War in Ukraine

[LSU-SIU]

No I presume that this has been a long time coming. Ukraine has to fight because they didn't reject us influence into all their affairs.

There is no winning for the Ukraine. Once Russia invaded in 2022 and took the East it was about how much the Ukrainians would lose. There really is no strategy other than to let them fight until there are no more Ukrainians.
The Ukraine could have rejected us after 2014 but it obviously went the other way with the Bidens. Georgia appears to have possibly figured this out with ejecting the corrupt out, that might not be enough.

There are no good options that I see for the Ukraine. The best option (if possible) is to negotiate before you lose more, meaning coming to the table is most likely better today than tomorrow. Once they run out of meat, there won't be anything to negotiate, even unconditional surrender might not do it. I would push all all those FAB catchers right into Poland.

There is no win for the Ukraine, never was.

 

[LouderVol]

The point is this has all the markings of a PNAC plan. It's all the exact same people pulling the same strings they designed in the 90s

and they somehow got the Russians to do their part. amazing how good our shadow government is, even has our enemies doing exactly what they planned.

 

[LouderVol]

No I presume that this has been a long time coming. Ukraine has to fight because they didn't reject us influence into all their affairs.

yeah, the Russians would only ever eff around and kill Ukrainians because the US get involved....

Russia has been killing Ukrainians for longer than we have been a country.

 

[utvolpj]

and they somehow got the Russians to do their part. amazing how good our shadow government is, even has our enemies doing exactly what they planned.

We knew what it would take. We were literally told by their leader where the red line was. We just had to get a Ukranian govt to go along with it. Their rep for corruption was earned

 

[LouderVol]

We knew what it would take. We were literally told by their leader where the red line was. We just had to get a Ukranian govt to go along with it. Their rep for corruption was earned

you mean the SOVIET leader? Careful Ras and LSU will jump all over you and tell you that Russia has nothing to do with the Soviets.

and by that line you mean the Budapest Memorandum line where neither side was supposed to cross into Ukraine?
or do you mean the no NATO nations on Russias border, like Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, or now Finland?

Ukraine was no closer to joining NATO, crossing this imaginary line, in 2014 than they were in 2008. there was no justification for the invasion. Heck, even after 2014 Ukraine was rejected from NATO. There was no new 2022 measure with lots of support to have Ukraine join NATO that would have crossed this fictional line.

and by a Ukrainian government you mean the guy who shot up his own people, and then fled INTO Russia where he lives in a mansion now? what never gets mentioned is that the Russians swore up and down he was an American plant, running on pro-western causes. then after he kills a few Ukrainians, reneges on his deal with the west, they for some reason set him up for a life of cushy retirement. hardly seems like something they would do for an American plant.

 

[LSU-SIU]

you mean the SOVIET leader? Careful Ras and LSU will jump all over you and tell you that Russia has nothing to do with the Soviets.

The Russians have been warning the United States for over 25 years, its in the Congressional Record that has already been posted. It has nothing to do with the Soviet Union. Putin was moonlighting as a taxi cab driver. At the end of the day, the United States doesn't care. So, life moves on.

There isn't anything complex about this, never was.

My take is, this won't ever end for Russia unless the take care of it right now. There can be no future Ukrainians, meaning the ones that don't want to move West should be liquidated. (That is sad to think about, but that is where this is heading imo)

 

[LouderVol]

The Russians have been warning the United States for over 25 years, its in the Congressional Record that has already been posted. It has nothing to do with the Soviet Union. Putin was moonlighting as a taxi cab driver. At the end of the day, the United States doesn't care. So, life moves on.

There isn't anything complex about this, never was.

My take is, this won't ever end for Russia unless the take care of it right now. There can be no future Ukrainians, meaning the ones that don't want to move West should be liquidated. (That is sad to think about, but that is where this is heading imo)

why wouldn't it ever end for the Russians if they stopped fighting? You really think Ukraine or the west is going to march into Russia? NATO has had plenty of opportunities to march into Russia and never once taken the opportunity. NATO has existed longer than Russia has, remember they aren't the Soviet Union, and has bothered neither the Soviets nor the Russians.

what changed with Ukraine vs the previous 25 years? did I miss them joining NATO? did I miss the other NATO nations getting together to formally approve the plan, and the Russians had to launch a desperate attack to stall it before it could happen?

 

[LSU-SIU]

why wouldn't it ever end for the Russians if they stopped fighting? You really think Ukraine or the west is going to march into Russia? NATO has had plenty of opportunities to march into Russia and never once taken the opportunity. NATO has existed longer than Russia has, remember they aren't the Soviet Union, and has bothered neither the Soviets nor the Russians.

what changed with Ukraine vs the previous 25 years? did I miss them joining NATO? did I miss the other NATO nations getting together to formally approve the plan, and the Russians had to launch a desperate attack to stall it before it could happen?

Same reason its still going on today.

what changed with Ukraine vs the previous 25 years? did I miss them joining NATO? did I miss the other NATO nations getting together to formally approve the plan, and the Russians had to launch a desperate attack to stall it before it could happen?

Same thing they were doing in the 90s - expansion of NATO with the other countries at a constant rate and sudo NATO with Ukraine. Why do you think the U.S. was supply them with all those weapons? Why is the U.S. there now supplying all this?

You don't like the answer, but the answer isn't any different than what it was in the 90s. Even Congress discussed what the plan was and how it could backfire, see Congressional Record.

You are really wanting to argue something that was openly admitted 25+ years ago. That seems like a waste of time. All of that is meaningless at this point.

 

[BeardedVol]

Same reason its still going on today.



Same thing they were doing in the 90s - expansion of NATO with the other countries at a constant rate and sudo NATO with Ukraine. Why do you think the U.S. was supply them with all those weapons? Why is the U.S. there now supplying all this?

You don't like the answer, but the answer isn't any different than what it was in the 90s. Even Congress discussed what the plan was and how it could backfire, see Congressional Record.

You are really wanting to argue something that was openly admitted 25+ years ago. That seems like a waste of time. All of that is meaningless at this point.

The US was not supplying Ukraine with weapons in the 90s.

We didn't even supply them with anything of significant consequence after Russia began the invasion in 2014.



It wasn't until Russia escalated the invasion in 2022 that we provided any significant military aid to Ukraine.

Repeating a lie, will not make it true.

 

[LouderVol]

Same reason its still going on today.



Same thing they were doing in the 90s - expansion of NATO with the other countries at a constant rate and sudo NATO with Ukraine. Why do you think the U.S. was supply them with all those weapons? Why is the U.S. there now supplying all this?

You don't like the answer, but the answer isn't any different than what it was in the 90s. Even Congress discussed what the plan was and how it could backfire, see Congressional Record.

You are really wanting to argue something that was openly admitted 25+ years ago. That seems like a waste of time. All of that is meaningless at this point.

the US giving them weapons now has to deal with the Budapest Memorandum, not NATO membership.

what constant rate? formed in 1949, first expansion in 52 (3 years), next expansion '55 a nice consistent 3 years. so next expansion must have been in 60, or maybe '61 to give some room right? Nope. '82 (27 years), well maybe they get back to their 3 year ways. next expansion wasn't until '99, so 17 years, which is a lot closer to the "consistent" three years than before. that is also at least 7 years after each of those nations gained their freedom. next round was '04, so pretty close to that three. then back to '09, which is 5 years, so thats probably NATO getting tired and inefficient. but then '17 for 8 years later, 2020, back to that 3 years, '23, oops thats that three years again, and then they pull a fast one and get sweden in '24, less than a year later. seems like NATO hit their groove again.

but somehow in all that expedited expansion Ukraine never joined. not back in 2008, not in 2014 when the Americans allegedly took over, not in 2022 when the Russians fully invaded. hmmm, its almost like Russia's worry about Ukraine is unjustified.

 

[LSU-SIU]

the US giving them weapons now has to deal with the Budapest Memorandum, not NATO membership.

what constant rate? formed in 1949, first expansion in 52 (3 years), next expansion '55 a nice consistent 3 years. so next expansion must have been in 60, or maybe '61 to give some room right? Nope. '82 (27 years), well maybe they get back to their 3 year ways. next expansion wasn't until '99, so 17 years, which is a lot closer to the "consistent" three years than before. that is also at least 7 years after each of those nations gained their freedom. next round was '04, so pretty close to that three. then back to '09, which is 5 years, so thats probably NATO getting tired and inefficient. but then '17 for 8 years later, 2020, back to that 3 years, '23, oops thats that three years again, and then they pull a fast one and get sweden in '24, less than a year later. seems like NATO hit their groove again.

but somehow in all that expedited expansion Ukraine never joined. not back in 2008, not in 2014 when the Americans allegedly took over, not in 2022 when the Russians fully invaded. hmmm, its almost like Russia's worry about Ukraine is unjustified.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union and prior agreements. This was discussed at length, warnings were given since that time even pre-Putin, the U.S. military briefed Congress as to how this could backfire, Congress had hearings in which it was openly discussed. NATO has continuously expanded since that time, and used Ukraine. The U.S. military briefed Congress that if open war happened that the current weapons would serve little to no purpose.

I'm not sure what you are going on about. Its in the Congressional Record, heck, I saw some of the hearings on it live back in the 90s.

Congress was briefed on the ramifications of it, this is nothing new. Not even sure what you are going on about. Not only was the U.S. warned, there is public record of the legislative branch being brief by the executive branch as to what was real possibilities of this mindset.

The United States has known for at least 26 years, if not longer what could potentially happen due to their policies. They were right.

The only thing that matters now, is how much the Ukrainians lose out of all these ramifications. Possibly everything.

 

[BeardedVol]

Since the fall of the Soviet Union and prior agreements. This was discussed at length, warnings were given since that time even pre-Putin, the U.S. military briefed Congress as to how this could backfire, Congress had hearings in which it was openly discussed. NATO has continuously expanded since that time, and used Ukraine. The U.S. military briefed Congress that if open war happened that the current weapons would serve little to no purpose.

I'm not sure what you are going on about. Its in the Congressional Record, heck, I saw some of the hearings on it live.

Congress was briefed on the ramifications of it, this is nothing new. Not even sure what you are going on about. Not only was the U.S. warned, there is public record of the legislative branch being brief by the executive branch as to was real possibilities.

It's been explained to you ad nauseum that Ukraine didn't have a MAP, and that France and Germany both vetoed Ukrainian membership in NATO in 2008, and it wasn't brought back up again.

Ukraine was no closer to joining NATO in 2014 when Russia invaded, than they were in 2008.

It wasn't until 2/24/2022 that NATO membership for Ukraine was even considered.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

My take is, this won't ever end for Russia unless the take care of it right now. There can be no future Ukrainians, meaning the ones that don't want to move West should be liquidated. (That is sad to think about, but that is where this is heading imo)

My fear is that just like the Nazis managed to migrate to The West after WWII, we are going to have these Ukrainian nationalists running round here and forming voting blocs and trying to influence our foreign policy towards Russia. Don't be surprised in 5 years if we don't have an AIPAC-esque entity in the US with a focus on creating tensions with Russia. And if that happens, then the Russians will always have a threat of these nationalists engaging in some sort of terror operation or conflict.

 

[LSU-SIU]

My fear is that just like the Nazis managed to migrate to The West after WWII, we are going to have these Ukrainian nationalists running round here and forming voting blocs and trying to influence our foreign policy towards Russia. Don't be surprised in 5 years if we don't have an AIPAC-esque entity in the US with a focus on creating tensions with Russia. And if that happens, then the Russians will always have a threat of these nationalists engaging in some sort of terror operation or conflict.

The Russia is the baddies(my enemy) has been fed to me my whole life. Then one day I was like, what the hell have the done to me or my life or this country. Not much of anything that I could come up with.

There always has to be something to keep the war machine alive.

I mean the whole Russia hoax thing, literally big parts of the government were conspiring against a future President and President to come up with all that nonsense. Nobody is in jail or anything.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

It was all part of the plan...

Overextending and Unbalancing Russia - RAND Corporation (2019)

One thing I noticed in this link is that the US loves to use/train women to be cannon fodder. We saw the Ukrainians early on in the SMO posting stories about training women/babushkas and all kinds of despicable nonsense.

"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal."
Henry Kissinger

This is what we do to our "friends"/proxies.

 

[McDad]

We knew what it would take. We were literally told by their leader where the red line was. We just had to get a Ukranian govt to go along with it. Their rep for corruption was earned

No idea what you're referencing.

Which leader? Which line? Where is this documented?

 

[dalton_vol]

Lol, you don't actually know what a "proxy war" entails, do you?

Is the war in Ukraine a proxy conflict? | Feature from King's College London

GERAINT HUGHES: Ukraine’s western backers were accused by Russia of waging a proxy war, but is this just propaganda or is it a genuine academic debate?

www.kcl.ac.uk

If you're supplying all the weapons and hookers to a foreign army, to fight your enemy, I'd say it's a proxy war. If you're giving intelligence to that army, you're fighting a proxy war. I'd also say we have advisors in Ukraine advising and help spending our tax dollars

 

[BeardedVol]

If you're supplying all the weapons and hookers to a foreign army, to fight your enemy, I'd say it's a proxy war. If you're giving intelligence to that army, you're fighting a proxy war. I'd also say we have advisors in Ukraine advising and help spending our tax dollars

There's nothing "proxy" about Ukraine defending themselves from Russia's actual invasion of their country, no matter what Tucker Carlson tells you.

 

[Velo Vol]

Simple enough.

 

[NorthDallas40]

It was all part of the plan...

Overextending and Unbalancing Russia - RAND Corporation (2019)

One thing I noticed in this link is that the US loves to use/train women to be cannon fodder. We saw the Ukrainians early on in the SMO posting stories about training women/babushkas and all kinds of despicable nonsense.

"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal."
Henry Kissinger

This is what we do to our "friends"/proxies.

View attachment 648488

If only your orc buddies hadn’t invaded and made them chose to pick up arms to defend their homeland and repel the orcs. You always seem to forget that basic fact

ETA: OMG AAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

 

[McDad]

If you're supplying all the weapons and hookers to a foreign army, to fight your enemy, I'd say it's a proxy war. If you're giving intelligence to that army, you're fighting a proxy war. I'd also say we have advisors in Ukraine advising and help spending our tax dollars

Was Ukraine invaded or not?

I think we should let them fight their own war. Let their European neighbors help, too.

But they were invaded and have the right to defend themselves.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Simple enough.

Yup. I've been saying it for some time, eventually the escalation will be so significant that there might be no terms of surrender which will be accepted other than GTFO. Seems simple to me, Russia has to push all of them to Poland, if they don't like the relocation program than they can take the liquidation route.

Russia can either settle it once and for all now, or it will be the thorn that never goes away. imo

 

[MontyPython]

It's not laughable or absurd if you go far enough back. This was absolutely pushed by the west and the Ukrainians are proxies

I'm also a grown up and don't worry about or use the like feature

Full on stupid on your part bro.

 

[MontyPython]

There's nothing "proxy" about Ukraine defending themselves from Russia's actual invasion of their country, no matter what Tucker Carlson tells you.

Thank you.

Peeps be drinking the Kool Aid.

 

[BreatheUT]

It's June 14 2024 and Beijing Biden's foreign policy still stinks.