War in Ukraine

#88,851
#88,851
LouderVol said:
it didn't happen in the security council because Russia would have just veto'd it, again. not because major nations don't think Russia is to blame for it.
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They wanted a vote on condemning Russia, of course it was going to be veto'd by Russia. Vetoes happen all the time, they could have vetoed that resolution. The US actually voted against their own resolution at the lower level, see tweet.
 
#88,852
#88,852
LouderVol said:
man you are full of it here.

what conflict popped up with Finland and Sweden joining NATO? "


Ukraine also hadn't made any new moves to join NATO before Putin invaded. He was already in Ukraine long before 2022. Putin invaded precisely because there was no movement to join NATO. Ukraine tried to join back in like 2007, Putin never invaded then. no new application had been made until Russia went for Kyiv.

what provocative moves did the US, EU, and NATO make to Russia via Ukraine pre 2013? opening up western markets and loans to Ukraine? how would invading Ukraine fix any of that?

who benefits, Putin for one does. you got to remember that Putin was getting more and more vocal pushback in the elections. he was having to silence more and more people, and at the outset of the war he was able to use martial law to crack down on anyone he didn't like.

and Russia is still just as powerful as the Soviets in the one place it matters, or at least close enough where the difference doesn't matter. nukes. the soviets conventional forces were never going to be enough to challenge NATO. its the same today.
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This. Ukraine has every right to choose to align with Russia or with NATO. If Putin wants to convince Ukraine to align with him, he should offer a favorable alliance and not the end of an artillery cannon.

The only "provocation" from Ukraine was being more friendly to the West than Putin.

Sorry, Vlad, it's no longer your region. You lost. Your system of obedience of smaller nations at the end of a tank barrel is over.

We shouldn't allow Putin's "military might will control the region" strategy to work. If he wants to offer Ukraine good economic reasons to align with Russia, let them consider it, but the days of little satellite nations fearing Russian tanks rolling in are...... and should remain...... over.
 
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#88,853
#88,853
n_huffhines said:
Sorry about your day, pal.

When I'm talking about Iran, I'm talking about why they have reason to want to arm themselves, not why they have reason to invade other countries. If Georgia wants to join NATO, and NATO wants Georgia, Russia doesn't have cause to do anything about it, except arm themselves for the fight that will never, ever come to them.
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It is what it is and if anyone ever tells you our medical field is filled with people that can count, tell them they're FOS. But I digress...

The question stands though. Does Russia deserve 100% of the blame for the 2022 conflict or do you agree other forces deserve some "blame" for it starting?
 
#88,854
#88,854
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
This. Ukraine has every right to choose to align with Russia or with NATO.
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Only if they win.

We shouldn't allow Putin's "military might will control the region" strategy to work. If he wants to offer Ukraine good economic reasons to align with Russia, let them consider it, but the days of little satellite nations fearing Russian tanks rolling in are...... and should remain...... over.
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You have a major disagreement with a few of the posters here, they were saying the Russians have no chance against the rest of Europe. They fight with washing machine parts and shovels.
 
#88,855
#88,855
Grand Vol said:
The point being is that if he's trying to put the Soviet Union back together as implied by the other poster, he's not exactly going about it the easy way.

You don't try restarting your "empire" by taking the largest country first that's going to draw the most international attention. Putin's not that dumb
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Ukraine isn't his first aggressive move. you even mentioned previous aggressions with Georgia. his maintaining troops in Transnistria was probably the first. Putin has used multiple frozen wars to maintain his control.

he was doing the same in Ukraine in 2014 with the "rebels" armed with modern Russia stuff, who just happened to all be Russian regulars on "vacation" under Russian military command, and given medals for their service to Russia.

Putin escalated his frozen war strategy because it wasn't working like he wanted in Ukraine. the "easy" way had failed. it wasn't working long before we gave Ukraine any lethal arms.
 
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#88,858
#88,858
LSU-SIU said:
They wanted a vote on condemning Russia, of course it was going to be veto'd by Russia. Vetoes happen all the time, they could have vetoed that resolution. The US actually voted against their own resolution at the lower level, see tweet.
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yeah they voted this thru because the lower level accusations here weren't going to get vetoed.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. the UN finally changed up what they were doing and got different results.
 
#88,859
#88,859
LouderVol said:
yeah they voted this thru because the lower level accusations here weren't going to get vetoed.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. the UN finally changed up what they were doing and got different results.
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The U.S. told them we need to get something passed, the Europeans dropped it instead going for a vote. The Europeans will do what Trump tells them, if he really wants them too i.e. sovereignty.

The Europeans technically haven't asked for a vote as far Russia being at fault.
 
#88,860
#88,860
Grand Vol said:
It is what it is and if anyone ever tells you our medical field is filled with people that can count, tell them they're FOS. But I digress...

The question stands though. Does Russia deserve 100% of the blame for the 2022 conflict or do you agree other forces deserve some "blame" for it starting?
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Russia is CALLING self determination by Ukraine provocation. Nations have the right to make economic alliances and protection treaty alliances as they see fit for their citizens. Ukraine didn't choose to align with Russia and given their resistance to invasion, still isn't comfortable with being a Russian satellite nation.

Putin lost BECAUSE Ukraine knows he'll merely invade any time he feels them falling from his grasp. That's not how the world works anymore. Russia cannot roll tanks or threaten to roll tanks like they did in the 50s and 60s to secure their interests.

Obama was a coward to allow it. Trump shouldn't be a coward and should tell Russia that it cannot bully nations as it once did. They lost. Their system failed.
 
#88,861
#88,861
evillawyer said:
When you really want to stick it to Russia you put sanctions on ... India.

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how do you think the Russian federation finances its war machine?

We aren't buying russian oil in bulk, any sanctions we levy against Russia have to be adhered to by other countries to work
 
#88,862
#88,862
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
Russia is CALLING self determination by Ukraine provocation. Nations have the right to make economic alliances and protection treaty alliances as they see fit for their citizens. Ukraine didn't choose to align with Russia and given their resistance to invasion,
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The Russians considered what was going on there a violation of the agreement soon after it was signed i.e. early 90s. Specific nations essentially gave up the right to impede with the country. Now, you can disagree with whether that happened but no the parties essentially gave up that right. But all of that is meaningless at this point.
 
#88,864
#88,864
LouderVol said:
man you are full of it here.

what conflict popped up with Finland and Sweden joining NATO? "
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And why did Sweden and Finland join anyway? Was Russia a threat to them?

LouderVol said:
Ukraine also hadn't made any new moves to join NATO before Putin invaded. He was already in Ukraine long before 2022. Putin invaded precisely because there was no movement to join NATO. Ukraine tried to join back in like 2007, Putin never invaded then. no new application had been made until Russia went for Kyiv.
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You mean other than a whole mess of western politicians taking about NATO membership for them?

LouderVol said:
what provocative moves did the US, EU, and NATO make to Russia via Ukraine pre 2013? opening up western markets and loans to Ukraine? how would invading Ukraine fix any of that?

who benefits, Putin for one does. you got to remember that Putin was getting more and more vocal pushback in the elections. he was having to silence more and more people, and at the outset of the war he was able to use martial law to crack down on anyone he didn't like.
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Funny, the same can be said of Zelensky

LouderVol said:
and Russia is still just as powerful as the Soviets in the one place it matters, or at least close enough where the difference doesn't matter. nukes. the soviets conventional forces were never going to be enough to challenge NATO. its the same today.
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No matter what Western media or some posters say on here, nukes were not and are not an option in Ukraine. Putin knows it, we know it, everyone knows it. You're smart enough to know it too.
 
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#88,865
#88,865
Grand Vol said:
It is what it is and if anyone ever tells you our medical field is filled with people that can count, tell them they're FOS. But I digress...

The question stands though. Does Russia deserve 100% of the blame for the 2022 conflict or do you agree other forces deserve some "blame" for it starting?
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I still don't understand what the blame is for?

If I'm not doing anything wrong or hurting anybody else, but my actions provoke a response, I'm not to blame at all. I can leave Norman minding my own business singing Rocky Top, get punched in the face, and accept that my singing provoked this, but I am not to blame at all because I did nothing wrong.
 
#88,870
#88,870
n_huffhines said:
I still don't understand what the blame is for?

If I'm not doing anything wrong or hurting anybody else, but my actions provoke a response, I'm not to blame at all. I can leave Norman minding my own business singing Rocky Top, get punched in the face, and accept that my singing provoked this, but I am not to blame at all because I did nothing wrong.
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I would have used UGA as an example instead of OU, but anyway.

The difference is, should you be singing Rocky Top in <insert opponents stadium here> knowing full well you could (and sometimes will) provoke a reaction? Especially if you start singing it right in the face of the fan that said they're going to have an issue with it?
 
#88,871
#88,871
Grand Vol said:
And why did Sweden and Finland join anyway? Was Russia a threat to them?
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The Russians fight with shovels and washing machine parts, and the United States is in the middle of a big pond. Exactly what enemies are there? This is what the U.S. military told Congress in 1998. Essentially, they were saying what is all these funds really for.
 
#88,872
#88,872
Grand Vol said:
Oh, the irony...
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I get that America overthrew plenty of countries in our day using CIA and supporting bad actors. I realize we are not perfect nor have we ever been perfect toward the world.

But communism and the Soviet states alliances FAILED. It's not in the interest of the United States to allow Russia to restart that kind of behavior. There is ZERO reason to justify Russia's invasion EXCEPT that Putin wants control of that land. Putin WANTS the old Russian system of capitulation at the end of a tank to be true again.

Ukraine isn't interested in that. The Ukrainian people have a right to autonomy. Yes or no?
 
#88,873
#88,873
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
I get that America overthrew plenty of countries in our day using CIA and supporting bad actors. I realize we are not perfect nor have we ever been perfect toward the world.

But communism and the Soviet states alliances FAILED. It's not in the interest of the United States to allow Russia to restart that kind of behavior. There is ZERO reason to justify Russia's invasion EXCEPT that Putin wants control of that land. Putin WANTS the old Russian system of capitulation at the end of a tank to be true again.

Ukraine isn't interested in that. The Ukrainian people have a right to autonomy. Yes or no?
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not to butt in but rights aren't magic.

if you believe in God, you likely believe they are given by God.

If you don't, you likely believe they're a construct crafted by collective morality.

either way, rights don't mean anything if you can't claim them. The majority of this world's population don't believe in modern Western values
 
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#88,874
#88,874
evillawyer said:
When you really want to stick it to Russia you put sanctions on ... India.

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While what she says was stupid (it’s what she does ) pushing India to purchase petroleum products from elsewhere instead of Russia is a good thing for the war financing effort. And as @hog88 pointed out earlier today Trump should apply equal pressure on the EU countries to do the same.

Now if these sanctions she’s referring to aren’t related to Russian oil then that’s likely moronic. But I do remember reading yesterday Trump was pressuring Modi to purchase oil elsewhere.
 
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#88,875
#88,875
apevol said:
not to butt in but rights aren't magic.

if you believe in God, you likely believe they are given by God.

If you don't, you likely believe they're a construct crafted by collective morality.

either way, rights don't mean anything if you can't claim them. The majority of this world's population don't believe in modern Western values
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I agree that the world runs, underneath the niceness, on violence. FAFO is really the basis for all animals and humans are really animals with overrated brains.

As it was explained me long ago by a forgotten professor at UT: morality is rotary adjustable for everyone.

I'm American. I believe America should act in the interests of America. In this situation, what makes Putin and Russia weaker is good for my family's safety. That's my morality on this.
 
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