Orangeslice13, a blessing to those around him…..Again

[BigO95]

Slice, what do you think about these verses? I'm not debating nor am I trying to have a discussion, I would just like to see your thoughts....

1st Tim 4:1¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

 

[jvol1]

circumcision was not eliminated. The belief that it was required for in the custom of Moses was added tradition and Paul was clarifying that it was not. Salvation is by grace. Always has been. Circumcision is evidence of faith. (James. Faith without works is death) Paul circumcised Timmothy post Galatians.

Good stuff

I’d need clarification on the homosexuality comment you made to reply.

Both paul and leviticus agree that homosexuality is wrong, but jesus commandment to do unto others would seem to supercede those prohibitions. Agree or disagree?

I tend to see salvation as being achieved by atonement, right actions to balance the scale for the wrong. Concerning circumcision, I would say that it's an empty ceremony that doesnt impact ones moral standing one way or the other, and hence not necessary for salvation.

Curiously, I've read some evangelical writings which contemplate the jesus myth as removing moral sins, thoughts?

 

[Orangeslice13]

Both paul and leviticus agree that homosexuality is wrong, but jesus commandment to do unto others would seem to supercede those prohibitions. Agree or disagree?

I tend to see salvation as being achieved by atonement, right actions to balance the scale for the wrong. Concerning circumcision, I would say that it's an empty ceremony that doesnt impact ones moral standing one way or the other, and hence not necessary for salvation.

Curiously, I've read some evangelical writings which contemplate the jesus myth as removing moral sins, thoughts?

I would not agree that Yeshua changed anything from Torah at the cross. The law is still the definition of sin and/or right and wrong. Now in regards to your question I do think that messiah taught a very different concept in regards to teaching than what you (general you, not you personally) receive from most denominations.
Yeshua was repetitive in his teachings on judgement. Everyone is responsible for themselves at their judgement before YHWH. He also clearly taught that the standard that you use on others will be the standard used on you. With that in mind I clearly believe that I should apply the word to my life and walk humble before the G-d of my fathers. I will share my beliefs of what I believe is a sin (for me) I will not cast judgement on others for my opinion is irrelevant to them at their judgement just as their opinion of me is irrelevant at mine. It’s actually written that it’s worse for those who teach others to break the law than it is for those who judge only themselves. Now on to the homosexual behavior question. It’s pretty clear that sexual relations was for reproductive purposes. That is its intended purpose. That would make homosexuality or its sex a “sin” Sex for fun is not the intent but is tolerated by the law. It’s actually possible to be sinful in your sexual relationship with your wife. It’s also clear that we are all born into sin. Science agrees that for some homosexuality is written on their dna. With that in mind, I don’t have homosexual tendencies so therefore not my sin. I have plenty others that I’m sure homosexuals don’t have. I’ll let them worry about their sins and I’ll worry about mine. Being homosexual doesn’t keep you out of heaven anymore than any other sin. Honestly there will be a lot of “straight “ people expecting to get in and messiah will cast them out with the accusation of being lawless (Mathew 7)

Yeshua did not remove one single sin. Paul said your condemnation was removed at the cross. Not your guilt. Your guilt was forgiven.

Again. Good stuff

 

[Orangeslice13]

Slice, what do you think about these verses? I'm not debating nor am I trying to have a discussion, I would just like to see your thoughts....

1st Tim 4:1¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

In the past you and I have not been able to have these conversations.
But short answer.
Genesis defined what is “food” and what is “meats”
Pork isn’t available as either.

Eating pork doesn’t make you unrighteous. Just a sinner…..which we all are already anyway.

Paul “do we sin so that grace will abound? Heaven forbid….”

 

[BigO95]

In the past you and I have not been able to have these conversations.
But short answer.
Genesis defined what is “food” and what is “meats”
Pork isn’t available as either.

Eating pork doesn’t make you unrighteous. Just a sinner…..which we all are already anyway.

Paul “do we sin so that grace will abound? Heaven forbid….”

Thank you for letting me pick your brain.... I personally stand on the other side but it's always good to see a different perspective.

 

[McDad]

Eating pork is a sin. By definition Torah says it’s not food.
Psalms is clear and repetitive. The law is established and in heaven. The law is eternal. The law is the essence of G-d. G-d is not a man that he would lie or change. So Torah law ….according to both messiah and Paul…..is still the definition of sin. None of the added crap and tradition of man that’s found in Talmud is sin, but what G-d defines as sin and says is forever is still sin.

Now again “sin” has become a loaded word. Eating pork is a minor violation as the G-d that created your body knows it’s bad for you. The law is given as a “blessing for those who believe and a curse for those who don’t “. If you follow the law you will be healthier and happier. Eating pork doesn’t mean you’re going to hell. (There is no hell btw).

Now let’s talk about how it gets more complicated. I’m staying with my adopted brother this week. His wife is catholic and loves us very much. I don’t discuss my BS with her because it would not be appropriate. For breakfast she made eggs toast and Bacon. In my study refusing the hospitality of someone who loves me would be the greatest sin so we all ate it and smiled. I feel no guilt for that sin as there is no condemnation in it. Just like all things, sometimes “sin” is all the options so you do your best and walk humble before your creator. Ask for forgiveness in the things you know you did and for the things you don’t (palms 119) and trust in the atonement that messiah provided for you.
This is what I believe you do.
We just simply disagree and we both can’t be right. Which is ok.

Shalom my friend
(Which is to say, good conversation and not that we’re done having it)

My thoughts on pork and sin have to do with Peter's vision described in Acts 10. I am sure you are aware of the vision and have discussed it with other's. Interested in your thoughts on it.

I agree with your hospitality and sin conundrum. I believe it would be sinful for me to force you to eat pork, or make fun of your beliefs about it. I also think I would be displeasing to Our Father if I knew of your beliefs and offered you pork anyway.

 

[McDad]

I enjoy these conversations. If I sound like I’m talking down to anyone in any way I apologize. You’re responsible for your beliefs before your creator. I’m ok if we disagree. I’m simply sharing my thoughts and not trying to convince/convert anyone. That’s G-ds job.

You're no more condescending and preachy on this discussion than you are with every other conversation.

LOL.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Thank you for letting me pick your brain.... I personally stand on the other side but it's always good to see a different perspective.

I stand alone on a lot of things.
And I firmly believe the G-d of my father’s isn’t looking for technical reasons to exclude people from righteousness.
I believe that much will be forgiven to those who seek G-d without Judging others. We’re all guilty. We should focus on ourselves

 

[Orangeslice13]

My thoughts on pork and sin have to do with Peter's vision described in Acts 10. I am sure you are aware of the vision and have discussed it with other's. Interested in your thoughts on it.

I agree with your hospitality and sin conundrum. I believe it would be sinful for me to force you to eat pork, or make fun of your beliefs about it. I also think I would be displeasing to Our Father if I knew of your beliefs and offered you pork anyway.

Peter himself says the vision wasn’t about food as the things he was told to eat was never made clean. The vision was about gentiles, who Jews were treating as unclean but G-d had never said that. Exodus clearly says that any stranger (gentile) who sojourns with (follows YHWH) is to be treated as a natural born Hebrew. If Peter was to eat those things he’d be making the same mistake in reverse. Gentiles were never unclean and rats snakes and pork were never clean.

I appreciate that you are well read enough to know why you believe as opposed to the “someone told me “ situation. I believe you do well.

 

[Orangeslice13]

You're no more condescending and preachy on this discussion than you are with every other conversation.

LOL.

May the G-d of A, I , and J forgive me in Yeshuas name.


I had no idea I was being that big of an ass.

Lololol

 

[McDad]

Peter himself says the vision wasn’t about food as the things he was told to eat was never made clean. The vision was about gentiles, who Jews were treating as unclean but G-d had never said that. Exodus clearly says that any stranger (gentile) who sojourns with (follows YHWH) is to be treated as a natural born Hebrew. If Peter was to eat those things he’d be making the same mistake in reverse. Gentiles were never unclean and rats snakes and pork were never clean.

I appreciate that you are well read enough to know why you believe as opposed to the “someone told me “ situation. I believe you do well.

That's what my other Jewish friends...and my Christian friends who don't eat pork say as well. I cannot fault them for their understanding. Peter does as you say at Cornelius's house.

It is a bit of poetic license, I have taken with that vision. I try to make sense of a vision about animals from The Spirit and not extrapolate the human significance as well as the animal significance. After all, 6,000 years ago I was the unclean animal in the eyes of Jewish leaders.

 

[McDad]

May the G-d of A, I , and J forgive me in Yeshuas name.


I had no idea I was being that big of an ass.

Lololol

Nothing to forgive if no offense made.

 

[Orangeslice13]

That's what my other Jewish friends...and my Christian friends who don't eat pork say as well. I cannot fault them for their understanding. Peter does as you say at Cornelius's house.

It is a bit of poetic license, I have taken with that vision. I try to make sense of a vision about animals from The Spirit and not extrapolate the human significance as well as the animal significance. After all, 6,000 years ago I was the unclean animal in the eyes of Jewish leaders.

the organization of a church will absolutely go astray. Jew, Christian, it doesn’t matter. That’s why I concern myself with what I believe and get to the bottom of that. I believe you do that as well

 

[McDad]

the organization of a church will absolutely go astray. Jew, Christian, it doesn’t matter. That’s why I concern myself with what I believe and get to the bottom of that. I believe you do that as well

You said in reply to another poster the Torah excluded pork from both the food category AND the meat category.

Can you point me to that so I can check it out?

 

[Orangeslice13]

You said in reply to another poster the Torah excluded pork from both the food category AND the meat category.

Can you point me to that so I can check it out?

Sure.
Lev 11:7

And the pig, for though it has a divided hoof, and so it shows a split hoof, it does not chew cud; it is unclean to you. 8 You shall not eat any of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.

Duet 14
These are the animals that you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 [c]the deer, the gazelle, the roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope, and the mountain sheep. 6 And any animal that has a divided hoof and has itshoofs split in two, and [d]chews the cud, among the animals, [e]that animal you may eat.7 However, you are not to eat these among the ones that [f]chew the cud, or among those that have the hoof divided in [g]two: the camel, the [h]rabbit, and the rock hyrax, for though they chew the cud, they do not have a divided hoof; they are unclean to you. 8 And the pig, because it has a divided hoof but does not chew the cud, it is unclean for you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, nor touch their carcasses.


Point of clarification. Pork is not listed anywhere as a meat in the entire bible. It is not specifically called out as “not meat for you” just not listed as something that’s available.

 

[Tin Man]

For a few thousand years, avoiding pig flesh was prudent for one’s health.

 

[Tin Man]

For one, I enjoy Slice’s earnest conversation, even when he’s being an ass (by his own estimation).

 

[Tin Man]

Earnest Slice > Shizzle Slinging Slice

 

[VolNExile]

Bunnies chew their cud? Off to the internet I went.

Turns out they don’t per se, but they have a similar process that achieves the same function - the breaking down of tough fibers in their diet by running it through the system again. (It’s pretty eww-y, so google at your own risk.)

 

[BigO95]

I stand alone on a lot of things.
And I firmly believe the G-d of my father’s isn’t looking for technical reasons to exclude people from righteousness.
I believe that much will be forgiven to those who seek G-d without Judging others. We’re all guilty. We should focus on ourselves

We are definitely all lawbreakers and there's no question that God wants everyone to be saved! I also agree that we should take a close look at ourselves and do our best to keep ourselves straight.

 

[NorCalVol67]

I like rabbit. Never had camel. Don’t know what the hell rock hyrax is.

But I have sinned often eating pig. In Memphis it is a sin not to eat pig.

Sorry Slice, I held off a while without being a dumbass, but I had to revert to my normal self.

 

[VolNExile]

@Orangeslice13 I suppose that I had always thought (insofar as I ever actually thought about it) that such things as circumcision and keeping kosher were means of honoring and publicly professing one’s faith in G-d, as opposed to sin. “Sin” being reserved for actions that disrespected or hurt others, contrary to respecting and loving them as fellow creatures of G-d.

Is that sort of like what you were saying above, or am I as confused about this as I think I am?

 

[Orangeslice13]

I like rabbit. Never had camel. Don’t know what the hell rock hyrax is.

But I have sinned often eating pig. In Memphis it is a sin not to eat pig.

Sorry Slice, I held off a while without being a dumbass, but I had to revert to my normal self.

No problem. My way doesn’t have to be everyone else’s way.
I don’t want others ideas enforced on me. I’ll avoid judging you and worry about myself. Thats enough worry for me. Especially lately

 

[Orangeslice13]

@Orangeslice13 I suppose that I had always thought (insofar as I ever actually thought about it) that such things as circumcision and keeping kosher were means of honoring and publicly professing one’s faith in G-d, as opposed to sin. “Sin” being reserved for actions that disrespected or hurt others, contrary to respecting and loving them as fellow creatures of G-d.

Is that sort of like what you were saying above, or am I as confused about this as I think I am?

I’m at dinner and have a long answer later.
For now I believe you’re on the right track.

 

[VolNExile]

I’m at dinner and have a long answer later.
For now I believe you’re on the right track.

Enjoy your medium-rare split-hooved cud-chewer!