamas can’t win the truth and they can’t win on the battlefield. But they can win the propaganda war if they lie hard enough and throw in a little casual antisemitism.

 

[NCFisher]

Israel's seizures of territory during its formation and subsequent wars was hardly defensive at any rate, but for giggles where is the clause allowing conquest as a defensive action? Conquest as defense sounds like 1984, no?
Let's leave the goalposts where they are and look at actual hamas policy and not hotheaded speeches by political operatives. You can compare what you quoted to some of our 'leaders' statements, rhetoric intended to rile the masses but not official policy.
Since you quote the charter, here's another excerpt which actually pertains to policy. I'll include the entire clause for scope:

Article Thirty-One:​

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.
Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.
It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.
"They will not fight against you in a body, except in fenced towns, or from behind walls. Their strength in war among themselves is great: thou thinkest them to be united; but their hearts are divided. This, because they are people who do not understand." (The Emigration - verse 14).
Islam confers upon everyone his legitimate rights. Islam prevents the incursion on other people's rights. The Zionist Nazi activities against our people will not last for long. "For the state of injustice lasts but one day, while the state of justice lasts till Doomsday."
"As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).

​

By 1945, Israel had purchased over 900 square kilometers of land, and that is against the backdrop of Ottoman prohibition against land sales to Jews in the 1800s. And the increasingly restrictive measure against Jewish purchases and immigration imposed by the British over the mandate entirety.
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In 1936 the British government appointed the Peel Commission to investigate the reasons for the civil unrest in Palestine. Lord Peel's findings on land purchase were as follows:

A summary of land legislation enacted during the Civil Administration shows the efforts made to fulfill the Mandatory obligation in this matter. The Commission point to serious difficulties in connection with the legislation proposed by the Palestine Government for the protection of small owners. The Palestine Order in Council and, if necessary, the Mandate should be amended to permit of legislation empowering the High Commissioner to prohibit the transfer of land in any stated area to Jews, so that the obligation to safeguard the right and position of the Arabs may be carried out. Until survey and settlement are complete, the Commission would welcome the prohibition of the sale of isolated and comparatively small plots of land to Jews. [...]

Up till now the Arab cultivator has benefited on the whole both from the work of the British Administration and the presence of Jews in the country, but the greatest care must now be exercised to see that in the event of further sales of land by Arabs to Jews the rights of any Arab tenants or cultivators are preserved. Thus, alienation of land should only be allowed where it is possible to replace extensive by intensive cultivation. In the hill districts there can be no expectation of finding accommodation for any large increase in the rural population. At present, and for many years to come, the Mandatory Power should not attempt to facilitate the close settlement of the Jews in the hill districts generally.

The shortage of land is due less to purchase by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population. The Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was bought.

Legislation vesting surface water in the High Commissioner is essential. An increase in staff and equipment for exploratory investigations with a view to increasing irrigation is recommended.
— Report of the Palestine Royal Commission, July 1937[23]
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From the 1880s to the 1930s, most Jewish land purchases were made in the coastal plain, the Jezreel Valley, the Jordan Valley and to a lesser extent the Galilee.[17] This was due to a preference for land that was cheap and without tenants.[17] There were two main reasons why these areas were sparsely populated. The first reason being when the Ottoman power in the rural areas began to diminish in the seventeenth century, many people moved to more centralized areas to secure protection against the Bedouin tribes.[17] The second reason for the sparsely populated areas of the coastal plains was the soil type. The soil, covered in a layer of sand, made it impossible to grow the staple crop of Palestine, corn.[17]As a result, this area remained uncultivated and underpopulated,[8] enabling the Jews to purchase land without a massive displacement and eviction of Arab tenants.[17]

In the 1930s, most of the land was bought from landowners. Of the land that the Jews bought, 52.6% were bought from non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian landowners, 13.4% from government, churches, and foreign companies, and only 9.4% from fellaheen (farmers).[20]

On 31 December 1944, out of the land owned in Palestine by large Jewish Corporations and private owners, about 44% was in possession of Jewish National Fund. The table below shows the land ownership of Palestine by large Jewish Corporations (in square kilometres) on 31 December 1945.
Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
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Exactly what seizures of territory are you referring to prior to 1948's Israel Declaration of Independence? After decades of trying to reach a settlement with Arabs over some partition that, no matter how favorable to the Arab - and they all were, ridiculously so - were turned down. These were, in the main, tenant occupiers of the land with no claim to ownership. But by stroke of luck of their 400 year rulers being deposed, were actually being offered land as if mana from heaven into their laps...and you refuse that.
You must be joking.
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So, that wasn't Hamas leaders on Hamas' At-Aqsa telly, saying eradicate the Jew stuff?

A senior Hamas official said in an interview aired last week that the October 7 attack against Israel were just the beginning, vowing to launch "a second, a third, a fourth" attack until the country is "annihilated."
Ghazi Hamad – whose comments were transcribed by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), a Washington-based think tank – added in the LBC interview that "Israel has no place on our land. We must remove the country because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe."
0000018b-8b9d-db7e-af9b-ebdfbee90000

You literally have to want to not see it, to not see it.

 

[MAD]

Some of you have been slacking.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Trash

 

[Orangeslice13]

If the Canadian government invaded the US murdered, raped, and kidnapped US citizens I would hope we carpet bomd the **** out of them until our hostages were returned. In this scenario Canadian children aren't more important than gaza citizens. You deserve whats coming. Do the children deserve it? No. But here we are.

Until every single hostage is released I dont care what Israel does. Their enemy isn't valuing life more than they are. Screw them.


Mine are worth more than yours.

No, these dumb MFers think Israel should care for and are more responsible for the people of Gaza that the elected leaders of Gaza.

 

[NashVol11]

If the Canadian government invaded the US murdered, raped, and kidnapped US citizens I would hope we carpet bomd the **** out of them until our hostages were returned. In this scenario Canadian children aren't more important than gaza citizens. You deserve whats coming. Do the children deserve it? No. But here we are.

Until every single hostage is released I dont care what Israel does. Their enemy isn't valuing life more than they are. Screw them.


Mine are worth more than yours.

You are saying they are less important than our citizens, and that Gaza's citizens are less important than Israeli citizens, so I'm glad you edited to say that explicitly. People love to say things like "I'd bomb their whole country to save one American," and I'm sure that's fun to say but it doesn't make it a less terrible thing to do. Israel has killed a bunch of American citizens as well, and lots of women and children and aid workers that it didn't "need" to kill to save its citizens

 

[KB5252]

Israel's seizures of territory during its formation and subsequent wars was hardly defensive at any rate, but for giggles where is the clause allowing conquest as a defensive action? Conquest as defense sounds like 1984, no?
Let's leave the goalposts where they are and look at actual hamas policy and not hotheaded speeches by political operatives. You can compare what you quoted to some of our 'leaders' statements, rhetoric intended to rile the masses but not official policy.
Since you quote the charter, here's another excerpt which actually pertains to policy. I'll include the entire clause for scope:

Article Thirty-One:​

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.
Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.
It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.
"They will not fight against you in a body, except in fenced towns, or from behind walls. Their strength in war among themselves is great: thou thinkest them to be united; but their hearts are divided. This, because they are people who do not understand." (The Emigration - verse 14).
Islam confers upon everyone his legitimate rights. Islam prevents the incursion on other people's rights. The Zionist Nazi activities against our people will not last for long. "For the state of injustice lasts but one day, while the state of justice lasts till Doomsday."
"As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).

​

The seizing of land could be argued as defensive. Particularly the Golan Heights. It was strategic territory used for attacks on Israel.

I won't argue Israel hasn't acted in bad faith at times. But the land seized in almost every instance came after coordinated attacks from it's neighbors, from that territory seized.