War in Ukraine

#88,876
#88,876
Grand Vol said:
And why did Sweden and Finland join anyway? Was Russia a threat to them?



You mean other than a whole mess of western politicians taking about NATO membership for them?



Funny, the same can be said of Zelensky



No matter what Western media or some posters say on here, nukes were not and are not an option in Ukraine. Putin knows it, we know it, everyone knows it. You're smart enough to know it too.
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Sweden and Finland joined NATO because Russia attacked an non-NATO neighbor of Russia. they joined because despite all of Putin's barking, its just that barking. he won't try anything with NATO. anyone not in NATO, aka Ukraine, is fair game.

got links to these preemptive "mess of western politicians talking about NATO membership?"

issue with your Zelensky argument is that he didn't start the war, and he is following their Constitution. yes its a crappy clause in the Constitution but it still exists. How do you propose they hold a fair election in Ukraine? Do they just go to the existing conflict border, abandoning the held parts? or do they try to hold the election in the held territories and trust Putin to not dump 50 million ballots into the system? assuming you want in person voting because mail ins and electronics aren't trustworthy, how do you guarantee safety of voters during a war when Putin has deliberately targeted civilian populations? its real easy to complain about the situation but no one has a real alternative.

take that argument up with Putin. he has discussed their use in the conflict. saying their use has not been needed. he hasn't ruled them out. its been one of his sticks trying to keep the west out of Ukraine.
 
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#88,877
#88,877
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
I get that America overthrew plenty of countries in our day using CIA and supporting bad actors. I realize we are not perfect nor have we ever been perfect toward the world.
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I hope you're also acknowledging we still do that to this day.

Or do you really think Iraq and Afghanistan really, really, really wanted western style democracy.

SayUWantAreVOLution said:
But communism and the Soviet states alliances FAILED. It's not in the interest of the United States to allow Russia to restart that kind of behavior. There is ZERO reason to justify Russia's invasion EXCEPT that Putin wants control of that land. Putin WANTS the old Russian system of capitulation at the end of a tank to be true again.

Ukraine isn't interested in that. The Ukrainian people have a right to autonomy. Yes or no?
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I don't think I've tried to justify what Putin did. I'm simply saying not everything is black and white.

So I can see why he did it instead of being a mouth breathing knuckle dragger screaming "Murica!" every chance I get.
 
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#88,878
#88,878
Grand Vol said:
I hope you're also acknowledging we still do that to this day.

Or do you really think Iraq and Afghanistan really, really, really wanted western style democracy.



I don't think I've tried to justify what Putin did. I'm simply saying not everything is black and white.

So I can see why he did it instead of being a mouth breathing knuckle dragger screaming "Murica!" every chance I get.
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there is a big difference in "seeing why he did it" and knowing its bs reasoning; vs "seeing why he did it" and blaming the US.
 
#88,879
#88,879
Grand Vol said:
No matter what Western media or some posters say on here, nukes were not and are not an option in Ukraine. Putin knows it, we know it, everyone knows it. You're smart enough to know it too.
Click to expand...


Have to agree with you there. Even a so-called "battlefield nuke" would earn the permanent wrath of every other country on Earth and Putin knows the World would unite against him and force him out of power, relegating all of Russia to decades of economic calamity which would cripple it forever.
 
#88,880
#88,880
Grand Vol said:
I hope you're also acknowledging we still do that to this day.

Or do you really think Iraq and Afghanistan really, really, really wanted western style democracy.



I don't think I've tried to justify what Putin did. I'm simply saying not everything is black and white.

So I can see why he did it instead of being a mouth breathing knuckle dragger screaming "Murica!" every chance I get.
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It's actually not knuckle dragging to want the safety of my family to be paramount in my country's decisions.

I KNOW why Russia invaded but I don't CARE what Russia wants. A weaker Russia is a safer world for me and mine. A stronger and emboldened Russia wasn't safer in the past and wouldn't be in the future for my family.

As for Afghanistan. We needed, unfortunately, to do better at finding Osama but he had help from our faux allies in the middle east in laying low. His long-term survival had Saudi intelligence written all over it. They're two faced but too essential to the oil market to not hold our nose and be friendly to them.

Iraq was Bush43 wanting to punish Saddam for trying to kill Bush41 AND Dick Cheney wanting to get personally wealthy from his military contracts. A complete mistake.
 
#88,881
#88,881
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
It's actually not knuckle dragging to want the safety of my family to be paramount in my country's decisions.

I KNOW why Russia invaded but I don't CARE what Russia wants. A weaker Russia is a safer world for me and mine. A stronger and emboldened Russia wasn't safer in the past and wouldn't be in the future for my family.

As for Afghanistan. We needed, unfortunately, to do better at finding Osama but he had help from our faux allies in the middle east in laying low. His long-term survival had Saudi intelligence written all over it. They're two faced but too essential to the oil market to not hold our nose and be friendly to them.

Iraq was Bush43 wanting to punish Saddam for trying to kill Bush41 AND Dick Cheney wanting to get personally wealthy from his military contracts. A complete mistake.
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we should have dumped the saudis for Russia in the aftermath of the soviet unions collapse
 
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#88,882
#88,882
Grand Vol said:
I would have used UGA as an example instead of OU, but anyway.

The difference is, should you be singing Rocky Top in <insert opponents stadium here> knowing full well you could (and sometimes will) provoke a reaction? Especially if you start singing it right in the face of the fan that said they're going to have an issue with it?
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Uh yeah, there's never an inappropriate time or place to sign Rocky Top.
 
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#88,883
#88,883
apevol said:
not to butt in but rights aren't magic.

if you believe in God, you likely believe they are given by God.

If you don't, you likely believe they're a construct crafted by collective morality.

either way, rights don't mean anything if you can't claim them. The majority of this world's population don't believe in modern Western values
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Rights don't mean anything if you can't defend them. Thank goodness for the 2A
 
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#88,884
#88,884
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
It's actually not knuckle dragging to want the safety of my family to be paramount in my country's decisions.

I KNOW why Russia invaded but I don't CARE what Russia wants. A weaker Russia is a safer world for me and mine. A stronger and emboldened Russia wasn't safer in the past and wouldn't be in the future for my family.

As for Afghanistan. We needed, unfortunately, to do better at finding Osama but he had help from our faux allies in the middle east in laying low. His long-term survival had Saudi intelligence written all over it. They're two faced but too essential to the oil market to not hold our nose and be friendly to them.

Iraq was Bush43 wanting to punish Saddam for trying to kill Bush41 AND Dick Cheney wanting to get personally wealthy from his military contracts. A complete mistake.
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Your government is an exponentially bigger threat to your family than Putin.
 
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#88,886
#88,886
apevol said:
we should have dumped the saudis for Russia in the aftermath of the soviet unions collapse
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I think the Saudis are two faced BUT they've contented themselves to get rich, somewhat help focus terror away from America, and basically just enjoy the decadence wealth brings.

Russia has never been able to help themselves and always turns into a military problem. It goes back to the Russian people never really embracing a Western mindset. As a people, they seem to like a very very strong tsar or strongman controlling their politics, media, economy, etc. Until they REALLY throw off that mindset that "Daddy Kremlin" can run things, they will find themselves under strongman after strongman.
 
#88,887
#88,887
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
I think the Saudis are two faced BUT they've contented themselves to get rich, somewhat help focus terror away from America, and basically just enjoy the decadence wealth brings.

Russia has never been able to help themselves and always turns into a military problem. It goes back to the Russian people never really embracing a Western mindset. As a people, they seem to like a very very strong tsar or strongman controlling their politics, media, economy, etc. Until they REALLY throw off that mindset that "Daddy Kremlin" can run things, they will find themselves under strongman after strongman.
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no matter how estranged we become from Russia we have infinitely more in common with them than the saudis
 
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#88,888
#88,888
LouderVol said:
Sweden and Finland joined NATO because Russia attacked an non-NATO neighbor of Russia. they joined because despite all of Putin's barking, its just that barking. he won't try anything with NATO. anyone not in NATO, aka Ukraine, is fair game.

got links to these preemptive "mess of western politicians talking about NATO membership?"
Click to expand...

You've seen them plenty on here discussed before...

But since you asked, paragraph 17 I think

NATO - Official text: Brussels Summit Communiqué issued by NATO Heads of State and Government (2021), 14-Jun.-2021 https://share.google/EFxU1wRyxTSAzQx6D

Excuse the Wiki article, but all the relevant links are here as well:

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia https://share.google/IE0W7JHhKT3ogDMeH

LouderVol said:
issue with your Zelensky argument is that he didn't start the war, and he is following their Constitution. yes its a crappy clause in the Constitution but it still exists. How do you propose they hold a fair election in Ukraine? Do they just go to the existing conflict border, abandoning the held parts? or do they try to hold the election in the held territories and trust Putin to not dump 50 million ballots into the system? assuming you want in person voting because mail ins and electronics aren't trustworthy, how do you guarantee safety of voters during a war when Putin has deliberately targeted civilian populations? its real easy to complain about the situation but no one has a real alternative.

take that argument up with Putin. he has discussed their use in the conflict. saying their use has not been needed. he hasn't ruled them out. its been one of his sticks trying to keep the west out of Ukraine.
Click to expand...

I was referring more to the fact he banned political parties and jailed opponents that were pro Russia.
 
#88,889
#88,889
lawgator1 said:
Have to agree with you there. Even a so-called "battlefield nuke" would earn the permanent wrath of every other country on Earth and Putin knows the World would unite against him and force him out of power, relegating all of Russia to decades of economic calamity which would cripple it forever.
Click to expand...

Dude... you were one of the first mouth breathers to go off about Putin and nukes
 
#88,890
#88,890
apevol said:
no matter how estranged we become from Russia we have infinitely more in common with them than the saudis
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Agree, but we have a whole lot in common with the Saudi oil and the stability of the world oil market.

Russia is learning to flex the oil card also against Europe.

As unpopular as it is, embracing alternatives to petroleum being so important to the world would be a good thing long-term for America. I'm not an EV fan and that's not what I mean. I mean that petroleum energy is a card nations use...... it's a card we've used to not quite openly justify but really justify our past actions around the world and having options for energy should be a priority. I'm not a "drilling more solves everything" believer. Having options besides oil would be smart.
 
#88,892
#88,892
Grand Vol said:
You've seen them plenty on here discussed before...

But since you asked, paragraph 17 I think

NATO - Official text: Brussels Summit Communiqué issued by NATO Heads of State and Government (2021), 14-Jun.-2021 https://share.google/EFxU1wRyxTSAzQx6D

Excuse the Wiki article, but all the relevant links are here as well:

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia https://share.google/IE0W7JHhKT3ogDMeH



I was referring more to the fact he banned political parties and jailed opponents that were pro Russia.
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1755632716938.png

Remind me, when after 2021 or at any time since, has Ukraine been given the MAP that is required for NATO membership?

I'd also point out, that this communique was written 7 years after Russia had already begun its invasion of Ukraine.
 
Last edited:
#88,893
#88,893
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
Agree, but we have a whole lot in common with the Saudi oil and the stability of the world oil market.

Russia is learning to flex the oil card also against Europe.

As unpopular as it is, embracing alternatives to petroleum being so important to the world would be a good thing long-term for America. I'm not an EV fan and that's not what I mean. I mean that petroleum energy is a card nations use...... it's a card we've used to not quite openly justify but really justify our past actions around the world and having options for energy should be a priority. I'm not a "drilling more solves everything" believer. Having options besides oil would be smart.
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The EU tried to pull a fast one on us hoping to align more closely with Putin for cheap oil despite warnings it would hurt them. They walked right into it.

A humbled Russia in partnership with the US as the guiding force of Europe would have maybe been a preferable alternative to Germany running the continent after two damned world wars trying to stop them from doing just that
 
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#88,895
#88,895
Grand Vol said:
You've seen them plenty on here discussed before...

But since you asked, paragraph 17 I think

NATO - Official text: Brussels Summit Communiqué issued by NATO Heads of State and Government (2021), 14-Jun.-2021 https://share.google/EFxU1wRyxTSAzQx6D

Excuse the Wiki article, but all the relevant links are here as well:

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia https://share.google/IE0W7JHhKT3ogDMeH



I was referring more to the fact he banned political parties and jailed opponents that were pro Russia.
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2021 was after Putin already had forces in Ukraine. this mess began back in 2013/2014.
 
#88,900
#88,900
BeardedVol said:
What does that have to do with Ukraine having a MAP or not?

They didn't have one in 2021, they didn't have one in 2022, and even to this day, they still don't have one.
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Why would we provide a MAP to a country currently at war?

If you missed that point, I can't help you.
 
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