Israel vs Palestinians

#35,301
#35,301
Smokey123 said:
Killing thousands of children isn’t self defense. Hamas opposed Arafat when he changed his policies on Israel, Israel supported Hamas to have a strong opposition to the PA/PLO. So not sure what youre going for with bringing him up
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Easy to say when you don't aren't attacking someone and using 'children' - civilians - as strategic shields. I think the evidence points to Israel taking pains - perhaps as no other in military history - to avoid them. Like the hospital IDF allegedly bombed and the outrage, but then turned out to have been Hamas munitions that caused the blast. If your own government can't avoid blowing you up, I'm not sure what bar you set for the opposing military. Especially when they distribute evacuation notices, provide non-combatant passages to soft zones, and food and supplies.

I'm going for the Pal-Arabs have been jerked about for decades for something that isn't going to happen; an Israel without Israelis and named Palestine. I'm not sure that Arafat ever bought into 2-states and was doing more than jerking the West around. I doubt he would have survived a week if he'd ever signed such an agreement. I think 2-state is a fantasy that guarantees perpetual Oct 7 events. I'd like to think another form of coexistence within Israel is feasible, but would bet large $ against it.
 
#35,304
#35,304
KB5252 said:
I disagree, the rates of death have fallen sharply as Hamas targets have decreased have they not? It looks to me the goal has always been to target Hamas.

And it's been said from the beginning they were bombing indiscriminately and that funding and cooperation didn't dry up. It seems to me you're either agreeing that they weren't bombing indiscriminately or you were completely wrong about the sponsors funding and support drying up......... According to your scenario you can't have it both ways, they are directly contradicting.........so Which is it?
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Hasn't the IDF changed tacks, going from mainly bombardment to inserting more troops?
Blowing up an occupied apartment block to kill one person is quite indiscriminate, no? And sometimes that one person wasn't there but the block got bombed anyway.
Bombing indiscriminately isn't an effective way to kill everyone in an area. So that assumption is off.
 
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#35,305
#35,305
ButchPlz said:
Evangelical megachurches that preach prosperity gospel certainly are "growing", in that they have large crowds and lots of member turnover once people are not spiritually fulfilled. The average evangelical church is absolutely not growing nationwide- if anything, membership is stagnant, with only certain charismatic churches growing. You're right- more conservative, traditional churches are finding serious, sustainable growth and success; this does not include churhces that preach a century-old Biblical interpretation created by a Scotsman in the late 1800s and foisted on America by a man with a literal lifetime of theft and fraud (which, I suppose, is par for the course for the average moneygrubbing American pastor). PS: 70% of American churches have less than 100 members, and average well below that in regular attendance.

Regarding the verse- I'll let Matthew Henry (1 Thessalonians 4 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)) and Albert Barnes (1 Thessalonians 4 Barnes' Notes), who are much smarter than you, demonstrate how the church thought about those passages before Darby's creative re-interpretation. Have you spent any time at all actually studying this, or did old Pastor Jimmy Joe's insistence that it's correct do it for you? Brainlessly adhering to a bizarre interpretation of a single line of scripture that originated from a fringe movement in the 1800s essentially makes you the equivalent of a Mormon, which is hilarious. God explicitly tells you you have a mind that you are supposed to use to love Him, no?
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Believe me that I have spent countless hours studying church history and church doctrine.
And yes, I became a follower of Christ in a small country Bible Thumping Church; being taught much sound doctrine and also being taught things like Catholics can’t be Christians and the Pope is the Antichrist, a literal 7 24 hour day creation, and that you had to pray a very specific prayer to be “saved”.
But every denomination in the world teaches at least one thing that is wildly off base.
But theougj the years as I studied first the Protestant Reformation and then the early church Fathers like Polcarp, Origin, and Augustine, I became aware of the huge breadth and richness of the different facets of Christ that each tradition exposed. And I am more humble than I have ever been in accepting that my knowledge of Christ is just as incomplete as the “heretics” I used to criticize.
And yes, Christians disagree wildly about the timing and manner of Christ’s return and I cannot be certain of my interpretation of a pre tribulation rapture. But it seems to fit the scriptures to my satisfaction.
But I think all Christians can and should agree that however and whenever He chooses to do it; Christ is physically returning for his Brde. He promised me that he was going away to make a place for me and would come back to take me to be with Him forever. And the Angels at the ascension said that this same Jesus would return in the same manner as He departed. So I make the best reading I can and wait patiently.
And I remind myself frequently that the Religious leaders during Christs first coming were so certain that they understood everything and had all the answers that they missed the very One that had been waiting for even as he stood physically in front of them. I realize I can make the very same mistake if I do not keep an open mind and heart.
 
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#35,307
#35,307
EasternVol said:
Hasn't the IDF changed tacks, going from mainly bombardment to inserting more troops?
Blowing up an occupied apartment block to kill one person is quite indiscriminate, no? And sometimes that one person wasn't there but the block got bombed anyway.
Bombing indiscriminately isn't an effective way to kill everyone in an area. So that assumption is off.
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Thank you for your offer to go in yourself and clear buildings physically one by one.
And IDF representative will be contacting you shortly to discuss your induction and transport
 
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#35,308
#35,308
OrangeTsar said:
Believe me that I have spent countless hours studying church history and church doctrine.
And yes, I became a follower of Christ in a small country Bible Thumping Church; being taught much sound doctrine and also being taught things like Catholics can’t be Christians and the Pope is the Antichrist, a literal 7 24 hour day creation, and that you had to pray a very specific prayer to be “saved”.
But every denomination in the world teaches at least one thing that is wildly off base.
But theougj the years as I studied first the Protestant Reformation and then the early church Fathers like Polcarp, Origin, and Augustine, I became aware of the huge breadth and richness of the different facets of Christ that each tradition exposed. And I am more humble than I have ever been in accepting that my knowledge of Christ is just as incomplete as the “heretics” I used to criticize.
And yes, Christians disagree wildly about the timing and manner of Christ’s return and I cannot be certain of my interpretation of a pre tribulation rapture. But it seems to fit the scriptures to my satisfaction.
But I think all Christians can and should agree that however and whenever He chooses to do it; Christ is physically returning for his Brde. He promised me that he was going away to make a place for me and would come back to take me to be with Him forever. And the Angles at the ascension said that this same Jesus would return in the same manner as He departed. So I make the best reading I can and wait patiently.
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What does any of what you posted have to do with dispensational eschatology, which is where this insane idea of a "rapture" came from?
 
#35,309
#35,309
EasternVol said:
Hasn't the IDF changed tacks, going from mainly bombardment to inserting more troops?
Blowing up an occupied apartment block to kill one person is quite indiscriminate, no? And sometimes that one person wasn't there but the block got bombed anyway.
Bombing indiscriminately isn't an effective way to kill everyone in an area. So that assumption is off.
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Blame Hamas
They are the reason Israel is in Gaza going through every booby trapped building and a 300 km tunnel system under the city.
Hamas knew exactly what they were doing when they started this war and they don’t care about their own people.

Israel cares about their people and want them back.



 
#35,311
#35,311
EasternVol said:
Israel and their supporters complaining about popaganda is rich. Yes both sides lie.
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"By way of deception, thou shalt make war."

EDIT: it's also hard to take advice on discerning propaganda from a dude that went full hard-on for vaccinating against COVID and was one of few here that told us the unvaccinated were killing people and were going to (or should) die.
 
#35,312
#35,312
EasternVol said:
The IDF? All those destroyed apartments, schools, places of worship, hospitals, stadiums, etc.
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First Israeli attack was on a Baptist hospital. First footage of Israeli "tunnel" invasions and "dead Jewish babies" were a doctored photo of a Scandinavian oilfield maintenance tunnel and an AI-generated image, respectively, and both posted by the IDF first.
 
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#35,318
#35,318
ButchPlz said:
What does any of what you posted have to do with dispensational eschatology, which is where this insane idea of a "rapture" came from?
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It has everything to do with it. You cannot be any more certain that “dispensational eschatology” is incorrect and more than I can be that it is?
We can argue over the relative strengths of literal versus symbolic interpretations of prophecy and the end times. But there seems to be a very possible reading that indicates a restored physical Jewish Nation, a final conflict centered around that nation and an Ultimate Victory that sees Christ becoming Lord of Lords and ruling all Creation.

My bottom line in all disagreements over doctrine always goes back to the Nicene Creed. Anything that doesn’t disagree with that is disputable territory that doesn’t invalidate anyone’s faith.
And that says he is returning to judge the quick and the dead. I do not make any claim beyond that as being anything but my PERSONAL opinion. If you interpret things otherwise, then Grace and Oeace to you my brother. Now let’s just worship Christ in humility and joy and wait patiently until His return; whenever and however that occurs.
 
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#35,321
#35,321
NCFisher said:
Easy to say when you don't aren't attacking someone and using 'children' - civilians - as strategic shields. I think the evidence points to Israel taking pains - perhaps as no other in military history - to avoid them. Like the hospital IDF allegedly bombed and the outrage, but then turned out to have been Hamas munitions that caused the blast. If your own government can't avoid blowing you up, I'm not sure what bar you set for the opposing military. Especially when they distribute evacuation notices, provide non-combatant passages to soft zones, and food and supplies.

I'm going for the Pal-Arabs have been jerked about for decades for something that isn't going to happen; an Israel without Israelis and named Palestine. I'm not sure that Arafat ever bought into 2-states and was doing more than jerking the West around. I doubt he would have survived a week if he'd ever signed such an agreement. I think 2-state is a fantasy that guarantees perpetual Oct 7 events. I'd like to think another form of coexistence within Israel is feasible, but would bet large $ against it.
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Destroying 95% of buildings isn’t avoiding them, hitting a refugee camp isn’t avoiding them, hitting 5 kids as they were gathering water isn’t avoiding them. Hamas’ being an evil vile group doesn’t automatically justify everything Israel does, they are and should be held to a much higher standard.


You are right that Palestinians have been jerked around and used as pawns
 
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