Team talent

[VOLINVONORE]

Going into year 5, that's not a compliment anymore. Part of being a great head coach is great recruiting and this is the biggest glaring weakness that I see for Huepel and his staff. Second would be his teams play poorly disciplined.

The offense does get a lot of penalties, but they usually overcome them and Win 9-11 games a year.

 

[sami]

Butch recruited some great talent, but had no idea how to manage / coach it.

And perhaps more importantly, he didn't have a clue how to develop the talent he recruited. As others have said, Butch had a couple of teams that were playoff level talent-wise, but his inability to maximize that talent and his hideous game day coaching led to records that looked decent on paper but were abject failures given what he had to work with.

 

[Sarms58]

Talent on paper wasn’t an issue with Butch Jones for much of his time here. His problem was winning 7-9 games with the talent to win 11 games. Jones also had a talent retention issue in the days before the transfer portal was existed. We should’ve been a playoff team with the talent Jones had in 2015 and 2016.

Yes this is a more talented team than some of the squads Pruitt put out there.

True…Butch lost kids before they ever got on campus…he had a horrible retention rate.

 

[Sarms58]

Butch recruited some great talent, but had no idea how to manage / coach it.

Take a screen shot of the starting lineup vs Syracuse and five years from now you will see quite a few of these guys in the NFL.

Alvin Kamara was getting about 5 touches per game before Hurd quit…that’s sums up Butch’s ability to recognize and utilize talent.

 

[VAVol85]

I don’t get the Jones as a great recruiter thesis. He had two good years and then was exposed as a snake oil salesman and dropped.

Jones also didn’t put together complete teams - he recruited a collection of highly ranked players but was always missing critical pieces. He got a great RB but an undersized line to block for him. To me, a great recruiter starts with a plan for a successful team and then recruits to the plan.

It would be nice if Heupel recruited better. But claiming Jones did a better job assembling teams is pretty narrow minded IMHO.

 

[VOLINVONORE]

Excuses, excuses.

Facts are truths, not excuses.

 

[ALLVOL 4LIFE]

Butch didn't fight for upper tier talent? He has the highest ranked recruiting classes of all coaches since Fulmer.

What he would do is LIE to them and promise them things to get them on campus and then totally mismanage them and the team. not to mention some of those top tier talent guys have a real prima donna attitude if you aren't a good coach and know how to manage them.

Butch will never survive in the era of NIL and the portal when a player can bolt as soon as they smell the BS coming off of Jones.

You even said it yourself. He did have high ranked classes due to being that star gazer. And the real reason his rankings were so high was due to players that wanted to be a Vol. Instate players that ranked high really helped his number.

Tell me how many BIG time recruits did he beat out Saban for? Or Richt/Smart? Or Muschamp/McElwain?
If a player didn’t want to be here, he did not win a fight for them from other schools.

Also, if he is such this high ranking recruiter, what has he done since leaving here? How does he rank in recruiting? Spoiler ranked: 90, 78, 67, & 113 last 4 years.

 

[B81]

Rivals has a team composite as well. I believe the numbers by years are...

Team	Composite Ranking
'09 - Kiffin	8
'10 - Dooley	9
'11 - Dooley	13
'12 - Dooley	17
'13 - Jones	23
'14 - Jones	6
'15 - Jones	4
'16 - Jones	13
'17 - Jones	17
'18 - Pruitt	22
'19 - Pruitt	13
'20 - Pruitt	10
'21 - Heupel	26
'22 - Heupel	15
'23 - Heupel	11
'24 - Heupel	16

The numbers seem to support the general thread opinions:

-Heupel is recruiting on par with most others (minus the stellar two years with Jones)
-Heupel is able to squeeze a lot more out of the same talent
-Jones squandered what talent he had. And they made him look better than he was

Is Rivals a composite recruiting class ranking by year, or a talent composite of the roster?

 

[VolInDayton]

I think looking at the draft heupel is doing a better job. I think next year will be better than this year

 

[Godfatha]

Butch recruited some great talent, but had no idea how to manage / coach it.

Take a screen shot of the starting lineup vs Syracuse and five years from now you will see quite a few of these guys in the NFL.

Butch also benefitted from some legacy players.

 

[vavolfan6]

From a High School recruiting perspective, We've recruited better QBs and DL talent. We haven't recruited as well on the OL, LBS, or DB,s. The transfer portal has been more successful in filling the gaps, which wasn't a tool previous coaches were able to utilize.

We are still slightly dealing with the repurcussions of not being able to recruit a ful class in the years directly after Pruitt. The impact being that we don't have many homegrown upperclassman.

So overall. we have a top 15 roster talent wise and are trending toward sustaining a top 10. This is about where we've been when at the peak of those previous coaches in their best seasons. The difference is that Heupel is starting to sustain top classes becuase he actually wins and is consistently sending guys in the league. But it's harder than ever to really stand head and shoulders above the rest of college FB since mid-tier P4 schools are loading up on proven upperclassman talent from G5 schools and the playing field is more level than it has ever been.

 

[Smokymtnbullet]

Remember when Cornbread kept trotting a certain QB out there because he “ gave us the best chance to win” .That’s all I need to know.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Rivals has a team composite as well. I believe the numbers by years are...

Team	Composite Ranking
'09 - Kiffin	8
'10 - Dooley	9
'11 - Dooley	13
'12 - Dooley	17
'13 - Jones	23
'14 - Jones	6
'15 - Jones	4
'16 - Jones	13
'17 - Jones	17
'18 - Pruitt	22
'19 - Pruitt	13
'20 - Pruitt	10
'21 - Heupel	26
'22 - Heupel	15
'23 - Heupel	11
'24 - Heupel	16

The numbers seem to support the general thread opinions:

-Heupel is recruiting on par with most others (minus the stellar two years with Jones)
-Heupel is able to squeeze a lot more out of the same talent
-Jones squandered what talent he had. And they made him look better than he was

IMO, for a program like ours, with the resources we have, not cracking the top 10 consistently in recruiting is inexcusable. And if we can't get it all done with high school recruiting, we damn sure need to be acting with a greater sense of urgency in the portal. It'd be one thing if we were outside the top 10 but Huepel was killing it in the portal, like Ole Miss does, but we seem to struggle with both. I do give Huepel and his staff credit for a lot of things, but their recruiting ain't pulling the truck up the hill. Not if we seriously want to compete for championships. Otherwise we're just going to be the perennial 8-10 win team who watches Texas, Georgia, or Alabama win the SEC every year and either goes to a meaningless bowl game or gets bounced from the playoffs in the early rounds. We are the "Iowa" of the SEC now. High class mediocrity. I guess that's just who we are.

 

[KTrain]

Question to everyone on the forum. Looking at this team's overall talent, do you think Huepel and his staff have significantly elevated our overall team talent above what it was under Butch Jones or Jeremy Pruitt? Now, I'm not talking about where it was after we lost all those players in the portal when Huep took the job. I'm talking about the team's talent overall under Butch and overall under Pruitt. Has our current staff recruited significantly better than the previous 2 staffs?

With the portal and NIL this? is not even valid it's like asking if these players can run a 50-yard dash faster than players from yester year can run a 40-yard dash. The bar has been raised so much this is a hopeless comparison. IMO

 

[Brave Volunteer]

With the portal and NIL this? is not even valid it's like asking if these players can run a 50-yard dash faster than players from yester year can run a 40-yard dash. The bar has been raised so much this is a hopeless comparison. IMO

No, its not. It's a simple yes or no question. Has the current staff significantly elevated this team's overall talent above what it was under the previous two staffs, yes or no? But some of you want to treat it like it's an advanced calculus equation. Either we are a more talented team today than we were at any time under Pruitt or Jones, or we're not.

 

[KTrain]

No, its not. It's a simple yes or no question. Has the current staff significantly elevated this team's overall talent above what it was under the previous two staffs, yes or no? But some of you want to treat it like it's an advanced calculus equation. Either we are a more talented team today than we were at any time under Pruitt or Jones, or we're not.

Tell me when the collective and staff (Pruitt's or Butch) had to get together and discuss whether a holdout is threating transferring since he can instantly play for another team without sitting out and wants more $$$, and its dominoes throughout the team. Yes, it is advanced that's why Saban got out, some can bury their head in the sand and say football hasn't changed a bit same as it ever was but I digress.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Tell me when the collective and staff (Pruitt's or Butch) had to get together and discuss whether a holdout is threating transferring since he can instantly play for another team without sitting out and wants more $$$, and its dominoes throughout the team. Yes, it is advanced that's why Saban got out, some can bury their head in the sand and say football hasn't changed a bit same as it ever was but I digress.

Omg, you guys are killing me! I didn't say recruiting isn't complex! I didnt say it hasnt changed! I said my question isn't complex! It's literally yes or no!

 

[KTrain]

Omg, you guys are killing me! I didn't say recruiting isn't complex! I said my question isn't complex! It's literally yes or no!

You asked a question that is comparing totally different situation it isn't complex to understand that. It's just it should not be asked it's got too many variables that did not exist equally. There is nothing to glean from any answer, it's pointless.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

You asked a question that is comparing totally different situation it isn't complex to understand that. It's just it should not be asked it's got too many variables that did not exist equally. There is nothing to glean from any answer, it's pointless.

No, some of you guys are just dodging the question and I know why. Its because instead of simply acknowledging the truth, everyone is trying to come up with caveats as to the WHY. I didn't ask why. I simply asked if it is or it isn't! And yes, the recruiting landscape has changed for everybody, not just us! These challenges are not unique to UT. That's not a good excuse. Alabama recruited well pre NIL/transfer portal and they're recruiting well now. Ohio State recruited well pre NIL/transfer portal and they're recruiting well now. Georgia recruited well pre NIL/transfer portal and they're recruiting well now. Etc, etc, etc. So let's stop pretending like the changes in recruiting somehow serve as an inescapable prohibitive just for us! That's ********.

The truth is this staff has a deficiency in the area of recruiting that is putting a limit on our ceiling for success. I don't care about the why. I care about what we're doing to fix it!

 

[KTrain]

No, some of you guys are just dodging the question and I know why. Its because instead of simply acknowledging the truth, everyone is trying to come up with caveats as to the WHY. I didn't ask why. I simply asked if it is or it isn't! And yes, the recruiting landscape has changed for everybody, not just us! These challenges are not unique to UT. That's not a good excuse. Alabama recruited well pre NIL/transfer portal and they're recruiting well now. Ohio State recruited well pre NIL/transfer portal and they're recruiting well now. Georgia recruited well pre NIL/transfer portal and they're recruiting well now. Etc, etc, etc. So let's stop pretending like the changes in recruiting somehow serve as an inescapable prohibitive just for us! That's ********.

The truth is this staff has a deficiency in the area of recruiting that is putting a limit on our ceiling for success. I don't care about the why. I care about what we're doing to fix it!

Pointless and there is no answer that will satisfy you. The landscape was advantage to the ppl that had no morals about paying under the table, that's why Saban got out. He had perfected the free cars etc.. mommas house sitting for rich donors to be in the city to support sons a working donation wink wink. Pruitt a kindergarten teacher/babysitter was just too dumb to pull it off here or if he'd won the admin may have looked the other way. Unless someone says Pruitt was a great recruiter when he was bringing bags of $$$ when just a few others were cheating to that extent. Then you'll say see we let our best guy go remember when he brought in JG and stuck with him through thick and thin and remember the good ole days of 3 wins.

 

[SpookyAction]

Rivals has a team composite as well. I believe the numbers by years are...

Team	Composite Ranking
'09 - Kiffin	8
'10 - Dooley	9
'11 - Dooley	13
'12 - Dooley	17
'13 - Jones	23
'14 - Jones	6
'15 - Jones	4
'16 - Jones	13
'17 - Jones	17
'18 - Pruitt	22
'19 - Pruitt	13
'20 - Pruitt	10
'21 - Heupel	26
'22 - Heupel	15
'23 - Heupel	11
'24 - Heupel	16

The numbers seem to support the general thread opinions:

-Heupel is recruiting on par with most others (minus the stellar two years with Jones)
-Heupel is able to squeeze a lot more out of the same talent
-Jones squandered what talent he had. And they made him look better than he was

The tail of the tape is Dooley and Butch recruited well enough to build winning rosters, if more of that talent was on the O- and D-Lines. The linemen Butch chased were under-sized. I remember wondering where were the DTs. Dooley just didn't get enough linemen.

 

[Volheaven50]

Based on the 247 talent composite, which comes out every year, the answer is, not significantly. He is however MUCH, MUCH better at getting players to play up to and above their talent level.

2024 College Football Team Talent Composite

In order to create the most comprehensive Team Recruiting Ranking without any notion of bias, 247Sports Team Recruiting Ranking is solely based on the 247Sports Composite Rating.

247sports.com

Same 5 or 6 teams at the top every year but the Portal has also entered the picture as a 2nd means of recruiting

 

[unfrozencvmanvol]

Same 5 or 6 teams at the top every year but the Portal has also entered the picture as a 2nd means of recruiting

The team talent composite takes into account all portal additions and subtractions. It comes out about 2 days before kickoff typically.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

The team talent composite takes into account all portal additions and subtractions. It comes out about 2 days before kickoff typically.

Yep. And us currently sitting at 17th is embarrassing. Our staff is not getting it done on the recruiting trail, plain and simple!

 

[B81]

Yep. And us currently sitting at 17th is embarrassing. Our staff is not getting it done on the recruiting trail, plain and simple!

We also had sanctions due to Coach Cornbread until last year. This is a building process. We are moving in the right direction.