Trade Wars and Tariffs

#876
#876
hog88 said:
I would be one of those. Most are not needed in this day and age.
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I miss the the good old days of paying 14 year olds in scrip for their 10 hour workdays underground, strip mining without having to reclaim the land, and stinking flammable rivers devoid of life. While there are too many onerous regulations, a whole lot of them benefit society.
 
#878
#878
CobbVol said:
I tariff you 10% and you tariff me 10% would be what I considered fair. Free would be 0% and 0% for both of us.
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Don't forget subsidies, most of China's international business is subsidized in some fashion by the Chinese people.
 
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#879
#879
EasternVol said:
I miss the the good old days of paying 14 year olds in scrip for their 10 hour workdays underground, strip mining without having to reclaim the land, and stinking flammable rivers devoid of life. While there are too many onerous regulations, a whole lot of them benefit society.
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Ahh, nice strawman. Please inform us where in this country a company could get away with that today? With social media and the fact almost everyone has a phone no company could survive acting like that. Plus, believe it or not most business leader want to be good actors.
 
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#880
#880
LouderVol said:
I think the issue with this argument is its difficult/impossible to prove one way or the other. Not enough information is known on either side to make actual conclusions. there are certainly some cases where it does improve the lot of the workers. there are also certainly cases where it hurts the lot of the workers. and if you are only looking at the workers its easy to miss the collateral damage done.

at best its a case of gentrification, and at worst its the modern equivalent of indentured servitude.

but even at the best it has some draw backs. removing workers from the local economy to a factory that is for export only, means there is less work force in the area. less local work in most of these countries means less food production, and smaller cottage industries that the community relies on. So you have cut supply, while also increasing the amount of money available on the demand side. that disrupts local economies.

a lot of the "benefits" aren't nearly as universal as we would like to assume. Great example is all the work China does to improve a nation's economy, they are adding 500km of road, 200km of rails, a new international airport, and sea port. What they don't tell you is that no local roads connect to that new network, and actually local road use now takes longer because the new highway cut the existing local roads. the rail only runs from the port to factory, the airport only goes back to one city in China, and only Chinese ships can use the port. Its similar with any of these factories. "There wasn't electricity in the area before but we have built a new power plant...that only serves the factory. and the waste from that plant kills off 1/4 of the local food production while damaging local water supplies even more"
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Are these not the same set of decisions American farmers had to make in choosing to go to work for factories during the industrial age?

Would you force someone to stay in the fields if that person can make more (or simply wants) to work in a factory?
 
#881
#881
EasternVol said:
I miss the the good old days of paying 14 year olds in scrip for their 10 hour workdays underground, strip mining without having to reclaim the land, and stinking flammable rivers devoid of life. While there are too many onerous regulations, a whole lot of them benefit society.
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Some of the best fun I had was riding dirt bikes in the Kentucky strip mines as a kid.

Those places were nasty. I can’t believe our parents let us go there.
 
#888
#888
hog88 said:
Don't forget subsidies, most of China's international business is subsidized in some fashion by the Chinese people.
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Agreed. Here is another difference we have here versus most of the world ...

www.heritage.org

How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love This Tariff-Like System

I believe two things that may seem contradictory. First, I believe in generally free trade. Americans are better off when they can buy and sell products from friendly nations without tariffs and other trade barriers. Second, I believe that Congress should tax products imported into the United...
www.heritage.org www.heritage.org
 
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#890
#890
SpaceCoastVol said:
Yeah but those pesky jobs that get created
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They would, if anyone could afford to buy it at that point, which is doubtful.

We benefit as consumers from the cheap labor overseas. Tarrifs remove that benefit, no matter how you slice it. The issue isn't Trump's motivation, or the recognition that we are at a disadvantage in costs of goods delivered. It's that he doesn't accept that it's OK as is.
 
#891
#891
McDad said:
Are these not the same set of decisions American farmers had to make in choosing to go to work for factories during the industrial age?

Would you force someone to stay in the fields if that person can make more (or simply wants) to work in a factory?
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those farmers leaving the fields lead to a lot of the subsidies we see today. so I don't think its a great example to emulate.

but largely (imo) it isn't the same, there was some split of what work was staying domestic vs what was going out for export during the industrial age. and by and large most of those would still have been american/local companies. so the production of the work had the chance to stay local. think back to everything having the "made in america" sticker.

Instead of the "brain drain" effect, think of it as a "results of production drain" facing these 3rd world nations. its a way to export labor without physically exporting the labor. they still have money, but they don't have the production to show for it. if everything was equal, it would be fine, but this is a developing nation, they need stuff just as much as they need money especially if the argument is some improvement to the quality of life.

if they have exported the fruits of their labor, they are just going to have to import something to replace it. that import is going to be more expensive than the past local option. so you could conceivably have a place of just inflation. the people have more money, but everything costs more, so its not a net gain. Is it really an improvement if they went from spending 10k a year on 1300 calories a day to spending 15k a year on 1300 calories a day?
 
#892
#892
Orangeslice13 said:
I thought we were not doing the all pilots are drunks thing.
No, in many cases those people are not given a choice. But I believe you knew that already
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Actually, I don't know. There is no way I could account for every country or every region's labor dynamics.

I certainly do not want forced labor (from government or other leaders) to the supply of our goods.

But on the other hand, I don't want our standards to be applied in places where the shoe doesn't fit. It is unrealistic and potentially harmful to those needing employment in the poor areas.
 
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#893
#893
Orangeslice13 said:
That would not be the choice of the United States. (Mexican employers are American too) that would be at the discretion of the business wanting to do business there. If it made financial sense then they would upgrade. If not then they would not.
That’s how the system should work
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I am confused. We are discussing one country putting an expectation of another wrt employment. Are you saying here it isn't a country putting the expectation on the other country but the businesses inside of that country???
 
#894
#894
LouderVol said:
those farmers leaving the fields lead to a lot of the subsidies we see today. so I don't think its a great example to emulate.

but largely (imo) it isn't the same, there was some split of what work was staying domestic vs what was going out for export during the industrial age. and by and large most of those would still have been american/local companies. so the production of the work had the chance to stay local. think back to everything having the "made in america" sticker.

Instead of the "brain drain" effect, think of it as a "results of production drain" facing these 3rd world nations. its a way to export labor without physically exporting the labor. they still have money, but they don't have the production to show for it. if everything was equal, it would be fine, but this is a developing nation, they need stuff just as much as they need money especially if the argument is some improvement to the quality of life.

if they have exported the fruits of their labor, they are just going to have to import something to replace it. that import is going to be more expensive than the past local option. so you could conceivably have a place of just inflation. the people have more money, but everything costs more, so its not a net gain. Is it really an improvement if they went from spending 10k a year on 1300 calories a day to spending 15k a year on 1300 calories a day?
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Does this mean you would force a laborer to remain in the fields even if they wanted to go to work in a factory?
 
#895
#895
Perhaps my discussion about labor outside the US is more talking past each other than talking with each other. If so, this might clarify.

I am not looking at foreign labor as a moral issue. Is there a moral component? Yes. I am looking at it from an economic perspective. KInd of a "what is best for me given the limited options I have". I think the person who is best equipped to make those decisions are the people themselves.
I live in a poor county in Tennessee. Lot's of agriculture and forestry. If i feel like it is in my best interests to work retail at Walmart instead of in forestry, why should anybody stand in my way? Even in restricted societies and countries, if the individual has options for work, who are we to say they shouldn't do one type of work over another?
 
#896
#896
Orangeslice13 said:
I just want a level playing field.

For example. VW decided to build in Chattanooga and manufacture here because it was cheaper to do so.
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Can tariffs between states be that far off? It is theoretically unconstitutional but one can easily imagine a MAGA governor deciding there's a loophole and instituting tariffs on imports from California, aligning himself with Trump-onomics.
 
#897
#897
lawgator1 said:
Can tariffs between states be that far off? It is theoretically unconstitutional but one can easily imagine a MAGA governor deciding there's a loophole and instituting tariffs on imports from California, aligning himself with Trump-onomics.
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GTFOH with this crap. Tariffs between states is specifically prohibited by the constitution.
 
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#900
#900
lawgator1 said:
Can tariffs between states be that far off? It is theoretically unconstitutional but one can easily imagine a MAGA governor deciding there's a loophole and instituting tariffs on imports from California, aligning himself with Trump-onomics.
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Theoretically? It's specifically prohibited by the constitution
 
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